Gun Talk

[Timbonez]

Anybody have any experience with this? I'm thinking about picking up one of these to swap out on my Noveske. Of course, there's the whole tax stamp thing as well, but this looks kind of cool.

Noveske 10" .300 Blackout

The 300BLK is a very new cartridge and Noveske is one of the few supporters for it. I've looked at the data for the cartridge and it is very intriguing. The fact that it uses the exact same parts on an AR-15, except for the barrel, as the 5.56 is also a plus. I considered buying one about a month ago, but I decided that I would wait until the cartridge becomes more established. Noveske, regardless of caliber, is one of the highest quality manufacturers for AR-15s, but I guess you already knew that.

300 AAC Blackout

[Soon To Be E6B]

Just to update, I ended up splurging and going with the P226 Navy for my first gun. In my opinion it's worth every penny. I love the ergonomics, the way it shoots, and not to mention the way it looks. I have put over 200 rounds through it without a problem and already want to pick up some more zombie killers

[Timbonez]

Nice SIG, E6. Keep shooting it and give us a range report.

[Guest AU27]

Having owned an HK USP .40, a Glock 23, and currently an M&P .40, I think I'll thrown my two cents in the hat. First of all, all three are SOLID weapons. The HK makes you feel like man just holding it. It's heavy it's large, and it will NOT fail you. The USP is one of those classics that you will always regret it if you sell it (I regret it every day). If you do a little digging you'll find that the USP platform was designed around the .40 cartridge. Strong chamber, slick operation, and ergo's that I felt were just right. YMMV. I will say it is probably suited best to shooters with medium to large hands.

Glock 23. Stone cold reliable and easy to conceal. The two things that come to mind first for me. But it's size comes with a disadvantage. Because of it's lightness and size, it also carries the heaviest felt recoil. Less mass to absorb the shock means more translates into your hand. Capacity was great at 13+1 if im not mistaken. It's been a couple years. All around a great weapon, I just found myself to be the least accurate with it.

The M&P .40. I dont know what to say about this weapon except to say that it shoots like a friggin laser beam. The bore axis is low, felt recoil is minimal, and it has the hallmark reliability of Glock and H&K both. S&W did their homework with this one. It is NOT a rebuilt sigma. Not a single part is interchangeable. So don't make the mistake of thinking it is. The interchangeable backstraps made it very customizable and with the large palm swell, melt into my hand. It really perfects the trigger reach when wearing flight gloves (such as a lot of soldiers do on patrol). Speaking of the trigger, it doesn't break quuuuiiiiteee as clean as the Glocks but it's right there with it and I actually feel that it's a smoother pull, and thereby prefer it. Short reset as well. For me it all came together to form my perfect sidearm. I can hit what I aim at, it won't let me down if I don't clean it all the time, it can take an a** kicking and keep sending rounds, and its the right price. Depending on where you pick one up it should fall right around the Glock and Beretta price range. (450-600).

Hope this helps

[Timbonez]

Having owned an HK USP .40, a Glock 23, and currently an M&P .40, I think I'll thrown my two cents in the hat. First of all, all three are SOLID weapons. The HK makes you feel like man just holding it. It's heavy it's large, and it will NOT fail you. The USP is one of those classics that you will always regret it if you sell it (I regret it every day). If you do a little digging you'll find that the USP platform was designed around the .40 cartridge. Strong chamber, slick operation, and ergo's that I felt were just right. YMMV. I will say it is probably suited best to shooters with medium to large hands.

Glock 23. Stone cold reliable and easy to conceal. The two things that come to mind first for me. But it's size comes with a disadvantage. Because of it's lightness and size, it also carries the heaviest felt recoil. Less mass to absorb the shock means more translates into your hand. Capacity was great at 13+1 if im not mistaken. It's been a couple years. All around a great weapon, I just found myself to be the least accurate with it.

The M&P .40. I dont know what to say about this weapon except to say that it shoots like a friggin laser beam. The bore axis is low, felt recoil is minimal, and it has the hallmark reliability of Glock and H&K both. S&W did their homework with this one. It is NOT a rebuilt sigma. Not a single part is interchangeable. So don't make the mistake of thinking it is. The interchangeable backstraps made it very customizable and with the large palm swell, melt into my hand. It really perfects the trigger reach when wearing flight gloves (such as a lot of soldiers do on patrol). Speaking of the trigger, it doesn't break quuuuiiiiteee as clean as the Glocks but it's right there with it and I actually feel that it's a smoother pull, and thereby prefer it. Short reset as well. For me it all came together to form my perfect sidearm. I can hit what I aim at, it won't let me down if I don't clean it all the time, it can take an a** kicking and keep sending rounds, and its the right price. Depending on where you pick one up it should fall right around the Glock and Beretta price range. (450-600).

Hope this helps

The Gen4 G22 and G23 use the dual recoil spring setup and help with the recoil.

[Guest AU27]

The Gen4 G22 and G23 use the dual recoil spring setup and help with the recoil.

While this is true, they haven't really had a chance to prove themselves to be as reliable yet. Maybe the .40s are, but the 9mm (17/19) are having issues with ammunition sensitivity. If the rounds are underpowered, the weapon doesn't cycle right. Who knows. I haven't myself shot a Gen4 as of yet. Still a safe bet though.

[Timbonez]

While this is true, they haven't really had a chance to prove themselves to be as reliable yet. Maybe the .40s are, but the 9mm (17/19) are having issues with ammunition sensitivity. If the rounds are underpowered, the weapon doesn't cycle right. Who knows. I haven't myself shot a Gen4 as of yet. Still a safe bet though.

You're right. But like you said, the problems have only been reported in the G17/19. The recoil springs on the Gen4 were originally designed for the the .40 caliber Glocks because of issues with using a rail mounted light/laser on the third generation .40s. You're not going to run into a problem with the G22/23 Gen4 even with the weaker .40 ammo. FWIW, I have a Gen4 Glock 17 and ran into problems initially with the first 200-300 rounds when I was using weak ammo. It's been reliable since that.

ETA: How many rounds have you put through the HK, Glock, and M&P? Please be as specific as possible.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Timbonez

[Guest AU27]

You're right. But like you said, the problems have only been reported in the G17/19. The recoil springs on the Gen4 were originally designed for the the .40 caliber Glocks because of issues with using a rail mounted light/laser on the third generation .40s. You're not going to run into a problem with the G22/23 Gen4 even with the weaker .40 ammo. FWIW, I have a Gen4 Glock 17 and ran into problems initially with the first 200-300 rounds when I was using weak ammo. It's been reliable since that.

ETA: How many rounds have you put through the HK, Glock, and M&P? Please be as specific as possible.

Sold the USP (read:pissed at myself) but had approx 1000 rds through it. Flawless. 1 FTE (stovepipe) from purposely limp wristing sideways on little to no lube on the rails. (First hand gun ever purchased...wanted to see how hard I could push it, and it kicked ass)

G23: maybe 500 rounds? All sent downrange with zero drama. Just didn't shoot it that well so I let go of it.

M&P: 550 rds last count. Again, zero FTE/FTF and easily MY best shooter. But thats just me. Everyone's experience will be different.

Sidenote: also have approx. 1300 rds through a Kimber Pro Carry and had a USP comapact with 600 rounds through it. Kimber just loosened up but it is a slick 1911 now. My favorite carry piece next to my G19.

Edited April 17, 2011 by AU27

[Timbonez]

I forgot to mention that I made it to the range with the S&W model 28, Highway Patrolman, today. I only put 152rds through it (100 158gr .38s FMJ, 26 125gr .38 +p JHP, and 26 158gr .357 JHP). It worked just fine, but I think I am going to replace the mainspring, rebound spring and cylinder stop spring. I'll provide a range review once I put another 500-1000 rounds through it.

[StoleIt]

The M&P .40. I dont know what to say about this weapon except to say that it shoots like a friggin laser beam. The bore axis is low, felt recoil is minimal, and it has the hallmark reliability of Glock and H&K both. S&W did their homework with this one. It is NOT a rebuilt sigma. Not a single part is interchangeable. So don't make the mistake of thinking it is. The interchangeable backstraps made it very customizable and with the large palm swell, melt into my hand. It really perfects the trigger reach when wearing flight gloves (such as a lot of soldiers do on patrol). Speaking of the trigger, it doesn't break quuuuiiiiteee as clean as the Glocks but it's right there with it and I actually feel that it's a smoother pull, and thereby prefer it. Short reset as well. For me it all came together to form my perfect sidearm. I can hit what I aim at, it won't let me down if I don't clean it all the time, it can take an a** kicking and keep sending rounds, and its the right price. Depending on where you pick one up it should fall right around the Glock and Beretta price range. (450-600).

Hope this helps

Awesome review. I am waiting for my PCS and then gonna snag an M&P9 VTAC. Love the look of it and have loved every M&P I've shot. Going to go with the 9mm since I already have a 45 and want something much cheaper to shoot.

[M2]

I gotta brag a little, was out at the range last week with a buddy and his wife. She has never shot a handgun before and he asked if I could bring out a few of my pistols for her to try (he just got a S&W Sigma .40, and that the only pistol he had). So I whipped out the GP100 .357 revolver and from about 7 yards, this was my first shot...

Obviously they were quite impressed, but I knew it was more luck than anything else. So I took my second shot and...

At which point my reputation as an eagle-eyed sharpshooter was solidified!

Seriously, the GP100 is a great pistol but I've never been this accurate with it before. Obviously, subsequent shots were not as good; but I had already sent them back to their shooting station so they didn't see those!

Cheers! M2

[uhhello]

Valdosta area gun ranges? From what I see online, the only "gun stores" are pawn shops. Looks like I'm stuck with online searches.

[Timbonez]

Valdosta area gun ranges? From what I see online, the only "gun stores" are pawn shops. Looks like I'm stuck with online searches.

It's been my experience, even in larger cities, that you are usually better off buying a firearm online and having it sent to a FFL who doesn't charge you criminally high transfer prices. This is assuming price is your priority. If you buy it online and it's located in another state you won't have to pay tax either. The two major downsides are that you have to wait for it to get to your FFL and you are buying something sight unseen. If it is a NIB item then it shouldn't be an issue, but buying something used I would want to see a ton of pictures of the firearm. That said, over half of my guns have been purchased online or through gunbroker, both new and used, and I haven't run into any major problems.

AU27, thank you for the info.

[Guest AU27]

AU27, thank you for the info.

Not a prob, happy to help.

[brickhistory]

I have seen my future with my latest acquisition and I can be at peace with it.

A dealer has been handling the consignments of an old man who collected for years and years. In all, more than 300 handguns came out of the various safes. Some, as he grew more frail, he put scopes on so he could continue to target shoot. Others simply sat in the box waiting their turn to the big leagues. This is the same collection that I got a barely used Springfield Armory Champion .45 from.

One of those awaiting the light of day was this:

Smith & Wesson Model 29-5 .44 Magnum Classic Hunter with 6" barrel.

While it was sold as "used," this gun had never been fired. It was in the original box with the papers. The barrel was pristine as was the unfluted cylinder and mechanism. Not the slightest hint of residue, solvent, or oil. It was immaculate and at $800 I was very happy to get it. Don't tell me I overpaid (I don't think I did) because for me it's simply buying a piece of Americana and worth every penny to me. That cylinder looks like a very pre- and early Civil War-ish revolver from back in the day.

That said, I made it definitely used this morning with 50 rounds of 240gr Magtech and 50 rounds of Blazer 200 gr .44 special. With the magnum loads, you could tell this was impressive, but it was not a wristbreaker or even mildly painful. With the specials, it was absolutely nothing, like a 9mm or the like to me. The mass of that heavy barrel and frame took everything and made it a dream to shoot.

The action is simply impressive and rock-solid. The target, i.e., wide hammer spur and trigger were very comfortable and the trigger is incredibly smooth. Totally guessing on the pull, but would put it a 4 lbs or so. Very light and smooth.

While I couldn't duplicate M2's bullseye photo, at 50 feet, every single round out of 100 went in the 10 ring of a B-27E target. The total area of that is probably 5" high and 4" wide. Now I've been shooting 200-300 rounds nearly every week for some months now so practice certainly helps, but this is the most solid, accurate handgun I've ever shot. (My dad had a pre-Model 29 when I was a kid and while I remember shooting it, I just remember the extreme weight and recoil of the thing. Being 13 and gangly vs. being late 40s and 200+lbs changes one's perspective immensely. Unfortunately, that gun went to an older brother upon my dad's death.) All the shots were slow aimed fire so nothing tactical attempted.

That said, it's heavy. While the recoil is very manageable, by the end of those 100 rounds, I had had enough of hefting the thing for those slow shots. There's a lot to this thing, mostly hardened steel.

I like this gun. A lot. The rich blueing and the classic walnut grips are just craftsmanship as art to me. This will never be a carry gun nor a shoot every week gun either. If it were, I'd put some rubber Hogues or the like on it as that grip is not quite big enough for my hand.

I got this one just to have it and I am very glad I did. I'll shoot it every once in a while, but I look forward to enjoying a nice bourbon and seeing it in pride of place in my gun cabinet one day.

Edited April 17, 2011 by brickhistory

[Timbonez]

Brick, that is a gorgeous S&W. I love their revolvers. I may purchase a pre-lock Model 29 sometime down the road. I owned one of their new production Model 29s, but sold it because I don't like that lawyer lock. All of the S&W revolvers that I currently own are pre-lock save for the Model of 1917 that I own. I removed the lock and replaced it with a filler so there isn't a hole in the side of the frame.

[El Guapo]

My girlfriend just told me she wants to get a gun to keep in her nightstand for when I'm not around. She got a gun pulled out on her over a year ago walking down the street in a very upscale neighborhood at 7 PM by a guy on parole, and the trial is still pending, but that's a whole other story. I'm not sure what to set her up with so I'd appreciate some suggestions. We live in San Francisco so a concealed weapon permit is not an option. She hasn't shot much, but I plan on taking her to the range and getting her real comfortable with whatever she gets obviously. I'm leaning toward a S & W 38 special. I know a shotgun is perfect for a chick alone but I really think for us a revolver in a nightstand next to her is a better option. Thoughts?

Edited April 19, 2011 by El Guapo

[M2]

My girlfriend just told me she wants to get a gun to keep in her nightstand for when I'm not around. She got a gun pulled out on her over a year ago walking down the street in a very upscale neighborhood at 7 PM by a guy on parole, and the trial is still pending, but that's a whole other story. I'm not sure what to set her up with so I'd appreciate some suggestions. We live in San Francisco so a concealed weapon permit is not an option. She hasn't shot much, but I plan on taking her to the range and getting her real comfortable with whatever she gets obviously. I'm leaning toward a S & W 38 special. I know a shotgun is perfect for a chick alone but I really think for us a revolver in a nightstand next to her is a better option. Thoughts?

I agree, a simple .38 revolver would probably be the best solution if 1) she's OK with having a pistol that has no safety on it around and 2) there are no youngsters that are ever in the place. If there is any chance of the latter, I would strongly recommend (read: insist) that you buy a small pistol safe. You can pick them up for ~$50 at any sports store or even Walmarts here in Texas but being that you are in California I am not sure how readily available they are. She just wants to have a way to lock it up when there are kids there.

Another option would be a .357 revolver, such as the Ruger GP100 as you can shoot .38s through it as well as the Magnum rounds. They are not that much more expensive but again I am in Texas where the Second Amendment is not shat upon like it is there. The only issue is that shorter barreled .357s can be handful for someone of a smaller statue…

Otherwise, your plan to take her to the range to see what she’s comfortable with is a good one.

Cheers! M2

[Timbonez]

A revolver is a very good first choice. They are easy to manipulate and to learn. Although they don't typically have an external safety, modern revolvers are double action handguns so their trigger pull is long and heavy (STS). It will always be a double action pull unless the hammer is manually cocked, in which it would be a single action pull that is very light and short. When practicing with a revolver, you should dedicate most of your time firing in double action as that is the way you will most likely fire it in a self defense encounter. Manually cocking the weapon is a fine motor skill, which will be more difficult to accomplish in a high stress environment.

A revolver chambered in .357 magnum would be an ideal choice, like M2 said. You will be able to fire .38 specials through it as well as .357 magnum (just a .38 special with 1/8th inch longer case). Since it is strictly a home defense weapon, I would suggest something that isn't too large nor too small. In other words a medium framed revolver is what you are looking for. The weight will be your friend to help tame recoil. The grip size will be comfortable and enable you to make accurate shots. Try to stick with a 3"-5" barrel as well. Anything longer than that and it might become too unwieldy for your girlfriend. Anything shorter and the velocity loss on both the .357 and .38 is substantial. That said, if you do go shorter than 3", I would simply get a revolver chambered in .38 special.

Smith & Wesson offers high quality revolvers, and is the company I would recommend first for a current production and/or used revolver. Look at their K/L frames, which are their medium sized guns: S&W K/L Frame Revolvers. Realize that the price listed is MSRP, and you will actually find cheaper street prices when looking for a handgun. If cost is an issue, Taurus would also be an acceptable option as well. If your eye is caught by the Taurus Judge, simply pass. That thing is a joke and has no practical use as a self defense weapon. Whatever you do end up buying, make sure you and your girlfriend practice shooting it regularly. Hope that helps.

ETA: Ruger is also another economical option. Forgot about them.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Timbonez

[Learjetter]

One of my buddies shooting combatives has me teaching my wife/kids to shoot with a "close hold" on the pistols. Theory goes like this...we want to extend our arms to create distance between us and the scary thing (intruder & gun)...but law of levers sez bad guy can take away or slap down pistol if it's held at arms length, especially from a weaker grip. So we're learning to shoot with pistol held very close to the body, and shooting only as a last resort after one loud vocal warning, and not stopping until half the mag is gone or threat is down. God willing, we'll never have to use these skills..

Technique only...

[M2]

One of my buddies shooting combatives has me teaching my wife/kids to shoot with a "close hold" on the pistols. Theory goes like this...we want to extend our arms to create distance between us and the scary thing (intruder & gun)...but law of levers sez bad guy can take away or slap down pistol if it's held at arms length, especially from a weaker grip. So we're learning to shoot with pistol held very close to the body, and shooting only as a last resort after one loud vocal warning, and not stopping until half the mag is gone or threat is down. God willing, we'll never have to use these skills..

Technique only...

If the bad guy is close enough to slap the weapon out of your hands, you've already fucked up! Trying to aim and control recoil while holding a pistol close in is very tough, and I wouldn't use/teach it as a primary technique. Hell, if anything people should learn to shoot offhand, or fast acquisition of a target before practicing that move.

Also, why would anyone give a vocal warning? You're not a police officer, and unless the state you reside in requires it (Texas does not), the only (and last) thing a threat in my house is going to hear is my first gunshot! After that, the only thing they'll be doing is bleeding out...

Oh, and the correct terminology is that the threat is stopped! A threat being "down" does not necessarily mean it is stopped. The police firearms training I went through a few weeks back now teaches to shoot and keep shooting until such a point that the threat has been negated.

Technique only.

[StoleIt]

If the bad guy is close enough to slap the weapon out of your hands, you've already fucked up! Trying to aim and control recoil while holding a pistol close in is very tough, and I wouldn't use/teach it as a primary technique. Hell, if anything people should learn to shoot offhand, or fast acquisition of a target before practicing that move.

Also, why would anyone give a vocal warning? You're not a police officer, and unless the state you reside in requires it (Texas does not), the only (and last) thing a threat in my house is going to hear is my first gunshot! After that, the only thing they'll be doing is bleeding out...

Oh, and the correct terminology is that the threat is stopped! A threat being "down" does not necessarily mean it is stopped. The police firearms training I went through a few weeks back now teaches to shoot and keep shooting until such a point that the threat has been negated.

Technique only.

Shoot first shoot often.

And my personal favorite: Anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting again.

[Learjetter]

If the bad guy is close enough to slap the weapon out of your hands, you've already ######ed up! Trying to aim and control recoil while holding a pistol close in is very tough, and I wouldn't use/teach it as a primary technique. Hell, if anything people should learn to shoot offhand, or fast acquisition of a target before practicing that move.

Also, why would anyone give a vocal warning? You're not a police officer, and unless the state you reside in requires it (Texas does not), the only (and last) thing a threat in my house is going to hear is my first gunshot! After that, the only thing they'll be doing is bleeding out...

Oh, and the correct terminology is that the threat is stopped! A threat being "down" does not necessarily mean it is stopped. The police firearms training I went through a few weeks back now teaches to shoot and keep shooting until such a point that the threat has been negated.

Technique only.

Our going in assumption in training is that we are surprised by the intruder(s). So only one of us gets a weapon during any one training session. The vocal warning has three purposes: 1) startle the intruder into departing the killzone post haste (desired outcome), 2) permit the shooter the knowledge that the intruder was warned before being shot, and 3) is as much a "war cry" as a warning--dispel enough stress to shoot straight and stop shaking, etc., in what will (hopefully) be a short, violent, stressful situation. In our scenarios, there's usually not much time between warning and trigger press.

"stopped" or "down" or "neutralized"...all the same to me=no longer a threat.

So, be Billy-Badass all you want, harp on my vocabulary if you choose, and insinuate your technique is better than anyone elses if you desire. I'm trying realistic scenario-based training designed to get my shooters focused on survival in very close quarters--the longest possible shot in my living room is less than 20 feet. I believe a close hold shot is the best way to keep hold of the gun and put lead on target at close range. YMMV, and I hope to God we never, ever have to put these techniques to the test.

[Mitch Weaver]

We live in San Francisco so a concealed weapon permit is not an option.

Why not?

CA CCW Application

[El Guapo]

Why not?

CA CCW Application

Currently there are only 5 permits in the city issued to non law enforcement. Only criminals are allowed to walk the streets with a gun here. Up until 2005, there were only 10 permits allowed to be out at any given time, and you have to be either a celebrity or a serious campaign contributor. Standard ops.