Guest SATCOM Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I am a AD Chief and anybody (from E-1 to O-9) can discreetly, correctly and professionally handle these situations. It happens all the time. I remember being a young AMN, and I'm sure some of you remember being young LT's.....being dressed-down/embarrassed sucks. What I do remember though is the professionals that corrected me with knowledge, not ass-pain. I endeavor to be the same, and when I need to "assist", I do it on the sly. The reason most Chief's have the ability to "mess" with people is simple; they were young E-4/5/6's serving with young O-1/2/3's in various squadrons, and now both have stayed in for 20 plus years. Those E-9's know the O-6/7/8/9's in our USAF. I can call about ten O-7/8/9's from my Blackberry at this moment. Ex: A few months ago I was deep-sea fishing down in FL with a AD three star buddy. Here's the rub, if an E-9 is being an ass, then it's WRONG (unprofessional). They probably are NOT from the Ops side of the house and are INSECURE in their leadership abilities. If you have to get in their face, then do it. If you do this, be professional and direct. The comments above regarding the Army Command Sergeant Majors are somewhat true, but there's DEEP reasoning for this. The Army has less-intelligent troops to lead, therefore REASONING with them does not work. Yelling and physical intimidation are the norms. If this is what is leadership for YOU, then seek a career in the Army. I have spent 25 plus years working By-Through-With the Big Green Machine, and speak from personal experience. Just spent probably my last tour in OEF.....mainly dealing with the Army and saw this daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I am a AD Chief <snip> A few months ago I was deep-sea fishing down in FL with a AD three star buddy. You're kidding... ...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SATCOM Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 You're kidding... ...right? NO, why? Because I called him a buddy? Help me understand..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shaggy Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 You're kidding... ...right? NO, why? Because I called him a buddy? Help me understand..... Because heaven forbid an AD enlisted and officer hang out together and are actually friends. Chief, you should to this 3 star since you are a lowly Chief Anyway, my story is this. Had a 1st Lt pilot in my reserve squadron fly with a Little Rock AD squadron over in the sand box. He said one day they were getting lunch at The Deid and as he was walking up to the chow hall a Chief got on to him for the zippers on his shins not being zipped down. Said the Chief was a complete prick about it. He did it, but I asked him if that Chief saluted him prior to the stupid ass uniform ass chewing, and sure enough the Chief didn't follow customs and courtesies. It's funny how that works isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 NO, why? Because I called him a buddy? Help me understand..... I know fraternization is a fuzzy line, but that seems to cross it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NotAPilot Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I know fraternization is a fuzzy line, but that seems to cross it. Depends on who's boat it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter14 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I know fraternization is a fuzzy line, but that seems to cross it. You're kidding, right? C'mon folks. I'm an officer. Been TDY a lot over the years. Met some stand-up folks, both officer and enlisted both deployed and at home, although IMHO, more of a bond is formed at a tent-city base than at your 0730-1630 home drome rat race. Time marches on. People get promoted. That never changes the fact that you served with them when you were a Lt and they were a SrA and you were on the same crew/mx team/TACP/squadron that went through the good, bad and ugly on that deployment. You got orders out of there, but kept in touch to see how things were back at your first base. You got promoted, they got promoted. Just like that (at least it seems like that), you're a field grader and over halfway through a 28 year career. The aforementioned SrA is now a first shirt. A few years down the road, with a little luck, you'll both attain higher rank. Does that mean you shouldn't call them to have a beer/go fishing/catch a ball game when you get to their base on a TDY or even a PCS? Maybe I'm missing something, but if a jet from my first squadron came through my base, and one of the enlisted folks I served with and knew well was onboard and didn't look me up, I'd be pissed. Depends on who's boat it was. As long as it didn't belong to the Minnesota Vikings, I think you're OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I know fraternization is a fuzzy line, but that seems to cross it. Is there a point at which favoritism is involved in any capacity? This kind of R&R between leadership of the officer corps and enlisted corps can do wonders for the chain of command/morale/keeping everyone on the same page for the base/group/MAJCOM/etc. involved. There is no difference between this and a message board like this or the squadron bar (for those fortunate enough to have one...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Where should I start... I've been in a while, too - been TDY plenty, in both services. There's a difference between Es and Os having beers/drinks/fun as a crew/shop/unit, and an E of any grade calling a three-star fucking General Officer a buddy, AND participating in non-official Ahhh fuckit. My view, as an NCO, on fraternization is obviously very different from most of the responders. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Just so many "Wows" it's hard to believe. Guess the march of time has stepped right on by me... With very few exceptions, Chiefs were admirable folks and I paid them the respect I felt they earned for having reached the top of their rank structure. And, for the vast majority, they didn't get there by being tools. They were/are smart and experienced folks who got things done, both by the book and around it when extreme circumstances required it. Anyone in uniform should be able to point out gross buffoonery to anyone else, but in a very tactful way. Just as I never had one-way conversations with junior enlisted folks unless it was A) for effect or B) the addressee had been a deliberate tool in public, I never expected an NCO to berate me in public. If he/she did, it was cut off at the knees. If it was a "Hey, sir, you might want to check your hat..." or the like, then I was appreciative of the professionalism and grown-up way the incident was handled. I cannot believe that officers are putting up with the buffoonery being written about in this thread. Ok, 2Lt or 1Lt just out of training, I get. You're still new. That is when I expect the SNCO to step up and mentor, not be a tool. The reverse of that is I would expect the new Lt to STFU in most cases, listen, and learn. Again, situation dependent. Captains and above taking such sh1t? You're kidding me, right?! Commanders accepting/encouraging such behavior? Hello, Mr. IG/Congressman/CSAF. Unsat and a FAIL by leadership (which, of course, is the point of the thread.) Chiefs letting other chiefs get away with such buffoonery?! Again, YGBSM! I guess the signs are on the wall when you gave he who shall not be named, Dic Foglesong, et al, the Order of the Sword. Deeply disappointing. I have buds who wore stripes from back in the day. I have buds who outranked back in the day. We're grown ups. Yeah, I get it, I'm old and outta touch... One more thing: You kids get outta my yard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finance_Guy Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 All I want to know is who is the idiot that supposedly approved "Full Meal" rate for Flying Crew Chiefs deployed to the 'Deid? We are hearing of vouchers getting hung up for payment due to this fiasco. Any Flying Crew Chiefs out there have any good answers? Also, why the hell would you need full per diem at a deployed location when any/all meals are free and mostly available 24/7. Help me out here!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
163 FS Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Where should I start... I've been in a while, too - been TDY plenty, in both services. There's a difference between Es and Os having beers/drinks/fun as a crew/shop/unit, and an E of any grade calling a three-star ######ing General Officer a buddy, AND participating in non-official Ahhh ######it. My view, as an NCO, on fraternization is obviously very different from most of the responders. I'm out. Dude, I'm with you. I've been in for almost 14 years now in two different services in both E and O billets and I'm with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I'm in the camp of avoiding any contact with anyone superior or junior that even hints at any inpropriety. It's a slippery slope, one minute your just hanging out with your friend the next minute you are invariably talking about something work related. Maybe a couple of strings are pulled in someone's favor and most likely that was not even the goal, the goal was to hang out. The superior hears something he/she likes and puts it on the fast track. The subordinate didn't ask for anything it was just given, and the superior didn't purposely set out to help a friend out by using his rank/authority. There was no malicious intent it wasn't a you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours type of arrangement. It was just the by-product of an overly familiar relationship. I'm sure there are people out there that can tow that line, but to me it's a dangerous line to tow, and I'm not too confident in my ability to do it that's why I avoid it. Personal judgment and common sense are the key and fraternization is one of those issues where there is very little black and white and many shades of gray. Just hop on over to the Airman assaults an officer thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-21 Pilot Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 All I want to know is who is the idiot that supposedly approved "Full Meal" rate for Flying Crew Chiefs deployed to the 'Deid? We are hearing of vouchers getting hung up for payment due to this fiasco. Any Flying Crew Chiefs out there have any good answers? Also, why the hell would you need full per diem at a deployed location when any/all meals are free and mostly available 24/7. Help me out here!!! That's because, FCC's, esp the one's I deal with, spend VERY little time at the Died and 99.9% of the time on the road where most of the work is being accomplished - and hardly spend any time at said location. It's all in the rules.... Same thing as if I don't get approved a rental car, I can authorize a taxi for $74.99 w/out a receipt, but produce a rental car receipt for $40 and they go ballistic. YGBFSM....Same thing as if when I go TDY, and authorized $150 for a hotel, and stay in a $150 hotel, get bitched at for not saving money. bro, then go change the JFTR. YGBFSM...Same thing when I RON at the Died or Manas....I get approx $160 when meals are provided. Bottom line, if it's in the rules, and someone is benefiting from the rules, don't bitch. I can guarantee if the show was on the other foot and you were getting $$$, you wouldn't complain...now would ya'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 That's because, FCC's, esp the one's I deal with, spend VERY little time at the Died and 99.9% of the time on the road where most of the work is being accomplished - and hardly spend any time at said location. It's all in the rules.... Same thing as if I don't get approved a rental car, I can authorize a taxi for $74.99 w/out a receipt, but produce a rental car receipt for $40 and they go ballistic. YGBFSM....Same thing as if when I go TDY, and authorized $150 for a hotel, and stay in a $150 hotel, get bitched at for not saving money. ###### bro, then go change the JFTR. YGBFSM...Same thing when I RON at the Died or Manas....I get approx $160 when meals are provided. Bottom line, if it's in the rules, and someone is benefiting from the rules, don't bitch. I can guarantee if the show was on the other foot and you were getting $$$, you wouldn't complain...now would ya'. I'm complaining about a waste of taxpayer money. We don't need it and just because someone gets money and you might get it someday too, doesn't mean it is right. Furthermore, if they are on the road, then they can file a travel voucher and get the money they deserve. We don't need to pay every Chief out there extra money just because a lot of them aren't there (the logic of that last sentence makes me dizzy...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-21 Pilot Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I'm complaining about a waste of taxpayer money. We don't need it and just because someone gets money and you might get it someday too, doesn't mean it is right. Furthermore, if they are on the road, then they can file a travel voucher and get the money they deserve. We don't need to pay every Chief out there extra money just because a lot of them aren't there (the logic of that last sentence makes me dizzy...) I don't understand how one can state it is a waste of taxpayer money when you look at what is authorized. As a taxpayer, I don't care who gets what, as long as it's a fair and determinate system. You're not paying a FCC extra money, your giving him/her what their authorized in the JFTR. Why not take away the CZTE/HFP from the Died' and Manas as I don't see it eligible for either....however, both are still paid. What would save more $$$ in the long run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxhead Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Why not take away the CZTE/HFP from the Died' and Manas as I don't see it eligible for either....however, both are still paid. What would save more $$$ in the long run? Becasue then the very leadership that we are bitcthing about here would not get paid....and you KNOW that is never going to happen. Ever. Never. Nope. No Way. But, one day, someone crazy ballsy is going to get into a position to change something....and I can't wait. It's kinda like the secular/military version of my Catholic waiting for the second coming...you gotta have faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finance_Guy Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) That's because, FCC's, esp the one's I deal with, spend VERY little time at the Died and 99.9% of the time on the road where most of the work is being accomplished - and hardly spend any time at said location. It's all in the rules.... Same thing as if I don't get approved a rental car, I can authorize a taxi for $74.99 w/out a receipt, but produce a rental car receipt for $40 and they go ballistic. YGBFSM....Same thing as if when I go TDY, and authorized $150 for a hotel, and stay in a $150 hotel, get bitched at for not saving money. Fuck bro, then go change the JFTR. YGBFSM...Same thing when I RON at the Died or Manas....I get approx $160 when meals are provided. Bottom line, if it's in the rules, and someone is benefiting from the rules, don't bitch. I can guarantee if the show was on the other foot and you were getting $$$, you wouldn't complain...now would ya'. I know the rules for travel days, it's not the same as stationary days. But to put in the original orders "full meals" is BS for the 'Deid. CENTCOM AOR rules also say that if you travel within the AOR to locations with the same $3.50 rate, then you only get $3.50 for that travel day--also mentions this in the JFTR. I'm so sure FCCs travel every single day and have no days where they are at the 'Deid from 0001-2400. When do they get their crew rest? My bitch is someone is not following the rules. If you look a the CENTAF (USAFCENT or whatever they are now) AOR reporting instructions for the 'Deid, you will find all meals are available and directed at "no cost" to the member. So someone has manipulated the personnel community into putting full meal statement in the deployment orders. Those orders are done in error since there is previously published guidance--from a higher authority I might add. My point is "Follow the Rules" and whomever is driving this full meals for FCCs, needs to quit trying to circumvent the rules. Edited January 3, 2009 by Finance_Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finance_Guy Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) I don't understand how one can state it is a waste of taxpayer money when you look at what is authorized. As a taxpayer, I don't care who gets what, as long as it's a fair and determinate system. You're not paying a FCC extra money, your giving him/her what their authorized in the JFTR. The rules are flawed and those who wrote them never considered certain operational scenarios. Here's one I think BQZip is referring to and IS a waste of taxpayer money. I'm deployed to Turkey and meals are available at no cost--so I get $3.50/day. I depart Turkey at 1700 hrs, fly down range (say Balad), land at 2000 hrs, offload&upload, take off at 2200 hours back to Turkey. Land at Turkey at 0100 the next day. I don't know the airtime, but just guessing 2-3 hours. Ok, logically, where could I have spent any $$ for meals. I probably got a box nasty at no cost prior to leaving TU. I'm either flying or on the ground in the AOR. I could also probably request a box meal from the AOR location too at no cost. Here's the BS. Both days are treated as Travel days but since I left Balad before 2400 hours headed back to TU, for both days I get full meal rate for TU. Current daily rate is $72. So I just made $144 for two days and probably didn't spend a dime out of my own pocket. If the taxpayer knew about this JFTR rule as applied to real world scenarios, they would sh#t their pants. Maybe we should ask Obama what he thinks of this rule. It really needs some attention. There's an easy fix. Just add Turkey to the list of those AOR locations mentioned in the JFTR dealing with travel all within the CENTCOM AOR. Just add an exception for those deployed to TU--makes sense given the scenario. I know this probably would not apply to en-routes. Any of you deployed to TU (or have) are loving the JFTR "Rules" and know exactly what I'm talking about. Edited January 3, 2009 by Finance_Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jollygreen Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 So someone has manipulated the personnel community into putting full meal statement in the deployment orders. Or someone in the personnel community screwed up. May not want to jump to a conclusion that "someone manipulated" the personnelists. They can make mistakes - just like the finance airmen - and all other AFSCs out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finance_Guy Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Or someone in the personnel community screwed up. May not want to jump to a conclusion that "someone manipulated" the personnelists. They can make mistakes - just like the finance airmen - and all other AFSCs out there. No way. On the same order they listed other BS. Full size rental car, dual lodging, all communication charges and a few other items I won't mention. No way MPF made a mistake on all that. None of that is in the AOR reporting instructions. Someone is working them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jollygreen Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 No way. On the same order they listed other BS. Full size rental car, dual lodging, all communication charges and a few other items I won't mention. No way MPF made a mistake on all that. None of that is in the AOR reporting instructions. Someone is working them. "Someone" may be. But by your own words you note that the MPF is screwing up. Are they being manipulated, or did they make a mistake? Odds are the latter. I don't buy the "No way MPF made a mistake like that" since I have seen MPFs make these mistakes. They are human, mistakes happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finance_Guy Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 "Someone" may be. But by your own words you note that the MPF is screwing up. Are they being manipulated, or did they make a mistake? Odds are the latter. I don't buy the "No way MPF made a mistake like that" since I have seen MPFs make these mistakes. They are human, mistakes happen. My words were the orders were done in error--I didn't say MPF screwed up. If you mean MPF screwed up by letting someone pressure them into putting something on orders that shouldn't have been, then I agree. But to say MPF screwed up and magically put all those extra authorizations on an order on their own, that's where I say No way. There has to be some outside influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I don't understand how one can state it is a waste of taxpayer money when you look at what is authorized. As a taxpayer, I don't care who gets what, as long as it's a fair and determinate system. You're not paying a FCC extra money, your giving him/her what their authorized in the JFTR. Why not take away the CZTE/HFP from the Died' and Manas as I don't see it eligible for either....however, both are still paid. What would save more $$$ in the long run? Those flying into Iraq/Afghanistan from there certainly have the potential for lethal engagements and deserve CZTE/HFP. As do others who fly from there and into those places. As for stopping that pay for those at the 'Deid, I see no problem with that, but realize that the center of the runway is just over 2 minutes from Iranian airspace at Mach 2 (rough estimate). Considering the stance of the Iranians at this point in time, I think they just might deserve that bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jollygreen Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 There has to be some outside influence. Can you prove it? I can't. All we can say, based strictly on your posts, is that the MPF cut the orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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