Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[filthy_liar]

While all of the talk about bleeding our enemy without us spending any blood is going on...is Russia a threat to us?  If we didn't send a nickel to Ukraine - would our lives be any different here at home?  I'm not convinced.  What I am convinced of is that a lot of Americans have yet again been duped - there is a boogeyman (he doesn't affect your day to day in the slightest), but we need to send a shitload of $$$ to customer ### to defend against the boogeyman.

Its kinda like cyber.  "Dude, if you don't know that the cyber threat can shut down the ATMs at any moment, then I don't know what to tell you."  Well, every ATM I go to works just fine.  You can only use the "it's all on JWICS" argument on me so much before I start to have doubts.  And yes, I'm on JWICS every day.

I think people just get so caught up in the hype, just like the covid threat, that they forget to think.  The narrative starts and then it starts spiraling into a frenzy because people want to believe that their leaders aren't selfish pricks who will do anything to obtain and keep power and wealth.

If Europe doesn't care enough to take care of Ukraine, then I guess I'll still go ahead and keep living exactly how I was before Russia invaded. And Ukraine's shitty extremely corrupt construct of a government.

I think people need to pay attention to what is actually happening around them.  Put on earphones, turn off the tv and radio, and observe what is actually happening.  

[DSG]

30 minutes ago, filthy_liar said:

While all of the talk about bleeding our enemy without us spending any blood is going on...is Russia a threat to us?  If we didn't send a nickel to Ukraine - would our lives be any different here at home?  I'm not convinced.  What I am convinced of is that a lot of Americans have yet again been duped - there is a boogeyman (he doesn't affect your day to day in the slightest), but we need to send a shitload of $$$ to customer ### to defend against the boogeyman.

Its kinda like cyber.  "Dude, if you don't know that the cyber threat can shut down the ATMs at any moment, then I don't know what to tell you."  Well, every ATM I go to works just fine.  You can only use the "it's all on JWICS" argument on me so much before I start to have doubts.  And yes, I'm on JWICS every day.

I think people just get so caught up in the hype, just like the covid threat, that they forget to think.  The narrative starts and then it starts spiraling into a frenzy because people want to believe that their leaders aren't selfish pricks who will do anything to obtain and keep power and wealth.

If Europe doesn't care enough to take care of Ukraine, then I guess I'll still go ahead and keep living exactly how I was before Russia invaded. And Ukraine's shitty extremely corrupt construct of a government.

I think people need to pay attention to what is actually happening around them.  Put on earphones, turn off the tv and radio, and observe what is actually happening.  

The war's good for business.  No more, no less.

[filthy_liar]

DSG gets it.  Hopefully you are investing in the myriad of defense contractor options.  Wouldn't want the contractor companies to get all of the pie.

[Guest nsplayr]

3 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

...is Russia a threat to us?

Well they were much more so before they voluntarily destroyed a large chunk of their armed forces and young male population attempting in vain to annex a neighboring country that decided instead, “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.” 🇺🇦

But if you don't actually think a leader like Putin with the energy and military power of a country like Russia was a threat to the U.S. in any way and that we shouldn't happily assist them with stepping on every rake and landmine in Ukraine for pennies on the dollar...I don't know what to tell ya.

$48B to Ukraine out of $6.3T in federal expenditures in 2022 is 0.7%. To help significantly kneecap one of our biggest geopolitical opponents. It would be a bargain at 10x the cost!

Literally, if we could kneecap the Chinese military and oppressive CCP leadership in the same way and essentially guaranteed unfettered US & allied global dominance for a generation + for $1T and zero American lives lost, I would sign the check myself.

Edited January 12, 2023 by nsplayr

[pawnman]

5 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

While all of the talk about bleeding our enemy without us spending any blood is going on...is Russia a threat to us?  If we didn't send a nickel to Ukraine - would our lives be any different here at home?  I'm not convinced.  What I am convinced of is that a lot of Americans have yet again been duped - there is a boogeyman (he doesn't affect your day to day in the slightest), but we need to send a shitload of $$$ to customer ### to defend against the boogeyman.

Its kinda like cyber.  "Dude, if you don't know that the cyber threat can shut down the ATMs at any moment, then I don't know what to tell you."  Well, every ATM I go to works just fine.  You can only use the "it's all on JWICS" argument on me so much before I start to have doubts.  And yes, I'm on JWICS every day.

I think people just get so caught up in the hype, just like the covid threat, that they forget to think.  The narrative starts and then it starts spiraling into a frenzy because people want to believe that their leaders aren't selfish pricks who will do anything to obtain and keep power and wealth.

If Europe doesn't care enough to take care of Ukraine, then I guess I'll still go ahead and keep living exactly how I was before Russia invaded. And Ukraine's shitty extremely corrupt construct of a government.

I think people need to pay attention to what is actually happening around them.  Put on earphones, turn off the tv and radio, and observe what is actually happening.  

If you're really on JWICS everyday, then you must know that Russia is a major global competitor that attempted to influence both the 2016 and 2020 elections. You can't possibly believe that the US isn't better off with a weakened Russian military, especially if you're on JWICS every day. 

[Lord Ratner]

If Russia isn't a threat, why do we have a military? Just China? Or are we worried about South Africa? Brazil? World's most expensive military just to counter Al Queda? Russia must be considered a threat if you accept at face value that we have a military due to foreign threats and not just for defense contractors.

 

And if the size of our military (and thus the cost) is determined by the scale of our adversaries, wouldn't we be better if with weaker enemies, allowing for a smaller military?

[Sua Sponte]

15 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

While all of the talk about bleeding our enemy without us spending any blood is going on...is Russia a threat to us?  If we didn't send a nickel to Ukraine - would our lives be any different here at home?  I'm not convinced.  What I am convinced of is that a lot of Americans have yet again been duped - there is a boogeyman (he doesn't affect your day to day in the slightest), but we need to send a shitload of $$$ to customer ### to defend against the boogeyman.

Its kinda like cyber.  "Dude, if you don't know that the cyber threat can shut down the ATMs at any moment, then I don't know what to tell you."  Well, every ATM I go to works just fine.  You can only use the "it's all on JWICS" argument on me so much before I start to have doubts.  And yes, I'm on JWICS every day.

I think people just get so caught up in the hype, just like the covid threat, that they forget to think.  The narrative starts and then it starts spiraling into a frenzy because people want to believe that their leaders aren't selfish pricks who will do anything to obtain and keep power and wealth.

If Europe doesn't care enough to take care of Ukraine, then I guess I'll still go ahead and keep living exactly how I was before Russia invaded. And Ukraine's shitty extremely corrupt construct of a government.

I think people need to pay attention to what is actually happening around them.  Put on earphones, turn off the tv and radio, and observe what is actually happening.  

Any nuclear optioned state that has a tyrant in charge is a threat to the U.S.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Sua Sponte

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

Any nuclear optioned state that has a tyrant in charge is a threat to the U.S.

Why?

[FourFans]

28 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Why?

Is this an honest question, or sarcasm?

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

Why?

Just…wow. People are afraid of a lot of shit these days. Global pandemics, rogue asteroids, murderous immigrants, cancer, turbulence, lightning strikes, financial collapse, zombies. Some of those threats are more real than others. You know what everybody really should be absolutely terrified of: nuclear annihilation, ‘cause that’s still far and above the most likely way the human race ends. So yeah, an unstable dictator who offs anyone who produces information that displeases him and has the stated intent of reconstituting one of the most oppressive empires the planet has ever seen is, most assuredly, a threat. 

[FLEA]

3 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Is this an honest question, or sarcasm?

It's an honest and sincere question. I would like to see where people build the structures that upheld that belief. My reason is because the I-NPT is getting weaker every year and will likely collapse in a matter of time. And I largely believe the US is making a mistake is not accepting that we are probably going to have to accept living in a nuclear armed world with little regulation to control. For example, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea now or have previously operated outside the I-NPT. Another 5-7 countries and I think it would be fair to say the treaty is 100% unenforceable. 

 

There is also the perspective that if it wasn't for Russia we'd live in a more dangerous world. (In the sense that those 5K weapons exist whether we like it or not. Russia at least has the authority and control to safeguard then where as a Russian collapse would most certainly assure they find their way in the hands of irresponsible actors.) 

Edited January 12, 2023 by FLEA

[Guest nsplayr]

^^ so what you’re saying is that nuclear weapons are very dangerous and we should be worried when a larger number of belligerent tyrants and/or unstable shitholes control them…and also you’re questioning if Russia is a threat??

🤷‍♂️

[FLEA]

5 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

^^ so what you’re saying is that nuclear weapons are very dangerous and we should be worried when a larger number of belligerent tyrants and/or unstable shitholes control them…and also you’re questioning if Russia is a threat??

🤷‍♂️

No, what I'm saying is the likely inevitability is that Russia is going to go down in history as one of the most benevolent actors with possession of nuclear weapons. And that's a sad but truthful statement. 

[Sua Sponte]

21 minutes ago, FLEA said:

It's an honest and sincere question. I would like to see where people build the structures that upheld that belief. My reason is because the I-NPT is getting weaker every year and will likely collapse in a matter of time. And I largely believe the US is making a mistake is not accepting that we are probably going to have to accept living in a nuclear armed world with little regulation to control. For example, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea now or have previously operated outside the I-NPT. Another 5-7 countries and I think it would be fair to say the treaty is 100% unenforceable. 

 

There is also the perspective that if it wasn't for Russia we'd live in a more dangerous world. (In the sense that those 5K weapons exist whether we like it or not. Russia at least has the authority and control to safeguard then where as a Russian collapse would most certainly assure they find their way in the hands of irresponsible actors.) 

That’s solely conjecture assuming that perspective knows about the check-and-balance, if any, system Russia has over their nuclear weapons. Who’s the say that Putin doesn’t have direct control over all of Russia’s nuclear weapons and could use them at his whim?

[Guest nsplayr]

18 minutes ago, FLEA said:

No, what I'm saying is the likely inevitability is that Russia is going to go down in history as one of the most benevolent actors with possession of nuclear weapons. And that's a sad but truthful statement. 

😅😂🤣 Lolol ok I give up

[FLEA]

29 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

That’s solely conjecture assuming that perspective knows about the check-and-balance, if any, system Russia has over their nuclear weapons. Who’s the say that Putin doesn’t have direct control over all of Russia’s nuclear weapons and could use them at his whim?

What exactly do you guys think is going to happen to those weapons if Russia experiences internal collapse? 

Edited January 12, 2023 by FLEA

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

What exactly do you guys think is going to happen to those weapons if Russia experiences internal collapse? 

Assuming they aren’t used?

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

What exactly do you guys think is going to happen to those weapons if Russia experiences internal collapse? 

That depends ENTIRELY on the state of that internal collapse.  If it's replaced by a real parliamentary government (I have to laugh at that idea...but I've also heard complex and plausible options for that...), it is POSSIBLE that the US and that government could work together to contain and control the spread of nuclear arms.  In any case, the Russian nuclear forces are populated by individuals who also don't want nukes randomly distributed and controlled.  I have a LITTLE faith in them to try and limit distribution.

One factoid should stand out to everyone in this situation though: Russia was expecting to roll over Ukraine, as was the rest of the world.  They aren't, and they're having a very tough time...with UKRAINE.  Not USA, not UK, the Ukraine.  With the current state of Russian forces now known, it is clear that if Russian forces directly engage NATO forces for any reason, Russian military and political leadership KNOWS their only option for military victory is nuclear.  That's scary.

Edited January 13, 2023 by FourFans130

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

What exactly do you guys think is going to happen to those weapons if Russia experiences internal collapse? 

Russian internal collapse happened in 1989-1991. We’re still trying to influence the fallout. 

[filthy_liar]

20 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Literally, if we could kneecap the Chinese military and oppressive CCP leadership in the same way and essentially guaranteed unfettered US & allied global dominance for a generation + for $1T and zero American lives lost, I would sign the check myself.

You sure are being optimistic about us kneecapping Russia.

[filthy_liar]

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

You know what everybody really should be absolutely terrified of: nuclear annihilation, ‘cause that’s still far and above the most likely way the human race ends. So yeah, an unstable dictator who offs anyone who produces information that displeases him and has the stated intent of reconstituting one of the most oppressive empires the planet has ever seen is, most assuredly, a threat. 

I understand your point.  But that has been a fact of life for my entire lifetime.  I remember being in class in gradeschool where they marched us into the auditorium and we watched the wall come down in 89.  After all of the duck and cover drills.  Its like a lot of other things, eventually I started scratching my head and asking why were we doing this?  So again, are you living in mortal fear day in and day out of Russia?  No.  No you are not.  This flare up is not going to result in nuclear annihilation.  So back to my point...is your life going to change if we don't give a nickel to the corrupt s in Ukraine?  No.  No it isn't.  And I'm not picking on Ukraine.  Is your life going to change if you don't give a nickel to the corrupt s in Washington?  No.

[filthy_liar]

18 hours ago, pawnman said:

If you're really on JWICS everyday, then you must know that Russia is a major global competitor that attempted to influence both the 2016 and 2020 elections. You can't possibly believe that the US isn't better off with a weakened Russian military, especially if you're on JWICS every day. 

I didn't know any of that, thank you for the update.

[Guest nsplayr]

15 minutes ago, filthy_liar said:

You sure are being optimistic about us kneecapping Russia.

I am! ABO: always be optimistic.

Seriously, I truly believe based on everything I’ve read that the Russian military will be utterly spent and a large and unrecoverable % of their young male population will be dead to the point where it will take them a more than a generation to recover.

Their losses in Ukraine are unfathomable by modern US standards, and our population is 2.3x bigger. Potentially up to 100K men killed already, Jesus H. Christ. They’ve managed to double our entire Vietnam War casualties in less than a year, again, with a much smaller total population.

Let alone the amount military equipment that has been destroyed there, which is tremendous. The US has had approximately 0% of our military equipment destroyed in Ukraine, and we have a much larger defense industrial base able to resupply the expendable that are being used by the Ukrainians with our assistance.

Good luck Russia, hopefully Putin falls out a window, they retreat from this ill fated expedition, and real reform & economic modernization happens.

Edited January 13, 2023 by nsplayr

[filthy_liar]

6 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Their losses in Ukraine are unfathomable by modern US standards, and our population is 2.3x bigger. Potentially up to 100K men killed already, Jesus H. Christ. They’ve managed to double our entire Vietnam War casualties in less than a year, again, with a much smaller total population.

 

Well, maybe.  I dunno.  Neither do you.  Or maybe you have a lot more faith in reported numbers/statistics than I do. Back to my original statement.  Has your life changed one ounce based on your statement above?  No.  It hasn't.  Before Russia invaded Ukraine, did you feel that your daily life was in any kind of grave danger from Russia?  No, you didn't.  

Raytheon, NG, LM, and a shitload of other defense contractors that have huge lobbyist influence in DC have a vested interest in making sure that no matter which way the political winds blow in the US, we always must have a boogeyman.

[FourFans]

19 minutes ago, filthy_liar said:

Before Russia invaded Ukraine, did you feel that your daily life was in any kind of grave danger from Russia?  No, you didn't.

Facts don't care about your feelings.  Russia, China and North Korea are all run by cults of personality.  If history tells us one thing about that kind of governing system, it's that the only predictable long term outcome is chaos and sadness.  No ground truth is making it out of those countries concerning just how close-hold, or hair trigger the nuclear forces really are.  Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean the threat isn't there.  Three highly narcissistic and insolated-from-truth men hold the keys to some seriously powerful weapons.  Are you happy to simply ignore that?  You're ok saying "I can't see the threat so it doesn't exist"?