The Bronze Star

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

So a little while ago we had a WG/CC call. Part of the show for the day was the presentation of two Bronze Stars. Both to LRS types. In neither citation did I hear one mention of enemy fire. The closest thing I could discern was that one guy might have been present in a mortar attack. This is not the first time I've seen and heard of the BS being awarded to guys who were not under fire from the enemy.

Am I missing something, or is the BS becoming less of a medal for actual achievement, and more of another "thanks for playing" feel-good medal, similar to the Air Medal?

[busdriver]

Bronze Start w/ Valor is a different animal. That said, I don't like it either. If the Bronze Star has become the MSM for combat service, why not just award an MSM?

[DirkDiggler]

The whole process, as the AF runs it, is horseshit, regardless of the with valor or without. Some army/marine PFC gets a BSM for pulling his buddy out of a burning HUMVEE under fire with shrapnel lodged in his back; some shoe clerk O-5/6 f%&k puts himself in for one after 4 months of "managing and directing" assets inside the wire at Balad. Its disgusting and it cheapens the value of the people who actually earned the medals the hard way.

[BQZip01]

The whole process, as the AF runs it, is horseshit, regardless of the with valor or without. Some army/marine PFC gets a BSM for pulling his buddy out of a burning HUMVEE under fire with shrapnel lodged in his back; some shoe clerk O-5/6 f%&k puts himself in for one after 4 months of "managing and directing" assets inside the wire at Balad. Its disgusting and it cheapens the value of the people who actually earned the medals the hard way.

I would caution you to back off a little bit. The Bronze Star (without valor) is completely different from the Bronze Star WITH valor. I also know that the AF doesn't hand those out hand over fist and CENTAF doesn't even send them up if they are weak.

I was a deployed Exec and in 90 days I handled over 1300 decorations (a few for the BSM with valor and a few for the BSM). I also know that those narrations are supposed to be icing on the cake. A full 50-60% is canned and required information (location, unit, standard closing). A lot that ISN'T in the narration is included in a justification letter that's nearly a page long (and it isn't read aloud).

I've seen guys who were excellent leaders in combat zones with personnel under their command being awarded Silver Stars, BSMs with valor, Purple Hearts, and other pretty significant medals. Their leadership enabled them to do such heroic things, provided the training, and gave them the authority to do these acts. In one instance an MH-53 was shot down, the other -53 in the formation immediately turned back around, and, under fire, extracted the other crew. Not ONE person didn't give 100% or wasn't heroic. There were fists of medals handed out for that single event (14 I think).

You think a BSM would be appropriate for their commander whether or not he actually got shot at? I do. That's what it's there for.

[contraildash]

There's a book out called "the majestic twelve" about a rag-tag bunch of marines, soldiers, and airmen that start their own convoy protection. The Marine who wrote the book is rather scathing when it comes to the subject of the "fobbits" putting in dec packages for sitting around in some building all day, and while at the same time going out of their way to make sure that the convoy guys (whom they didn't like) had medals degraded or even rejected.

Interesting read.

[Radio]

I agree with BQZip. According to the regs, if someone earns an MSM under wartime conditions, they get the BSM without V. Its not a slam against those that earn the V or Air Medals/Silver Stars/DFCs. AOs still award the MSM or the DMSM (joint version), but they technically shouldn't be doing that if the person earned the MSM and was anywhere near the war. People in Al Udied or Kuwait and getting BSMs is another story, but lets not go there for now.

Back to the original poster, LRS types actually do regularly earn the BSM w/V. The ones I know did convoys all over Iraq for 6+ months and one took out a suicide bombers from close range. Because of Vehicle Ops/Convoy Ops, LRS probably has the highest chance of earning the BSM w/V of any non-rated AFSC except CE/EOD and SFS. I know several LRS guys that were awarded Purple hearts and not from random mortar shots onto the FOB.

That said, it always sounds odd to see a guy get the BSM without V, but its just the rules. Its actually more of an abomination for someone to get an MSM for doing anything in theater. As a exec, BQZip could probably tell you there are plenty of times certain ranks earn medals regardless of time in theater or duties performed....medals that lesser ranks have to spend a year working for and still probably won't get. Then you have the cross-service comparisons where a soldier spends 14 months walking downtown Baghdad and gets an achievement medal.

Regardless, the AF has gotten pretty damn tight about all those kinds of medals so chances are anyone who gets a BSM of any variety probably earned it.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Radio

[Hacker]

Anyone who knows anything can instantly tell the score when they see a medal citation or on a uniform. If there's no "V" on it....

[contraildash]

Anyone who knows anything can instantly tell the score when they see a medal citation or on a uniform. If there's no "V" on it....

...it's like seeing a space guy walking around ETAR in a bag, leather jacket, scarf, but alas no flying wings...

like you said, you just know....

On subject, there was some growing pains with the Combat Action Medal when it first came out. My cousin is a Tech in EOD, multiple tours in OEF and OIF, been shot at - shot back, ect. However, the AF didn't want to retroactively award the combat service medal to him or other members of his unit. (although it's retroactive to Sept 11, 2001) I think it had something to do with their being attached to the Army at the time. In the end he got it, but it took the better part of a year. His biggest complaint was that his folks didn't get the medal, but were outside the wire fighting, yet folks inside the wire were getting the AFCAM because they manned a "fighting position" while getting mortared.

In the end it was all a moot point. While he did end up getting his retroactive medal approved, he deployed yet again and got another AFCAM.

Personally, you can bash your head against the wall all day thinking about this kinda stuff, but in the end it's not really worth it. Undeserving people will get things, while others who really do won't. Story of life.

[Hacker]

Personally, you can bash your head against the wall all day thinking about this kinda stuff, but in the end it's not really worth it. Undeserving people will get things, while others who really do won't. Story of life.

Yay! Somebody gets it!

[Guest]

Anyone who knows anything can instantly tell the score when they see a medal citation or on a uniform. If there's no "V" on it....

I would say that is somewhat true with regard to the BSM.

Far worse abuse, IMHBAO, is the DFC which has no visible bullshitometer attached to it.

[Guest Crew Report]

I would say that is somewhat true with regard to the BSM.

Far worse abuse, IMHBAO, is the DFC which has no visible bullshitometer attached to it.

There are a few tanker guys with DFC's. I beg to differ.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

I've seen guys who were excellent leaders in combat zones with personnel under their command being awarded Silver Stars, BSMs with valor, Purple Hearts, and other pretty significant medals. Their leadership enabled them to do such heroic things, provided the training, and gave them the authority to do these acts. In one instance an MH-53 was shot down, the other -53 in the formation immediately turned back around, and, under fire, extracted the other crew. Not ONE person didn't give 100% or wasn't heroic. There were fists of medals handed out for that single event (14 I think).

You think a BSM would be appropriate for their commander whether or not he actually got shot at? I do. That's what it's there for.

That's a tough call. I've never sat exec or really had a hand in writing packages for medals and awards. There's definitely something to say for leadership having a hand in the excellence of what their guys do, but I don't think acts of heroism by your crew dogs should automatically qualify their leader who never left the base for the same recognition.

Hell, even if one of the guys in the back of the jet that I was actually flying finds something that turns out to save the day for a bunch of guys on the ground I don't think I would qualify for anything near the same recognition just by virtue of being on the same jet. I didn't do any of the work, I was just driving the bus.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a some DO or SQ/CC sitting in ops town at the deid putting him in for a medal for something his guys did in-country under fire, and a finance guy putting himself in for a medal for cutting the check to buy the gas that got the aircraft into country. The mission wouldn't have happened without either of their support and enabling, but neither of them were there actually making the effects happen and putting themselves at risk to do it.

[BQZip01]

That's a tough call. I've never sat exec or really had a hand in writing packages for medals and awards. There's definitely something to say for leadership having a hand in the excellence of what their guys do, but I don't think acts of heroism by your crew dogs should automatically qualify their leader who never left the base for the same recognition.

Hell, even if one of the guys in the back of the jet that I was actually flying finds something that turns out to save the day for a bunch of guys on the ground I don't think I would qualify for anything near the same recognition just by virtue of being on the same jet. I didn't do any of the work, I was just driving the bus.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a some DO or SQ/CC sitting in ops town at the deid putting him in for a medal for something his guys did in-country under fire, and a finance guy putting himself in for a medal for cutting the check to buy the gas that got the aircraft into country. The mission wouldn't have happened without either of their support and enabling, but neither of them were there actually making the effects happen and putting themselves at risk to do it.

I never said the commander never left the base, only that you should consider he was never shot at. In this case, it was a moot point. The commander WAS shot at, but imagine he'd just been fortunate enough to ''not'' get shot at, yet was still flying. If an MSM is justified, a BSM is justified in a combat zone; the regs are pretty clear on that.

Now if you're some fobbit actively trying to degrade/deny the medals of others AND you're trying to put yourself in the for same medals for doing less, yeah, you're a d-bag. However, realize that these paper pushers are ALSO eligible for combat zone medals if they are in a combat zone. If some Lt Col paperpusher is in Iraq for a year and goes out of his way to make sure that literally thousands of medals are efficiently processed making sure people get the crefit for heroic actions, fixes logistic problems across the country, etc and is eligible for the MSM for his efforts, he is appropriately awarded the BSM.

As for being at a desk at the 'deid and getting a BSM, I again caution you. I worked with the 720th ESTS and their commander made plenty of trips downrange and into the bush (sts), but his job location was technically a desk at the 'Deid. He got a BSM with Valor for his leadership under hostile fire; his folks were responsible for arranging one-way trips for large quantities of Taliban/Al Qaeda to see Allah. He was involved in several missions which I will NOT go into details about, but trust me, he deserved it.

[HerkFE]

I happen to know one Major who flew the tactics desk for a 90 day deployment to Manas, submitted his own Bronze Star package, it got rejected so he rewrote/resubmitted it and was awarded. Believe me, he didn't deserve it. This was back around the '04 timeframe.

[Hacker]

I would say that is somewhat true with regard to the BSM.

Far worse abuse, IMHBAO, is the DFC which has no visible bullshitometer attached to it.

Unfortunately true.

Guess you've gotta read the citations on those!

[BQZip01]

Unfortunately true.

Guess you've gotta read the citations on those!

Realize there may be additional narratives. Read those too.

[Guest]

Guess you've gotta read the citations on those!

Sadly, those are often inflated way beyond anything that actually happened. Shouldn't happen but it does (or at least did). A lot.

Medals are no measure of a man. Those that deserve them don't want them and those that want them don't deserve them.

[HerkFE]

Medals are no measure of a man. Those that deserve them don't want them and those that want them don't deserve them.

Awesome Rainman, I may have to borrow that sometime.

[Guest Alarm Red]

So a little while ago we had a WG/CC call. Part of the show for the day was the presentation of two Bronze Stars. Both to LRS types. In neither citation did I hear one mention of enemy fire. The closest thing I could discern was that one guy might have been present in a mortar attack. This is not the first time I've seen and heard of the BS being awarded to guys who were not under fire from the enemy.

Am I missing something, or is the BS becoming less of a medal for actual achievement, and more of another "thanks for playing" feel-good medal, similar to the Air Medal?

Yes, you are missing something. I know it's already been covered, but I'll throw in my $0.02 to crush this pervasive misunderstanding while I have the chance.

The BSM is awarded for heroic or meritorious achievement or service. The "V" device serves to denote combat heroism or valor and to distinguish it from meritorious achievement.

Per the USAF decorations AFI, this is the exact equivelant of the MSM for duties performed in a combat zone. That's pretty clear, and it's been like that or at least close to it, for all branches of the military, since 1944. Consider yourself educated.

Bronze Start w/ Valor is a different animal. That said, I don't like it either. If the Bronze Star has become the MSM for combat service, why not just award an MSM?

Because the AFI explicitly says to award the BSM instead.

The whole process, as the AF runs it, is horseshit, regardless of the with valor or without. Some army/marine PFC gets a BSM for pulling his buddy out of a burning HUMVEE under fire with shrapnel lodged in his back; some shoe clerk O-5/6 f%&k puts himself in for one after 4 months of "managing and directing" assets inside the wire at Balad. Its disgusting and it cheapens the value of the people who actually earned the medals the hard way.

Slow your roll, skippy. Before you start calling people out, try and learn a little something about the subject at hand. Nobody is trying to lump battlefield heroics in with rear-echelon activities. That's why there is a "V" device for the award.

What's 'disgusting' is the degree of quickness to which you chose to call out your leadership wholesale.

On subject, there was some growing pains with the Combat Action Medal when it first came out. My cousin is a Tech in EOD, multiple tours in OEF and OIF, been shot at - shot back, ect. However, the AF didn't want to retroactively award the combat service medal to him or other members of his unit. (although it's retroactive to Sept 11, 2001) I think it had something to do with their being attached to the Army at the time. In the end he got it, but it took the better part of a year. His biggest complaint was that his folks didn't get the medal, but were outside the wire fighting, yet folks inside the wire were getting the AFCAM because they manned a "fighting position" while getting mortared.

In the end it was all a moot point. While he did end up getting his retroactive medal approved, he deployed yet again and got another AFCAM.

1. You can't get two AFCAMs. Or even a device. It's a one-time deal.

2. If in fact people were awarded the AFCAM for receiving IDF at a FOB then the board was in error. However, having read most of the 'AFCAM board notes' that are posted on the AFCENT A1 page, where they almost always have a remark about too many packages being submitted for people receiving IDF at a FOB, I suspect that few if any people have received the medal for those circumstances.

[tac airlifter]

1. You can't get two AFCAMs. Or even a device. It's a one-time deal.

From the AFPC website: Only one AFCAM may be awarded during a qualifying period. Subsequent qualifying periods will be determined by the secretary of the Air Force. Only one award per operation is authorized. Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom are considered one operation. Subsequent operations will be approved by the Air Force chief of staff and will be indicated by the use of gold star on the ribbon and medal.

[Guest Alarm Red]

From the AFPC website: Only one AFCAM may be awarded during a qualifying period. Subsequent qualifying periods will be determined by the secretary of the Air Force. Only one award per operation is authorized. Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom are considered one operation. Subsequent operations will be approved by the Air Force chief of staff and will be indicated by the use of gold star on the ribbon and medal.

No shit. I stand corrected. The last I looked at any packages for this (sts) was within the first 3 or 4 boards from when it was started.

[Beaver]

Subsequent operations will be approved by the Air Force chief of staff and will be indicated by the use of gold star on the ribbon and medal.

Have subsequent operations been approved by the chief of staff?

[Hacker]

Medals are no measure of a man. Those that deserve them don't want them and those that want them don't deserve them.

This.

[BQZip01]

Medals are no measure of a man. Those that deserve them don't want them and those that want them don't deserve them.

I call Bullshit on this one. I can think of every single one of the Medal of Honor recipients and those medals are mere tokens of gratitude on behalf of a grateful nation. If you are a leader and you see something that is deserving of a medal, it is incumbent upon you to push for that public recognition for that individual/unit. To not do so WILL lead to your subordinates getting the shaft when efficient paper-pushers DO get medals for the same or even lesser effort/bravery. Those not properly recognized for their efforts will unnecessarily fall behind their peers.

Just because they don't want them, doesn't mean they haven't earned them.

Those that don't deserve them can certainly strive for the ideals that result in those kinds medals; I know I do. I do not strive for those hunks of ribbon and metal (For any of those that are meaningful to me, I would likely have to be in one hell of a mess and I certainly don't want things screwed up that much; I mean think of it: when did anyone get a MoH when things were running smoothly and we were completely kicking butt? I'd much rather decimate the enemy and get a friggin' achievement medal with a V... and that would only be because a single mortar crossed the fenceline by a few inches).

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I think most who deserve medals generally would shrug their shoulders either way, but still, sometimes the medal process is simply a bunch of BS designed to inflate some people's egos. Take for example my experience in the AOR during my short tour...there were Captains who were getting the mission done daily...flying with Iraqis that barely knew how to fly, writing AFIs for the IqAF...basically putting all the REAL parts and pieces of the IqAF together. The staff has their place, and certainly some of the staff guys deserved their medals, but I knew of several that got BSMs for doing nothing, and the only reason they got BSMs was because of the O-5 rank on their uniform.

Take one guy...he spent the year mostly sitting in his office reviewing OPR/EPRs, medal packages and arranging the powerpoint slides for the O-6. I never saw him actively advising an Iraqi, rarely saw him actually on the Iraqi base, and he spent (my guess) 80% of his working time over there in an air conditioned office doing paperwork. Yet he got a BSM automatically, simply because he was an O-5.

We had a captain who wrote several regs for the ENTIRE IqAF, helped set up their instrument training program, worked a number of FMS cases, actively flew and advised the Iraqis and did a number of other things that Captains rarely do, and we had to FIGHT to get that guy an MSM. The staff guys kept sending it back wanting to give him an AFCM, but we finally succeeded in getting him an MSM.

While I don't think he cared too much, it would have been a nice gesture to just approve the MSM automatically given all he'd done. Instead it was if the staff said "we don't care what he actually did, the bottom line is he's a Captain, which means he gets decoration ______."