F-16 Students skip Phase III

[YoungnDumb]

2 hours ago, sputnik said:

I spent 8 years of my life there and that's the first I've heard of rated Navs.  I have no idea how you'd do it, not like there's much free time avail.  They couldn't even make IFS work there in the early 00s.  No one had time to complete it.

8 years?  Umm...it's a 4 year school...(joking).  Look up photos of the early classes and you;ll seem them sporting nav wings.  Also, if you talk to them tey;ll talk about flight training as cadets.

RTB nailed it, if flying was important they would make time for it.  I'm assuming nothing has changed since I left, there are several ways the Academy could get free up time for cadets to go fly, they just won't because all hail Green Dot.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, YoungnDumb said:

all hail Green Dot.

DILLY DILLY!

[sputnik]

15 hours ago, YoungnDumb said:

8 years?  Umm...it's a 4 year school...(joking).  Look up photos of the early classes and you;ll seem them sporting nav wings.  Also, if you talk to them tey;ll talk about flight training as cadets.

RTB nailed it, if flying was important they would make time for it.  I'm assuming nothing has changed since I left, there are several ways the Academy could get free up time for cadets to go fly, they just won't because all hail Green Dot.

Never said I was smart.  Cadets have their own uniform regs authorizing shit different than regular Air Force.   Or sometimes its the same stuff but for different reasons.  Like spings for their 10 days space course.  I can't prove it, but I highly doubt they ever graduated rated navigators.

RTB is correct that if they wanted IFS there they could do it.  After the T3 fiasco there was zero probability of a purpose built/modified aircraft ever occurring.  The new syllabus from recreated IFS was longer than the old one and the DA-20 couldn't  operate at the AFA airfield much of the year.   Between aircraft performance and slightly longer syllabus, couldn't get enough people complete.  So they moved it.

Additionally if you were to scour the planet for the worst place to put an airport, 6400 feet next to a mountain range might make your list.  

 

Apologies for the thread drift.

Sending folks to the Viper VFR direct after T6s seems a jaw droppingly dumb fucking idea.

[ThreeHoler]

Never said I was smart.  Cadets have their own uniform regs authorizing shit different than regular Air Force.   Or sometimes its the same stuff but for different reasons.  Like spings for their 10 days space course.  I can't prove it, but I highly doubt they ever graduated rated navigators.
RTB is correct that if they wanted IFS there they could do it.  After the T3 fiasco there was zero probability of a purpose built/modified aircraft ever occurring.  The new syllabus from recreated IFS was longer than the old one and the DA-20 couldn't  operate at the AFA airfield much of the year.   Between aircraft performance and slightly longer syllabus, couldn't get enough people complete.  So they moved it.
Additionally if you were to scour the planet for the worst place to put an airport, 6400 feet next to a mountain range might make your list.  
 
Apologies for the thread drift.
Sending folks to the Viper VFR direct after T6s seems a jaw droppingly dumb ing idea.

https://www.aetc.af.mil/Portals/88/Documents/history/AFD-061109-023.pdf?ver=2016-01-12-160010-360

And I quote:

The Navigation Indoctrination Program (NIP) was an integral and important component of the cadet training system. During the planning stages to establish the Academy, the primary decision was whether to give cadets pilot training or navigation training. At the time, the NIP was picked because it was easier to integrate the program into the academic curriculum and also because the Air Force thought such a program would provide necessary knowledge to both the aircraft operations and missile fields.31 Furthermore, the training facilities at Lowry prohibited the development of a full-fledged pilot training program. The Navigation Indoctrination Program during the 1950s, in which cadets received 171 hours in the air, allowed cadets to graduate with navigator wings. Each fourth classman flew in the T-33 jet trainer, followed by time in the T-29 “flying classroom.”32

While the Academy was located at Lowry AFB, the navigation program ran smoothly because the cadets could use the existing facilities to fulfill the navigation curriculum. When the Academy moved to its permanent location in Colorado Springs, the 65-mile distance between the two bases put a strain on the program because cadets had to travel to Lowry AFB to complete their training. Due to financial constraints on NIP, the Academy Board met on 27 May 1959 to discuss how to phase out the navigation program. Over the next two years, the program was slowly phased out. The Class of 1961 was the last to graduate with navigator wings.33

Go yourself.

[matmacwc]

I’ve heard, but not seen, that things got interesting on the CAF FBook page today about this subject.

[sputnik]

Wow, never heard that.  I stand corrected

[LookieRookie]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/12/06/enlisted-combat-pilots-the-air-force-is-launching-a-test-that-could-lead-to-that/

 

Enlisted 11Xs or 1Zwhatever even made the AF Crimes now.

[BashiChuni]

Do not like. 

[LiquidSky]

Of course they get the cush deal being out of Austin. 

 

On a serious note  if retention is an issue for officers, why would an enlisted getting paid pittance in comparison with a shorter commitment not jump ship to the airlines immediately?

If the idea is to show non college grads are capable of flying the answer is, yes of course they are. Flying isn't something black magic skill that you learn by going to a college or through rotc/ots/academy. The odds of success in a tough pipeline, however, are increased by a degree in my opinion because you're more likely to have the study skills, work ethic, etc. you develop through those processes. More importantly, when you're the aircraft commander you better be an officer (or warrant). Can you imagine how much flak we would take if 20 yearold airman snuffy crashed and killed a civilian in the process? 

If you send them to ots before/after, make them a warrant officer, etc. I think it could work. But even then why take the risk and not do it how it is now? Ots first then upt.

This is another shitty bandaid to the problem. They have their fingers in their ears shouting "lala lala I can't hear you lalalalala" while the entire community is saying here is how you can make me stay. They're not willing to make any changes to those areas such as salaries, job locations, time home with family, etc. you, the mission comes first not the people. I know we'll make the enlisted do it for less pay! Solved the budget and manning issue at once! Because a ssgt pilot is basically the same as the majors we're desperately hurting for. 

[Laxer69]

According to the BBP and info we received today when they were soliciting volunteers for IPs, the 15 officers would be treated as regular upt studs except for their going to B course following graduation. If they fail out then they go into regular UPT at a point comensurate with their phase of training.

 

For the enlisted guys it specifically said something along the lines of 'to measure the liklihood of success and provide a professional experience' or something of that sorts. I interpreted it to mean they wouldnt actually get wings at the end, or wouldnt necessarily go direct to a follow on RPA and still have to go through 18x training- just guessing on this part.

[LookieRookie]

12 minutes ago, BasicAggie said:

According to the BBP and info we received today when they were soliciting volunteers for IPs, the 15 officers would be treated as regular upt studs except for their going to B course following graduation. If they fail out then they go into regular UPT at a point comensurate with their phase of training.

 

For the enlisted guys it specifically said something along the lines of 'to measure the liklihood of success and provide a professional experience' or something of that sorts. I interpreted it to mean they wouldnt actually get wings at the end, or wouldnt necessarily go direct to a follow on RPA and still have to go through 18x training- just guessing on this part.

Are they PCSing qualified Texan drivers from PIT/ UPT?

[LiquidSky]

There is no way a current upt stud out of phase 2 could go directly to the B course. Unless they're a prior atp or what have you. They can barely read an approach plate much less fly a multi leg mission. They're used to a very responsive and forgiving plane that it's easy to get back from mistakes in. And if it's into Fighters they've got less than 20 hours of formation flying under their belt before being shipped to iff.

There is something to be said for time in the seat and I don't think there is anyway that you can effectively shorten it to 6 months in the Texan without severely handicapping the end product.

[BashiChuni]

<air force> "oh yeah...hold my beer"

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, LiquidSky said:

Of course they get the cush deal being out of Austin. 

On a serious note  if retention is an issue for officers, why would an enlisted getting paid pittance in comparison with a shorter commitment not jump ship to the airlines immediately?

If the idea is to show non college grads are capable of flying the answer is, yes of course they are. Flying isn't something black magic skill that you learn by going to a college or through rotc/ots/academy. The odds of success in a tough pipeline, however, are increased by a degree in my opinion because you're more likely to have the study skills, work ethic, etc. you develop through those processes. More importantly, when you're the aircraft commander you better be an officer (or warrant). Can you imagine how much flak we would take if 20 yearold airman snuffy crashed and killed a civilian in the process? 

If you send them to ots before/after, make them a warrant officer, etc. I think it could work. But even then why take the risk and not do it how it is now? Ots first then upt.

This is another shitty bandaid to the problem. They have their fingers in their ears shouting "lala lala I can't hear you lalalalala" while the entire community is saying here is how you can make me stay. They're not willing to make any changes to those areas such as salaries, job locations, time home with family, etc. you, the mission comes first not the people. I know we'll make the enlisted do it for less pay! Solved the budget and manning issue at once! Because a ssgt pilot is basically the same as the majors we're desperately hurting for. 

Sarcastic post aside, I'll answer the questions literally (for sarcastic fun):

They won't. Enlisted pilot retention will likely be lower than officer pilot retention.

Nail on Cranium, though I will say that it's not so much the 'process' that the academy/rotc/ots puts "you" through (capable people are capable people); rather, the pool of candidates that make it through the other end of those said training pipelines have shown they have the metal to handle the USAF UPT pipeline. This 'cheaper' process enables the USAF to select (from an already select group) individuals who are likely to succeed in a challenging program (which is extraordinarily expensive), which is, arguably, the point of those accession processes. My point is, the whole purpose of accession programs is to save tax payer money by sending the people most likely to graduate through the most expensive training known to man...having a "college degree" and 90 days of marching is not too high a bar to granting that privilege, IMHO.

Interesting point, made me think. What does OTS cost relative to the Academy? A penny on the dollar? It costs next to effing nothing to send a bro through OTS, commission a bitch after 90-days, staple a gold bar on his shoulder and proudly salute. What I (cynically) think is that now the leadership is looking for more control. Can't control Capts/Majs/Lt Cols who don't give a F$#% what a two-star says because they realize that that guy is effectively their peer with a few years more experience. Better to have a SSgt F-35 pilot or C-17 pilot who just CAN"T say no, and who can't (legitimately) scoff your ideas.

Control. Read Catch-22.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by ViperMan

[LiquidSky]

26 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Sarcastic post aside, I'll answer the questions literally (for sarcastic fun):

They won't. Enlisted pilot retention will likely be lower than officer pilot retention.

Nail on Cranium, though I will say that it's not so much the 'process' that the academy/rotc/ots puts "you" through (capable people are capable people); rather, the pool of candidates that make it through the other end of those said training pipelines have shown they have the metal to handle the USAF UPT pipeline. This 'cheaper' process enables the USAF to select (from an already select group) individuals who are likely to succeed in a challenging program (which is extraordinarily expensive), which is, arguably, the point of those accession processes. My point is, the whole purpose of accession programs is to save tax payer money by sending the people most likely to graduate through the most expensive training known to man...having a "college degree" and 90 days of marching is not too high a bar to granting that privilege, IMHO.

To make sure I'm tracking, are you're saying that the bar to starting upt needs to be set higher than a college degree and 90 days at ots? Or that it's right where it belongs and in testing out the E program we're lowering the current bar too far? 

Control is an interesting thought, but I would be shocked if they're thinking that many moves ahead. My money is on this being yet another poorly attempted cost saving bandaid that is ignoring the root cause of both pilot production and retention rates. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by LiquidSky

[ViperMan]

22 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

To make sure I'm tracking, you're saying that the bar to starting upt needs to be set higher than a college degree and 90 days at ots? Or that it's right where it belongs and in testing out the E program we're lowering the current bar too far? 

Control is an interesting thought, but I would be shocked if they're thinking that many moves ahead. My money is on this being yet another poorly attempted cost saving bandaid that is ignoring the root cause of both pilot production and retention rates. 

Sortofish. What I am saying (which deserves its own post), is that the Air Force (as is true with  any very large enterprise) needs a bureaucratic means (which it currently has) of selecting from a group of highly qualified and highly motivated individuals to select for their most difficult training pipeline. This ensures a higher probability of success which is vital with extraordinarily expensive training. Requiring someone to have a college degree (any college degree) is in NO WAY too high a bar to preclude someone from competing for pilot training - READ: those people who can't (or don't) make it through 'X' State University, very likely, have ZERO business flying a fighter aircraft, let alone any aircraft in the USAF. This, by definition, precludes much of the enlisted force.

The above is in no way saying their are enlisted individuals who "couldn't" 'fly' a fighter or heavy aircraft - lord knows. I know there are many individuals around the world flying fighters who are less than capable. I feel ardently about this because I feel that our national advantage isn't grounded in our Army. It's grounded in our Air Force. And when we give up that advantage, we're asking for F$@%ing trouble.

What I see this as is grasping at straws and a mediocre "attempt" to solve a problem. Ultimately the AF needs to stand up and tell the Army to do it's job (another post). This, of course, requires national-level leadership buy-in to a strategy (hasn't seemed like we've had one of those for a while), but why else are these people wearing stars?

Edited December 7, 2017 by ViperMan

[matmacwc]

This thread has derailed and I’m on the road and cannot fix it, sounds like they may rip some current T-6 students out of the pipeline and give it a whirl.  Good luck, don’t suck and fail a formal course.

[BFM this]

5 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Sortofish. What I am saying (which deserves its own post), is that the Air Force (as is true with  any very large enterprise) needs a bureaucratic means (which it currently has) of selecting from a group of highly qualified and highly motivated individuals to select for their most difficult training pipeline. This ensures a higher probability of success which is vital with extraordinarily expensive training. 

Training attrition is nowhere near the top of our current list of woes or even a remotely causal factor.

...but given the current ideas being floated it may become just that.

[Laxer69]

12 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Are they PCSing qualified Texan drivers from PIT/ UPT?

There are 5 "permanent" staff and 15 ips selected from the UPT bases+PIT. IPs are desired to be 11f, 38-trained faips, or anyone 4ship qual. The ips will be there tdy for 6 months. 

 

It was unclear how the studs would be selected, but there was special emphasis that if the program failed or they washed out of any phase of training they would have the opportunity to start over in classic UPT.

[YoungnDumb]

12 hours ago, BasicAggie said:

It was unclear how the studs would be selected, but there was special emphasis that if the program failed or they washed out of any phase of training they would have the opportunity to start over in classic UPT.

They won't let anyone wash out, too high vis, and god knows we wouldn't anyone to admit the AF made a mistake or hurt someones OPR.

[ARAMP1]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:41 PM, hindsight2020 said:

I'll give ya a hint....Navy Reserves.

I’ll need a better hint than that.  

[Seriously]

On 12/7/2017 at 11:48 AM, LiquidSky said:

There is no way a current upt stud out of phase 2 could go directly to the B course. Unless they're a prior atp or what have you. They can barely read an approach plate much less fly a multi leg mission. They're used to a very responsive and forgiving plane that it's easy to get back from mistakes in. And if it's into Fighters they've got less than 20 hours of formation flying under their belt before being shipped to iff.

There is something to be said for time in the seat and I don't think there is anyway that you can effectively shorten it to 6 months in the Texan without severely handicapping the end product.

Yep. These students might not fail out of the new style of UPT, but they will most certainly fail out of the B-course and go to an FEB.

[YoungnDumb]

As I stated before, they won't be allowed to fail.  If any of them get close I can see some O-6+ stepping in and intervening so they can say their program didn't fail.

[RTB]

7 hours ago, YoungnDumb said:

As I stated before, they won't be allowed to fail.  If any of them get close I can see some O-6+ stepping in and intervening so they can say their program didn't fail.

If that happens, failures will be counted in terms of Class A's.

[Sprkt69]

5 hours ago, RTB said:

If that happens, failures will be counted in terms of Class A's.

They will just throw the IP and Sq under the bus. Management will continue, with maybe the worst thing happening being that their slide gets yellowed up