USAF C-130J Harvest Hawk

[alwyn2d]

Are you retarded or just trolling?

Do you have a sense of humor? If not, get some. Life is alot more enjoyable that way.

[HerkDerka]

Do you have a sense of humor? If not, get some. Life is alot more enjoyable that way.

If that was a joke then it's one of the worst jokes I've seen. I'm trying to figure out where you're getting your info from since you seem to think that the usefulness of tac airlift depends on the enemy's equipment.

[nsplayr]

Sure, everyone should always be prepared to put as much into the fight as possible. That is the point of the thread-- should aircraft not packing heat start doing so? I don't know what is best, I just think we're at a point where in the mind of the AF adding one capability takes away from another. Add CAS to -52's take away nuke readiness (big blue's opinion, not mine), add CAS to the W (DS) take away LL AD, etc. So I'm curious with your experience, do you think more assets that could be CAS players (not dedicated experts like you guys, just able to employ iron) would help or get in the way? I'm sure there would be examples of both, but on the whole, do you think we need more guys able to orbit and drop?

IMHO, you should not weaponize platforms that don't have the experienced personel and established, well practiced TTPs to use them with near 100% effectiveness. Obviously the buff has plenty of weapons it uses for it's primary missions so is it a good idea for them to practice CAS just in case, I don't know. My instinct is no because there are lots of other carnivores out there and you don't need crews wasting time practicing a mission they may execute once in a very blue moon at the expense of keeping the expertise in their primary mission sets.

I think a lot of this will be moot once we have the envisioned 6-9 thousand UAVs orbiting with ordnance strapped to their wings. Back in 2001 we needed buffs to orbit because there wasn't the type of unmanned strike capability we have today.

Anyways, feel free to critique b/c I haven't BTDT enough to provide a more well thought out answer.

[BigE]

If your jet drops iron - then you should be ready AND trained to execute CAS. May not be in your DOC - you certainly may not be tasked as such on the ATO - but if/when the time comes that someone needs your iron NOW and you're not able to do so efficiently, effectively, and professionally - then you have failed.

Different jets have different limitations - a B-52, B-1, or B-2 is never going to be the preferred platform for most scenarios requiring a CAS asset - but if its what you have now - then the bros in the jet need to be ready to execute - with what they can do.

And for you BONE dudes out there - I know, CAS has become a primary mission for you as of late - and you spend a lot of time training to same - but Bomber CAS is called that for a reason - its just well - executed differently.

I would be surprised to learn there is a bomb dropping platform out there that doesn't at least have a Chapter in their TTPs talking about CAS - which means you should read it, understand it, and train to it. Obviously may not be something you spend the majority of your time on - but never-the-less visited as part of your training plan.

If your leadership is not ensuring the above is happening - they are sadly failing you.

And if the AF decides they want more shit on different platforms - then I'm sure the bros are going to be just that - professionals that get the J.O.B done, despite whatever stupid handcuffs are given them. Great thing about not being an ass and someone that can learn - other bros with experience will help you to figure it out - and in this case it sounds like Cleared Hot and his guys have long ago been doing such.

Now if we could just get a FAC(A) like HiFlyer buzzing around - who is inherently close to the fight, with SA, the brainpower to FAC in the strikers, ability to pull CAT 1 coords for the JDAMs, we might have something... but alas I have rambled too long - and its St-Patis Day - and my not so Irish Scotch is empty...

e

[BQZip01]

Those are the exact words that rang through the hallways at Nellis when they started giving CAS tasking to bomber guys during the ME phase. The response was always the same "Yabbut, the B-52s saved the day at Khe Sanh!" (not sure why the BUFFs always want to claim all the credit for that, as if there were no other CAS sorties flown during that siege).

History repeats, assets are in short supply, CAS is sexy, adding missions makes you "more viable" in the budgeting process...all factors in the recipe to make this happen.

B-52s were also used in Tora Bora and were some of the best assets available in that target-rich environment (many other jets ran out of munitions or hit bingo fuel). They also were used at Khe Sahn. This is not to say that other aircraft were not available or didn't do the jobs they were assigned. It is a niche role (heavy CAS?) that doesn't rear its ugly head too often, but when it does, the BUFFs are there.

By skill set I mean being tasked to do the same mission now. My understanding is that -52's are no longer qualified to drop ordnance via the 9-line for CAS due to a renewed focus on the nuclear mission. Consequently, if 9-11 were to happen again tomorrow and the nation needed to support ground teams to a geographically isolated location with assets that can hold for long durations... could we do it? I know there are assets I haven't worked with but I also know the -52's DID do this mission when called upon, did it well enough to earn kudos from the teams, but are currently not doing it with no plans to practice in the future. If I'm wrong and CAS support is a skill that -52 crews maintain, then this discussion is moot and I'll stand corrected.

You stand corrected. We still practice 9-lines and CAS (did some of that in a mass exercise not too long ago). The nuke focus is merely ONE of our foci. We just have better support for that mission and the AF has seen fit to <s>resurrect SAC</s> give us a new command to provide appropriate oversight of the nuclear mission (does ANYONE think that nukes/B-52s/B-2s were ACC's top priority? It was stupid to put them under ACC in the first place).

[tac airlifter]

You stand corrected. We still practice 9-lines and CAS (did some of that in a mass exercise not too long ago). The nuke focus is merely ONE of our foci. We just have better support for that mission and the AF has seen fit to <s>resurrect SAC</s> give us a new command to provide appropriate oversight of the nuclear mission (does ANYONE think that nukes/B-52s/B-2s were ACC's top priority? It was stupid to put them under ACC in the first place).

What you practice in exercises and what you actually deploy to do are not necessarily the same. Do you know anyone in your community currently doing CAS operationally? Anyone that's done it in the last 5 years? I'm not being a smart ass, but none of the IP's flying -52's that I know are doing any of this anymore much to their disappointment; they just do show of force stuff. Glad you are at least practicing taking 9-lines, you guys did great work in early OEF.

Edited March 20, 2010 by tac airlifter

[LJ Driver]

Gunship guys don't do night low level terrain following threat penetration airdrop for a reason. The same logic works the other way around as well.

Agreed, but the MC-130W doesn't do "night low level terrain following threat penetration airdrop" either.

[Murph]

Can't find anything online but rumor mill has it that the harvest hawk may be canx'ed.

[Murph]

B-52s were also used in Tora Bora and were some of the best assets available in that target-rich environment (many other jets ran out of munitions or hit bingo fuel). They also were used at Khe Sahn. This is not to say that other aircraft were not available or didn't do the jobs they were assigned. It is a niche role (heavy CAS?) that doesn't rear its ugly head too often, but when it does, the BUFFs are there.

I think this "niche role" that Buff's have coined for themselves, "heavy CAS", is cute.

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

Can't find anything online but rumor mill has it that the harvest hawk may be canx'ed.

which rumor mill?

[Guest]

B-52s were also used in Tora Bora and were some of the best assets available in that target-rich environment (many other jets ran out of munitions or hit bingo fuel). They also were used at Khe Sahn. This is not to say that other aircraft were not available or didn't do the jobs they were assigned. It is a niche role (heavy CAS?) that doesn't rear its ugly head too often, but when it does, the BUFFs are there.

Early on in OEF the BUFFs were available, often the only ones available. I think I said that already. I will disagree that they were "the best assets in that target rich environment." They were a JDAM truck for STS troops with a GPS. If it were not for JDAM the BUFFs would have been on the bench.

(does ANYONE think that nukes/B-52s/B-2s were ACC's top priority? It was stupid to put them under ACC in the first place).

So we're going to blame "ACC" for taking their eye off the ball? YGBFSM! The guys handling nukes dropped the ball, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what MAJCOM they were under when they started to fail. Lack of focus at the tip of the spear got some good people fired and gave the USAF a black eye.

[B52gator]

I think this "niche role" that Buff's have coined for themselves, "heavy CAS", is cute.

I'm sure you do, but no one cares.

I don't know how this turned into a BUFF thread, but I feel the need to stick up for the BUFF a bit and hijack a bit more, so I'm going to jump in.

The problem with The Mighty BUFF is that it is more or less on life support. Unfortunately, I feel the BUFF is and has been for quite some time the red-headed step-child of the AF. I think the powers that be are too afraid to axe it for political reasons so they are just waiting for it to die and go away. We keep changing mission focus, we haven't been in the fight for a long time, we had 2-3 years of major screw-ups, and outside of the BUFF community, nobody really likes us (jealousy!) or wants to play with us. While a versatile platform, we (I say "we" because once a BUFF guy, always a BUFF guy) can't seem to specialize in a mission. That fault lies squarely with leadership in the community (IMHO). When I was in, nuke, CAS, stand-off, high alt bombing, and LL mining/flying/rigging (been out awhile, do we still do that?) were our "missions." I think I may have even forgot a few. As I was getting out, the EW mission was being talked about and we just started with targeting pod stuff. The problem is we became "jack of all trades masters of none." We weren't really specialists in anything. I was in during the glory days of BUFF CAS and thought we did a really nice job with it. It was new to us and there were growing pains, but I felt the community as a whole stepped up nicely. That mission and the ability to effectively drop JDAM saved the jet in the early 00s. I know high and mighty true CAS warriors get a little sensitive and scoff at the idea of a bomber infringing upon their precious mission, but the fact is the BUFF could perform quite well in a quasi-CAS role. The BUFF was an effective platform for dropping JDAMs supporting dudes on the ground, plain and simple. That is all that really needs to be said. If anybody can disagree with that, I'm more than happy to listen. I'm biased, but I feel the BUFF is one of the most versatile and one of the best combat aircraft of all time. If you take a look at its original mission compared to what is today (and everything it has done in between) in truly is a remarkable airframe. I didn't mean to get into a BUFF loving tirade, sorry about that.

Back on thread track:

Harvest Hawk is just a way for more people to get involved in the fight. I think there are more than enough platforms with their fingers in the CAS pie.

Edited March 23, 2010 by b52gator

[Guest]

I'm biased, but I feel the BUFF is one of the most versatile and one of the best combat aircraft of all time.

Agreed. In fact, it could easily be argued the BUFF is THE best combat aircraft of all time.

[BQZip01]

What you practice in exercises and what you actually deploy to do are not necessarily the same. Do you know anyone in your community currently doing CAS operationally? Anyone that's done it in the last 5 years? I'm not being a smart ass, but none of the IP's flying -52's that I know are doing any of this anymore much to their disappointment; they just do show of force stuff. Glad you are at least practicing taking 9-lines, you guys did great work in early OEF.

No offense taken, but just because we aren't being employed doesn't mean we lack the capability or that we don't practice 9-lines galore (for a BUFF with 16+ JDAMs onboard, multiple passes with multiple 9-lines are always a probability). The show-of-force stuff isn't my cup of tea and serves only to intimidate those who are able to be intimidated; if you don't care about your life, your aren't intimidated. I personally think leveling a target measured by a size in city-blocks is FAR more intimidating...

I think this "niche role" that Buff's have coined for themselves, "heavy CAS", is cute.

I just coined the phrase; I don't expect it to necessarily catch-on, but I think it is an accurate description.

Early on in OEF the BUFFs were available, often the only ones available. I think I said that already. I will disagree that they were "the best assets in that target rich environment." They were a JDAM truck for STS troops with a GPS. If it were not for JDAM the BUFFs would have been on the bench.

I said they were the best at that time (which included the use of GPS) and that is not my opinion, but that of Dalton Fury: http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Bin-Laden-Commanders-Account/dp/0312384394. I believe a full belly load (sts) of 27xM117s would also do quite well in saturating some of the more remote sections. If they'd been called upon to mine the passes out of the area, they could have stopped OBL from escaping.

So we're going to blame "ACC" for taking their eye off the ball? YGBFSM! The guys handling nukes dropped the ball, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what MAJCOM they were under when they started to fail. Lack of focus at the tip of the spear got some good people fired and gave the USAF a black eye.

I am NOT blaming ACC for the nuke accident per se. I AM blaming them for not putting enough emphasis on nukes and allowing it to be pushed to a secondary priority. Those who did not perform their actions appropriately and allowed nukes to be ferried without even knowing it were the last in a long series of failures that ACC oversight would have corrected. It was a major contributing factor (IMNSHO), not the root cause. I agree that the AF got a black eye from it and good people got fired whether it was necessary or not. Many people in leadership that deserved to be fired weren't.

Agreed. In fact, it could easily be argued the BUFF is THE best combat aircraft of all time.

One more for the quote board. Thanks, Rainman!

[stract]

Unfortunately, I feel the BUFF is and has been for quite some time the red-headed step-child of the AF. I think the powers that be are too afraid to axe it for political reasons so they are just waiting for it to die and go away. We keep changing mission focus, we haven't been in the fight for a long time, we had 2-3 years of major screw-ups, and outside of the BUFF community, nobody really likes us (jealousy!) or wants to play with us.

it's funny how multiple airframes consider themselves to be the red-headed step children of the AF...your sentiment above almost exactly describes CSAR, as well. They can't decide what MAJCOM they want us in, the MAJCOM can't decide what mission sets we can perform, Congress is having heartburn over the replacement airframe...

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

it's funny how multiple airframes consider themselves to be the red-headed step children of the AF...your sentiment above almost exactly describes CSAR, as well. They can't decide what MAJCOM they want us in, the MAJCOM can't decide what mission sets we can perform, Congress is having heartburn over the replacement airframe...

What is this thread about again?

[BQZip01]

What is this thread about again?

The C-130J Harvest Hawk program. Duh. Read the title.

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

The C-130J Harvest Hawk program. Duh. Read the title.

Its the future boys..get used to it. You can keep whining about DS and all the people that are going to die and whose reputation is going to suffer and CAS this and TIC that...not gonna change the path of future gunships that will have to learn from DS.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awst/2010/03/22/AW_03_22_2010_p30-213277.xml&headline=Socom%20Refines%20AC-130J%20Gunship%20Plans

Socom Refines AC-130J Gunship Plans

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...unship%20Plans

U.S. Special Operations Command (Socom) is planning to base its future AC-130J gunship on the modular “Precision Strike Package” that it is quietly and quickly fielding on the MC-130W.

This is a major departure from today’s AC-130H/U configuration, which wields the characteristic side-mounted 105-mm. howitzer and a 40-mm. gun. The decision also reflects a shift in the command’s approach to purchasing new weapons, indicating a bent toward a rapidly achievable, low-cost program using a joint task force for purchasing.

At one point, Air Force Special Operations Command officials were hoping for a stealthy gunship capable of deploying high-energy weapons. And last year, they were eyeing a C-27J-based gunship, which would have been a smaller cousin to the large C-130 based designs, but that effort was dashed by Congress.

The Quadrennial Defense Review released in February, however, mandates the replacement of eight legacy AC-130H Spectre gunships with eight new AC‑130Js. Another eight will be purchased to grow the fleet, bringing the total new buy to 16. The Air Force will retain the 17 AC-130Us now in operation, so the future gunship fleet will number 33.

Gunships are in very high demand to support ground troops with day/night precision fires in Iraq, Afghanistan and other operations abroad; the increased pace of operations has resulted in high wear and tear on the fleet, prompting the need for additional airframes.

Socom’s new approach to a gunship design is part of its attempt to standardize platforms in order to ease procurement, cost of maintenance and logistics, and operations. Today’s fleet consists of few numbers of varied platforms.

Officials also hope a modular design will allow for fast addition of new capabilities for precise close air support and upgrades in the future, Socom Deputy Acquisition Director James Geurts tells Aviation Week. “Instead of having a family of airplanes now, think of it as having a family of precision strike capabilities that we can port onto different [special Operations Forces] platforms,” he says. “I can just pick it up and put it on an [MC-130W], and we are going to put it on the [AC-130]J. So that is a mind-set change from a couple of years ago.”

Socom is in the midst of preparing what it calls the Precision Strike Package, a rapidly reconfigurable collection of sensors, communications and weapons, for fielding soon, Geurts says. A specific date was not provided due to mission security. The package includes electro-optical and infrared targeting systems, the 35-50-lb. Special Operations Precision Guided Munitions (Sopgms) and a side-mounted 30-mm. gun. The Sopgms—Northrop Grumman’s Viper Strike and Raytheon’s Griffin weapons—will be launched through tubes mounted on the MC-130W’s ramp. The gun will be bolted to the floor and hang through the side of the fuselage; it will be removable depending on mission requirements.

This configuration differs from the U.S. Marine Corps’ palletized, roll-on/roll-off weaponization kit for its KC‑130J refuelers. Testing of this so-called Harvest Hawk system will wrap up this month, and it will deploy to Afghanistan shortly thereafter, according to Maj. J.P. Pellegrino, KC-130 requirements officer for the Marine Corps. The second and third kits are slated for operations in the fall, and nine will be purchased by the service. This kit was developed to provide suppressive fire, while Socom’s work is aimed at precision.

Socom’s Dragon Spear, the marriage of the MC-130W and the Precision Strike Package, grew out of an urgent requirement passed down by Defense Secretary Robert Gates for the rapid deployment of more armed overwatch assets. The MC-130W Combat Spear is designed to provide covert infiltration and exfiltration of elite forces, and it was selected as the first platform to carry this new precision strike capability.

what's armed battlefield overwatch? looks like gunpigs will eventually find out.

[Guest]

Git 'er dun

[BQZip01]

Git 'er dun

of course that was in 2008...

[Texaco]

I read this article last week and noticed it doesn't look like the HC/MC-130J and future AC-130J is coming from the -30 "stretch" line, but the same as the Coast Guard's HC-130J and Marine's KC-130J.

Lockheed reveals USAF's first HC-130J tanker By Craig Hoyle

The US Air Force will take delivery of its first HC-130J combat rescue tanker later this year, with the aircraft having emerged at Lockheed Martin's Marietta production plant in Georgia on 3 April. Pictured leaving the main assembly building ahead of painting, the aircraft will soon enter production flight testing, says Lockheed. "The HC-130J will meet an initial operating capability date in mid-2012," it adds.

The USAF's Air Combat Command has ordered its first two of a planned 18 HC-130Js, and will also acquire 26 MC-130J tankers, as listed in Flightglobal's MiliCAS database. Lockheed began assembly work on the first HC-130J last October, with the aircraft intended to support future search and rescue operations by the USAF. With an increased maximum take-off weight of over 74t, the variant also features an improved wing design.

Any ideas on what there going to name it?

HC-130J - "King II"

MC-130J - "Shadow II/Talon III"

AC-130J - "Spectre II/Spooky III"

[slacker]

I read this article last week and noticed it doesn't look like the HC/MC-130J and future AC-130J is coming from the -30 "stretch" line, but the same as the Coast Guard's HC-130J and Marine's KC-130J.

Lockheed reveals USAF's first HC-130J tanker By Craig Hoyle

The US Air Force will take delivery of its first HC-130J combat rescue tanker later this year, with the aircraft having emerged at Lockheed Martin's Marietta production plant in Georgia on 3 April. Pictured leaving the main assembly building ahead of painting, the aircraft will soon enter production flight testing, says Lockheed. "The HC-130J will meet an initial operating capability date in mid-2012," it adds.

The USAF's Air Combat Command has ordered its first two of a planned 18 HC-130Js, and will also acquire 26 MC-130J tankers, as listed in Flightglobal's MiliCAS database. Lockheed began assembly work on the first HC-130J last October, with the aircraft intended to support future search and rescue operations by the USAF. With an increased maximum take-off weight of over 74t, the variant also features an improved wing design.

Any ideas on what there going to name it?

HC-130J - "King II"

MC-130J - "Shadow II/Talon III"

AC-130J - "Spectre II/Spooky III"

So is the AC-130J going to be a stretch or a stubby? 15 ft more fuselage means more guns.

[Texaco]

So is the AC-130J going to be a stretch or a stubby? 15 ft more fuselage means more guns.

The HC-130J and MC-130J are coming from the same stubby production line from the looks of it. The new gunship will convert 16 stubby MC-130J into AC-130Js. If they're using the same precision engagment package as the Wombat (one 30mm out the side and ramp mounted munitions) then they don't need the extra 15 feet, unless they want to eventually add some more toys.

Do you think the AC-130J will take on an infil/exfil role, then pop up and provide CAS for the dudes they just dropped off? Kind of like the AC-27J was planning on?

[Murph]

The HC-130J and MC-130J are coming from the same stubby production line from the looks of it. The new gunship will convert 16 stubby MC-130J into AC-130Js. If they're using the same precision engagment package as the Wombat (one 30mm out the side and ramp mounted munitions) then they don't need the extra 15 feet, unless they want to eventually add some more toys.

Do you think the AC-130J will take on an infil/exfil role, then pop up and provide CAS for the dudes they just dropped off? Kind of like the AC-27J was planning on?

I hope not, for the reasons we "discussed" in another MC-130W centric thread. I can't imagine not being able to fit a 105mm on a "stubby". Of course, that assumes that we get off this "precision engagement only" band wagon and install a large caliber weapon in concert with SOPGMs.

[FlyinGrunt]

what's the point of a GUNship if it's basically a crappy BUFF? This bomb-dropping, missile-shooting, no 105 stuff sucks. overkilling your targets with precision munitions vs a 25/40/105mm makes no sense. I don't care how you slice it, you're not going to be able to load like 100 SOPGMs on a gunship! Mayeb like 8. Or 20. But not anything comparable to the efficient killing potential we have now. We're not bunker-busting fighters, we're airborne artillery that kills a lot of lightly armored targets.