Promotion and PRF Information

[Fuzz]

I commissioned 27 Apr 07, EAD'd 27 May 07 and USAFA graduated around 30 May. I got to keep my 27 Apr DOR, as well as two other guys because we EAD'd before the USAFA graduation. Everyone else in my ROTC class had midpoint DORs.

I think for some reason if you commission before May 1st then you keep you DOR. My entire UPT class was all guys who commissioned and EAD'd late April or early May, and the guys that commissioned in Apr kept theirs and everyone that commissioned in May ended up with the same DOR as the Academy.

[Spartacus]

I commissioned 27 Apr 07, EAD'd 27 May 07 and USAFA graduated around 30 May. I got to keep my 27 Apr DOR, as well as two other guys because we EAD'd before the USAFA graduation. Everyone else in my ROTC class had midpoint DORs.

I don't have the reg in front of me but the AF likes to play a lot of games with this. I commissioned beginning of May and was on AD at my first base by 20 May and the AF still put my DOR as 31 May. I was also told that if you are ROTC that your DOR is somewhere in between your commissioning date and your EAD unless you are in the month of May. In that case if you commission in May and enter AD in May it still won't matter. The reg will make it so that your DOR becomes 31 May to put you behind the AFA guys. Seems like a load of B.S. and I know more than one person that this has stung.

[Skitzo]

I am a 04 grad from riddle and my line number is 520. I graduated in the spring.

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[olevelo]

My DOR is 29 Dec... Commissioned 13 Dec and EAD ~13 Jan (ROTC) so there is some truth to the halfway argument.

That makes me the literal cutoff for my year group. Not sure how that might affect me in the future.

You just end up with pretty much the last line number. But you'll promote to O-4 the same day as the rest of the last group, which could be anywhere from 100-500 folks depending how they do it.

[stract]

they have 9 tie-breakers, is this because they actually needed them at one point, or someone got bored? Reverse SSN with lowest number winning...I supposed if you and your twin were equally ranked at the Zoo, then that one would come into play.

[albertschu]

I don't have the reg in front of me but the AF likes to play a lot of games with this. I commissioned beginning of May and was on AD at my first base by 20 May and the AF still put my DOR as 31 May. I was also told that if you are ROTC that your DOR is somewhere in between your commissioning date and your EAD unless you are in the month of May. In that case if you commission in May and enter AD in May it still won't matter. The reg will make it so that your DOR becomes 31 May to put you behind the AFA guys. Seems like a load of B.S. and I know more than one person that this has stung.

Might be worth checking the reg. Sounds like it might have been misapplied in your case.

they have 9 tie-breakers, is this because they actually needed them at one point, or someone got bored? Reverse SSN with lowest number winning...I supposed if you and your twin were equally ranked at the Zoo, then that one would come into play.

Or two non-priors in same OTS class that happen to have been born on the same day.

[Spartacus]

Might be worth checking the reg. Sounds like it might have been misapplied in your case.

I brought this up to AFPC a year or so after commissioning. They said the reg was applied correctly in my case. Here is what DoDI 1310.01, August 23, 2013 says:

5. DATE OF RANK OF SECOND LIEUTENANTS OR ENSIGNS APPOINTED IN MAY OR

JUNE NOT THROUGH THE SERVICE ACADEMIES. The date of rank of second lieutenants

or ensigns appointed in accordance with section 2106 or 2107 of Reference (f) in May or June of

any year who enter active duty during either of those months is the date that the class of cadets or

midshipmen graduated from one of the Service Academies. Such appointees who enter active

duty before the graduation date of the appropriate Service Academy may take precedence over

academy graduates. Within such groups of section 2106 and 2107 of Reference (f) appointees,

distinguished military graduates may take precedence.

So, I think the interpretation is that if you commission in May and EAD before the academy cadets commission then you "may" get an earlier DOR as a 2Lt than the academy types if you were a DG.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Spartacus

[albertschu]

I brought this up to AFPC a year or so after commissioning. They said the reg was applied correctly in my case. Here is what DoDI 1310.01, August 23, 2013 says:

5. DATE OF RANK OF SECOND LIEUTENANTS OR ENSIGNS APPOINTED IN MAY OR

JUNE NOT THROUGH THE SERVICE ACADEMIES. The date of rank of second lieutenants

or ensigns appointed in accordance with section 2106 or 2107 of Reference (f) in May or June of

any year who enter active duty during either of those months is the date that the class of cadets or

midshipmen graduated from one of the Service Academies. Such appointees who enter active

duty before the graduation date of the appropriate Service Academy may take precedence over

academy graduates. Within such groups of section 2106 and 2107 of Reference (f) appointees,

distinguished military graduates may take precedence.

So, I think the interpretation is that if you commission in May and EAD before the academy cadets commission then you "may" get an earlier DOR as a 2Lt than the academy types if you were a DG.

It looks like they have "fixed the glitch". ROTC grads that went active prior to USAFA graduation used to get earlier DORs.

[Right Seat Driver]

It looks like they have "fixed the glitch". ROTC grads that went active prior to USAFA graduation used to get earlier DORs.

I don't see a problem with this. If you EAD while USAFA guys are still cadets, then the earlier DOR should stand.

[Fuzz]

Except foe those of us that were already on AD for 2-3 weeks by the time they commission. If you EAD May 1st your DOR gets moved back almost a month to match the USAFA DOR.

[Right Seat Driver]

Except foe those of us that were already on AD for 2-3 weeks by the time they commission. If you EAD May 1st your DOR gets moved back almost a month to match the USAFA DOR.

Right. What is the problem of keeping your original DOR If you were a ROTC grad that was on AD for 2-3 weeks as a 2d Lt before the USAFA guys graduated? You were a 2d Lt when they were still cadets and should keep your original DOR and not a halfway date the MPF draws from the lottery.

[Fuzz]

Right. What is the problem of keeping your original DOR If you were a ROTC grad that was on AD for 2-3 weeks as a 2d Lt before the USAFA guys graduated? You were a 2d Lt when they were still cadets and should keep your original DOR and not a halfway date the MPF draws from the lottery.

5. DATE OF RANK OF SECOND LIEUTENANTS OR ENSIGNS APPOINTED IN MAY OR

JUNE NOT THROUGH THE SERVICE ACADEMIES. The date of rank of second lieutenants

or ensigns appointed in accordance with section 2106 or 2107 of Reference (f) in May or June of

any year who enter active duty during either of those months is the date that the class of cadets or

midshipmen graduated from one of the Service Academies

That's not what the reg says, me and several of my buddies EAD'd within days of commissioning in early may, however because of the reg our DORs were pushed back to the end of May to match the academy Lts' DOR. My buddies that EAD'd in April were able to keep their April DOR.

[Right Seat Driver]

5. DATE OF RANK OF SECOND LIEUTENANTS OR ENSIGNS APPOINTED IN MAY OR

JUNE NOT THROUGH THE SERVICE ACADEMIES. The date of rank of second lieutenants

or ensigns appointed in accordance with section 2106 or 2107 of Reference (f) in May or June of

any year who enter active duty during either of those months is the date that the class of cadets or

midshipmen graduated from one of the Service Academies

That's not what the reg says, me and several of my buddies EAD'd within days of commissioning in early may, however because of the reg our DORs were pushed back to the end of May to match the academy Lts' DOR. My buddies that EAD'd in April were able to keep their April DOR.

Alright, I looked for further references. What is the definition of "appointed?" Example, commissioned in April and EAD'd in May.

BTW, when I in-processed my DOR was initially half-way between commissioning and EAD (which was still before USAFA graduated), but it was adjusted to my commissioning date a few months afterwards. I also received an automated e-mail informing me of my DOR change as well as a notification stating my Reserve ROTC commission was now a Regular commission. Which I think happened to everyone after 2005ish.

Perhaps DoD 1310.01 pre-2013 read differently.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Right Seat Driver

[SPiF]

5. DATE OF RANK OF SECOND LIEUTENANTS OR ENSIGNS APPOINTED IN MAY OR

JUNE NOT THROUGH THE SERVICE ACADEMIES. The date of rank of second lieutenants

or ensigns appointed in accordance with section 2106 or 2107 of Reference (f) in May or June of

any year who enter active duty during either of those months is the date that the class of cadets or

midshipmen graduated from one of the Service Academies

That's not what the reg says, me and several of my buddies EAD'd within days of commissioning in early may, however because of the reg our DORs were pushed back to the end of May to match the academy Lts' DOR. My buddies that EAD'd in April were able to keep their April DOR.

This. I commissioned in early May, and was on AD about 2 1/2 weeks later. Sometime in September they adjusted my DOR, which was after I came on AD (I was about 3-4 days into ASBC TDY enroute to my first duty station when the Academy graduated that year). And that's the DOR they've used to calculate promotions ever since.

Another guy I was on casual with was in the same situation, same timeline, and CPTS actually went after his pay from that time. How could he have been paid from 26 May if his DOR is 30 May? They eventually gave him his money back...after withholding an entire paycheck from him to "correct the debt." (They took the pay, TDY money, and PCS money for everything that occurred before 30 May).

[Skitzo]

Wow somehow I got a line number before the academy guys. Maybe I shouldn't be saying that.

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[Fuzz]

Alright, I looked for further references. What is the definition of "appointed?" Example, commissioned in April and EAD'd in May.

BTW, when I in-processed my DOR was initially half-way between commissioning and EAD (which was still before USAFA graduated), but it was adjusted to my commissioning date a few months afterwards. I also received an automated e-mail informing me of my DOR change as well as a notification stating my Reserve ROTC commission was now a Regular commission. Which I think happened to everyone after 2005ish.

Perhaps DoD 1310.01 pre-2013 read differently.

Appointed I believe is the technical term for commissioned, sounds like you slipped through the cracks.

This. I commissioned in early May, and was on AD about 2 1/2 weeks later. Sometime in September they adjusted my DOR, which was after I came on AD (I was about 3-4 days into ASBC TDY enroute to my first duty station when the Academy graduated that year). And that's the DOR they've used to calculate promotions ever since.

Another guy I was on casual with was in the same situation, same timeline, and CPTS actually went after his pay from that time. How could he have been paid from 26 May if his DOR is 30 May? They eventually gave him his money back...after withholding an entire paycheck from him to "correct the debt." (They took the pay, TDY money, and PCS money for everything that occurred before 30 May).

Yeah my buddies and I were on AD within days of commissioning, one guy EAD'd the day after we commissioned, me and the other guys were 2-3 days after. Thankfully we didn't run into any pay issues, just happened to notice it when I was looking a vMPF one day that my DOR had been changed to the USAFA graduation date.

[albertschu]

I don't see a problem with this. If you EAD while USAFA guys are still cadets, then the earlier DOR should stand.

I agree. It used to be that way.

Perhaps DoD 1310.01 pre-2013 read differently.

Yep.

I just realized I haven't been drinking enough. (I've fixed that glitch.)

If you EAD prior to the academy graduation, and they set your your DOR to the academy graduation date, you will still get a lower line number than grads because you will have an earlier TAFCSD.

[Cell Dweller]

Bump

With all the talk about force management, has there been anything going on with the Major board that's supposed to happen at the end of the year? It seems like every year prior, the promotion board to O-4 has been a hot topic around all the bases, but with the Force Mgmt fiasco going on, it seems like the intel on the promotion boards has dried up.

[zach braff]

Bump

With all the talk about force management, has there been anything going on with the Major board that's supposed to happen at the end of the year? It seems like every year prior, the promotion board to O-4 has been a hot topic around all the bases, but with the Force Mgmt fiasco going on, it seems like the intel on the promotion boards has dried up.

Haven't heard a thing - let's get some RUMINT started!

- Masters Degrees? Masked or Unmasked? What's it gonna be?

- Promotion %... Same as previous years (~90%)?

- School slots... Still top 20%? Reduced to allow some candidates to go in the future?

zb

edit fer speling

Edited March 30, 2014 by zach braff

[USAF Pilot]

Can't speak to the Maj's board but the Lt Col Line of the AF just got done recently. I think those results will be telling in how much their promotion rate takes a dive. DP allocations went from 60% to 40% which leads me to believe that the promotion rates will probably also go down. It seems to reason that if Lt Col promotion rates drop by say 10-20% that the Maj's promotion rates will likely be lower too. I think promotion rates will be influx/lower than usual for all of 2014 and 2015 (except for maybe medical) as the AF tries to work its way through the current manning issues.

[Guest ThatGuy]

The term "Top Tier" in an OPR is considered a third level stratification correct? Does the term mean or help you during a board if there isn't a number after it to back it up?

Can moving to a new MWS prior to your board hurt you? As in moving from AC to copilot.

[FBomb]

The term "Top Tier" in an OPR is considered a third level stratification correct? Does the term mean or help you during a board if there isn't a number after it to back it up?

Phrases don't help you on boards. Concrete strats do.

[Herk Driver]

The term "Top Tier" in an OPR is considered a third level stratification correct? Does the term mean or help you during a board if there isn't a number after it to back it up?

Can moving to a new MWS prior to your board hurt you? As in moving from AC to copilot.

Agree with Fbomb.

As far as a second MDS, I think it depends. Typically a second MDS helps. Your example says AC to copilot...Is there a reason you were not an IP in the first MDS? That is the question that a board member will ask.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[ak47]

Agree with Fbomb.

As far as a second MDS, I think it depends. Typically a second MDS helps. Your example says AC to copilot...Is there a reason you were not an IP in the first MDS? That is the question that a board member will ask.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

I believe in this instance it will (could?) probably be a third MWS for Slick and some of the other MC-12 guys, since right now we have more questions than answers. Legacy Herk guys maybe or maybe not going to the J, Hog guys going who knows where and all the mobility guys who came here due to 169% manning in their previous communities. Many waiting on May 1, the AF isn't creating any more cockpits...

[BitteEinBit]

That's part of the problem....the boards shouldn't be trying to interpret what may or may not be bad on an OPR. I thought they didn't have time to think about why someone was an IP in one MWS and an FP in the next. Stick to what the OPR actually says instead of trying to interpret what the writer might be trying to say.

There are many reasons why someone would be an IP in one MWS but an FP in another. One example comes from the old Little Rock days back in 2007 when the 41st was still transitioning to the J-model. It was squadron policy to be an FP until one deployment and then you couldn't upgrade to IP until you deployed once as an AC. If someone had shitty timing and just crossflowed from being an IP in another airframe to an FP in the J just prior to their promotion board and some numbnut O-6 tries to interpret why, they'd probably be screwed because the O-6 would get it wrong not knowing how the 41st did their upgrade training. Epic fail. Now fast forward to Ramstein in 2009 when they started transitioning to the J-model and upgraded everyone as soon as they had 50 hours of FP time (LR TR course time included). Same airframe, same crew position, same upgrade...different criteria. (no knocking the Ramstein bubbas, just trying to show perspective).

Rock bottom line...non-rated O-6s (or anyone for that matter) have no business trying to interpret what aircrew progression (or perceived regression) really means. Chances are, they will get it wrong. If someone was an IP and is no longer an IP for performance reasons, their records SHOULD should show some kind of derogatory information...but we don't do that. Everyone gets a trophy in today's Air Force. So we leave it to some jacknut at a promotion board to ask questions about something that isn't even in an individual's records.

Edit to add: Yeah, we aren't creating any more cockpits, we're fixing the pilot shortage without having to train any additional pilots. It is the numbers game. Oh, and by the way, we're still going to do more with less!

Edited April 26, 2014 by BitteEinBit