DirkDiggler

According to the 19th AF/CC guidance we got in an email last week, said individual WILL be put on administrative hold pending a determination of his/her future in the service. Whether the Bobs ultimately decide to wing him/her since according to the source he/she is syllabus complete I honestly couldn't say.

So who’s telling the truth? Edited to add: the news article in question has Fox quoting “sources” that said the calls were not secret, and that there were multiple people in the room including notetakers, State and DoD reps.

Agreed that there's a lot of spin going on.....from both sides. Last time I checked, even in the military justice system, someone is innocent until proven guilty. There's a lot of people out in the media and on this forum that are "raging for justice, throw him in prison, execute him!!" before all the facts are in. Maybe Milley did something illegal, maybe not. If Senator Cotton is to be believed, he's going to ask Milley in front of Congress in the next couple days. I'm willing to wait until more data is in before passing judgement over this issue. I haven't read the book (or any of Woodward's books for that matter), so it's difficult for me to definitively say or have an opinion that Milley was a primary source; I know you spent time up in the puzzle palace so assuming you'd have more insight into the goings on internal to that building. The most amusing thing to me about this whole story/situation is the different spin from the right and the left. Woodward's previous books on the Trump administration were pretty heavily denied/disparaged across the right leaning media because they didn't paint the administration in a favorable light. The left leaning media loved those books for the same reason. Now along comes the final chapter and people on both sides of the divide are are taking the words in said book as the god's honest truth, but for vastly different reasons.

If you could do me the favor of not quoting that Martian I'd appreciate it; it keeps the threads more coherent and you're quoting him complicates my blocking the garbage he posts.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/milley-chinese-counterpart-phone-calls-senate-testimony I would encourage everyone to read the entire article above and not just the headline. If you believe Fox News reporting, then it doesn't seem like the accounts in Woodward's book are 100% accurate to say the least.

Glad they're all ok!

It helps a lot to go under user settings and just block seeing his posts; keeps all these threads more coherent. Also, if I could ask a favor, try not to quote that Martian, it complicates my own efforts to not see the garbage he posts.

Fair enough, as a mobility guy I can't say I directly understand your struggles; I have helped carry an unfortunate amount of dead American SOF off the back of my airplane over the years and I'd be lying if I said that the last three weeks of events in Afghanistan have been easy for me to process either. If you ever need someone to vent to please feel free to DM, I sincerely wish you the best wherever you land. Unsolicited advice that you're free to disregard/ignore; don't end your time in the AF on a General or other than honorable discharge. I think you'd regret it in the long run.

Also, I have to ask, do you 100% believe (you said these are facts) all the reporting in that book? I generally take insider reports I see on sites like Fox and CNN with a grain of salt. Woodward’s last two books on the Trump presidency were pretty heavily denied up and down the Trump administration. And if you do believe the parts about Milley, do you also believe everything written about the Trump administration in those books?

That's fair, and to be honest, will probably never be known with certainty; his mood at the time was most likely due to a number of factors (obviously Watergate and the impending resignation played heavily). My previous post was not intended to state that Nixon's mood in Jul-Aug '74 was based solely on Vietnam, apologies if it came off that way. Lotta interesting things/claims came out in the early 2000s about Nixon regarding the amount of alcohol he was consuming and reported claims that he was taking Dilantin. Since he's long dead and different aides have made completely contradictory claims the truth probably never be know for certain. Apologies for the minor thread derail.

Actually not the first time something like has happened since the dawn of the nuclear age. Nixon's SecDef (James Schlesinger) reportedly gave military commanders similar orders in the waning days of the Nixon presidency after Nixon was drinking heavily, seemed depressed, had recently lost the Vietnam War, and was openly talking about his ability to initiate nuclear war on calls with senators.

Interesting report discussing the future of US foreign policy post Afghan withdrawal. https://www.csis.org/analysis/restoring-momentum-us-foreign-policy-wake-afghanistan

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2021-09-13/chinas-afghanistan-dilemma Pretty good article discussing the challenges China will face regarding Afghanistan. I found the part about China facing several areas of instability or challenges along multiple borders to be particularly thought provoking.

As I understand it, you lose some of of it but can still retain some as well. I only have second hand experience with this aspect of a General Under Honorable so I honestly don't know all the details. BLUF is that there's definitely some penalties for not completing your enlistment.

They absolutely should be repealed or at the very least renewed but they won't be. Right now Congress gets to have their cake and eat it too. They can argue either for or against the use of military force without having to actually go on record to vote for or against sending their constituents and said constituents' sons and daughters to war. A good majority of them rail against federal overreach and the expanding powers of the Executive branch but are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to voting to go to war.

Copy. Like I said, I'm speculating but my guess is whatever discharge the military gives for this will not be a straight honorable discharge because of the nature (refusing a direct order) and to be quite honest the UCMJ is on their side. If you don't mind me asking, do you want to get out because of the mandatory COVID vaccine or did you want to get out anyway and this just presents an opportunity to do so?

Email didn't say and I would guess the Bobs are still working those details out. My personal guess (disclaimer, I'm speculating) is it would be a General Discharge under Honorable conditions but I wouldn't rule out an Other Than Honorable depending on how the Bobs take a failure to follow a direct order (if there's any JAGs on here they'd have a better idea). I don't know on the non-voluntary separation pay (my gut feeling is that would be a no due to the circumstances of the discharge but I could be wrong). If you were discharged over this your ADSC would be removed. After the Anthrax shot legal challenge ended my community had an individual refuse a direct order from the Sq/CC to take that vaccine; it didn't go well for him. He was close to retirement and was ultimately allowed to retire, but that was the only positive for said individual. I've said it before but if this is your hill I understand, it's your choice, just be ready to die on it. All decisions have consequences. The military isn't going to fuck around with people who refuse a direct order. Barring some legal challenge that halts COVID vaccinations across the DoD you're going to have to make a decision. And even then, after the several years it takes the case to work it's way through the courts, the DoD is probably going to prevail and you'll still be faced with the same decision several years later, possibly when you have more invested in the military.

I did, but it was something about my car’s warranty being expired so I didn’t text him back.

In my personal corner of the AF (AFSOC) my squadron was sitting at over 85% vaccinated before it was mandatory. I do not know nor have I heard of anyone that’s planning to get out or request an exemption. I’m currently in an AETC MC-J transition course; yesterday we got an email saying the 19th AF/CC has dictated that any student in formal training that plans on requesting a COVID exemption will immediately be placed in an administrative hold status (frozen in training) until the exemption is processed and approved/disapproved; it went on to give a gist of if disapproved and the individual still refuses the shot they’ll be administratively separated from the service. If this truly is your sword make sure you’re ready to fall on it…

My community had a SMSgt FE retire about 3-4 years ago; he had his Private/Instrument rating complete when he punched. He knocked out his Commercial/CFI/CFII/MEI fairly quickly, instructed for a little bit, and is now flying for PSA I believe. BLUF is it's definitely doable. Good luck!

The fact that you and your commander think this COVID vaccination order is a complete joke is irrelevant. You've already been given a direct, lawful order by the SECDEF (MFR which was in writing) that all DoD personnel will get the COVID vaccination. Asking for a written order from your direct CC will not alter the above fact. Your choices are: 1. Get the vaccine. 2. Refuse a direct order and open yourself up to NJP in the form of I'd guess at least an LOR or Article 15, eventually leading to a discharge from the service. 3. Claim a religious exemption (honestly don't know the process for this or how it works) and see if it's approved. If not, you're back to options 1&2. 4. Separate from the military. Understand that even if this is an option for you and you choose it your commander can and probably will still have to give you NJP while you're in the process of separating.

At this point I'm not sure whether there will be any resignations among the top brass. Several of the retired ones (McMaster and Petreaus specifically) associated with Afghanistan general officer leadership aren't currently taking any responsibility publicly. Right now the narrative seems to be "we did our duty, served honorably, if anyone's to blame its our civilian leadership" (the last part isn't being said openly by the active duty guys). There's probably an element of truth to this but in my opinion its far from the complete story. Interesting book to read on the evolution of American generalship since WWII is The Generals by Thomas Ricks. The book only covers US Army generals and Ricks has some serious bias against the US military in many ways but its a very good read. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on what he has to say regarding US military senior leadership but I found it to be a pretty well researched and written study.

LBJ ending his bid for re-election in '68 is probably the closest the US Executive branch has come to a president resigning due to a massive foreign policy or military failure (the Tet offensive in '68 being what the media latched onto). LBJ also had several domestic issues brewing at the time that probably also played into his eventual decision to not seek re-election; tough to definitively say Vietnam was a single driving factor, though it was probably the biggest.

Fair enough, I still like to think people can respectfully talk disagree, even in this day and age. To your point #2 though, I'd have a follow up. I hold/have very little for anything any member in Congress says about Afghanistan for the simple fact that most of them (too lazy to look up the exact number, but I know its small) have abdicated their collective duty to declare war. Almost none of them were in Congress in 2001 and voted for the AUMF that put our guys into Afghanistan in the first place. So they all sit and make the rounds of the talking heads on whatever flavor of network they like, without being held accountable to their constituents for their views/beliefs on keeping us in combat. I'd have a lot more respect for the institution if there was a large scale push to re-visit the AUMF, declare war on the Taliban, or anything that puts them officially on the board with a vote that says they either support or do not support the war in Afghanistan.

Just listened to this and would highly recommend.