Holy Formation Batman!

[Guest purplecaddis]

Originally posted by Hacker:

And here I was thinking that the *reason* to fly airplanes close together was to be able to penetrate weather.

<whacks self on foreskull>

[C17Driver]

And just so there isn't any confusion, C-17s can fly in the weather in formation. (As long as the jets are SKE-TCAS equipped)

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Why fly 17 big birds like that in formation around Charleston? The simple answer to that is because they fvckin' can. I think it is sh!t hot. Good on all the maintainers for making it happen.

[C17Driver]

BigIron,

I concur! Kudos to the maintainers! Last time TCM had a large formation (for the WG/CC going away), they called all the maintainers in from their days off (which they weren't compensated for) and even canx some leave.

[Herk Mafia]

Only 17? Whats the big deal?

[Guest Upstater]

Anyobody elese notice the UFO things around the formation?

The aliens are probably just as confused as we are.

[ 21. December 2005, 14:05: Message edited by: Upstater ]

[HeloDude]

Originally posted by Hacker:

And here I was thinking that the *reason* to fly airplanes close together was to be able to penetrate weather.

<whacks self on foreskull>

[dmeg130]

Although I'll say it's pretty cool when we're pushing out of Student Gap at 300' and see an 8-ship wall overhead clearing out the bad guys.

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by HeloDude:

Sometimes the fighter guys forget that there are other types of airframes performing important missions in the Air Force.

Oh crap....Herrrrrreeeeeee we go..... :rolleyes:

[Hacker]

Originally posted by HeloDude:

Sometimes the fighter guys forget that there are other types of airframes performing important missions in the Air Force.

Not following how you make that statement based off my comments. Do you mean something to the effect that fighter guys forget that there are ways to do things other than how they do?

Yep, guilty as charged. But as far as accusing me of thinking fighters are the only kids on the block that matter...well, that's just ignorant.

Doesn't change the fact that the original photo in this thread depicts a ridiculous looking excuse for a 'formation', no matter what airframe you happen to be from.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Hacker:

Doesn't change the fact that the original photo in this thread depicts a ridiculous looking excuse for a 'formation', no matter what airframe you happen to be from.

Hacker,

Sorry but I disagree.

Formations like the one in the photo are not meant to look like formations of pointy nose jets. The C-17 in particular has extra separation requirements due to the vortices produced by the winglets. Obviously airlift formations like the one in the picture are not meant to get folks through the weather, but what might not be obvious is that these formations are not for mutual support either, after all they don’t have anything to support each other with in the form of weapons. Large formations like this are about one thing, mass on the drop zone.

Slick guys help me out here, C-130 formations that use SKE (Station Keeping Equipment – or an electronic container that is used to fly formation in the weather), maintain a 2000’ separation between aircraft, the separation is not a pure nose to tail relationship but is also lateral. The distance provides safety in the weather, but is really based on a delivery standard developed by the U.S. Army. The Army wants to have the capability to put an entire Brigade on the drop zone in one hour. A large formation of C-130’s can accomplish that task. Unfortunately, one drawback of the C-17 is that it cannot. The problem is the increased separation requirements from the wingtip vortices means it takes the C-17 something on the order of 70 minutes to put the same amount of men and material on the drop zone.

Another reason some airdrop formations look “non-standard” is they sometimes purposely fly “ghost” positions. For a formation like the 60 ship beast that was on the way to Haiti, there are obviously spares lined up and ready to go, but once airborne if an aircraft aborts, others don’t necessarily move up and take that position. Usually a large formation will put the heavy equipment on the ground first and drop the people second (for obvious reasons), if an aircraft carrying heavy equipment aborts, the formation may leave that position open so as to maintain drop separation requirements on the ground.

I didn’t mean for this to turn into an airdrop dissertation, but if some airdrop guys started ripping a pointy nose formation without knowing the tactics, procedures, or reasons I am sure you would find a way to tactfully get them the right information.

[GW]

Speaking from the slick Herk side of the house, CH has it pretty much covered. The one thing I would add is that sometimes tail end charlie (and by extension the rest of his element) is offset relative to lead for a reason, X-winds can create quite the "whip effect"** on a 10 mile long formation. I haven't had to fire up the old SKE scope lately but if I recall, 3 to 4 degrees X-track isn't all that uncommon, for a SKE run-in. Of course he could just be out of possition. "Come on Seventeen, tighen it up now!"

All that being said, SKE sucks and should be avoided at all cost, even if it means going non-current.

GW

** Before you make the joke, this is not some sort of perverted formation S&M manuver, so shut it.

[ 21. December 2005, 21:59: Message edited by: GW ]

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by Hacker:

And here I was thinking that the *reason* to fly airplanes close together was to be able to penetrate weather.

<whacks self on foreskull>

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by HeloDude:

Sometimes the fighter guys forget that there are other types of airframes performing important missions in the Air Force.

And sometimes Helo dudes forget that that their helo's are so ugly, that the air simply repels them.

Hoser

[Rocker]

I thought it was the ground that repels them. Otherwise they'd implode or something.

[Flare]

So, the fact that there are 2 echelon formations formed by 3,4,5 & 6,7,8 is totally accidental and everyone else just kinda parks it where they please?

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

Usually a large formation will put the heavy equipment on the ground first and drop the people second (for obvious reasons), if an aircraft carrying heavy equipment aborts, the formation may leave that position open so as to maintain drop separation requirements on the ground.

I didn’t mean for this to turn into an airdrop dissertation, but if some airdrop guys started ripping a pointy nose formation without knowing the tactics, procedures, or reasons I am sure you would find a way to tactfully get them the right information.

Best info I've seen thus far in this thread.

To be honest, my criticism of the formation photo has been entirely sarcastic thus far, as was pointed out by Hoser. Notice I used the phrase "ridiculous looking"? As has been pointed out, I don't know the first f*cking thing about airdrop TTPs, nor the reasons why things are done that way. Why would I? You guys are the experts on it, not me...so long as the iron gets on target (or DZ as the case may be) on time, who am I to care?

I was merely pointing out that the traditional convention for a formation is one in which the airplanes are close together in some geometric relationship. To me, the photo looked like it depicted airplanes that, with the exception of one 2-ship echelon, and two 3-ship echelons, just happened to be in the same piece of sky at the same time.

That was funny ha-ha to me. Guess it wasn't to you humor-impaired guys out there. Not trying to sh*t in the airdrop bowl of wheaties in any way.

[TacAirCoug]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

So, the fact that there are 2 echelon formations formed by 3,4,5 & 6,7,8 is totally accidental and everyone else just kinda parks it where they please?

Wake turbulence MIGHT have something to do with that, but let's be perfectly honest here, folks. The back half of that formation does look like crap. Not to be high and mighty, I have been an offender in my fair share of embarassing formations, but if that were the run-in how many of those guys would be calling a "no-drop?"

[C17Driver]

After looking at the picture a little, it looks like they might be in the middle of a formation change. Perhaps from the standard formation to echelon. But I am in no way sticking up for the formation, I can't figure out every aircraft's position either.

[Guest Kermit]

For those want to know the distances here they are for each element (3 aircraft).

Visual #2 - 2000' apprx 300 right

#3 - 4000' apprx 300 left

#4(element lead) - 6000' inline with #1

SKE (sucks) - #2 4000' long 500' right

#3 8000' long 500' left

#4(element lead) - 12000' inline with #1

Ofcourse that is the standard formation, but hopefully that clears some things up. Who knows what they were doing in the formation at that time. Could be closing in from ske to vis before they come back around to the base. We can not second guess since none of us being there, we dont know. It really sucks getting that many aircraft in a SKE formation since SKE sucks.

[C17Driver]

Not to call you out Kermit, but some of your numbers are off...

Visual lateral is Wingtip separation (most use 180')

#4 in visual would be 12000' aft inline.

Number 4's position is the same in visual and in SKE formation.

[Guest Kermit]

As you can see, I have done lots of airdrop this last year, thanks C17Driver.

[HeloDude]

Originally posted by Hoser:

And sometimes Helo dudes forget that that their helo's are so ugly, that the air simply repels them.

Hoser

[Cooter]

Kermit! Were you in there man? How's it going at Charleston? I'm heading back to the Died in 30 days so look me up if you roll through.

Cooter

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Originally posted by HeloDude:

And sometimes Helo dudes forget that that their helo's are so ugly, that the air simply repels them.

Hoser