?s on logging flight time

[Guest IncompletePete]

I've noticed that a couple of people have said that without a PPL a civilian has zero chance infront of the AD board. I'm a little concerned by this as in the UK flight time costs 2-3 times what it does in the US and as a result I really cannot afford the requisite 45hours for a PPL.

So, to save cash, I was wondering whether the boards would recognise gliding time as flying hours? It's a world appart from flying a Cessna 152, but it costs a fraction of the price and I'd be able to get about 10 hours of gliding done for the price of one hour in a Cessna.

That way, I'd hope to get a decent amount of hours under my belt, even if I don't have a PPL.

Edited June 19, 2007 by IncompletePete

[Ill Destructor]

I can't comment on the part about glider time counting towards overall flight time, but don't believe that civilians have zero chance with zero flight hours. Plenty of people have been picked up without any time in the cockpit. It certainly makes it a little more difficult, but certainly not impossible.

[Guest AviatorFT07]

IncompletePete,

I have around 35 hours of glider time, and no one had a problem with me placing it on my applications. I just made a table splitting my time into "single engine," "multi-engine," "glider," you get the idea.

It was my introduction to flying, and having the experience helped me out quite a bit in powered aircraft...saved me quite a few instructional hours (and money) by teaching me basic airmanship and landing techniques. I would definitely recommend it.

[ChkHandleDn]

I have to completely agree with Aviator. I used all of my glider hours on both guard applications and my AD 215. It also helped my powered flying IMO. It teaches you to fly coordinated and think ahead of the aircraft. Either way, I recommend going that route initially. Try to get your glider's license if possible since it will be cheaper and build a good foundation for powered flight.

[GreasySideUp]

The only way you have a 0 chance is if you don't apply.

as the sig line says

Good luck and any flying you get will help both your chances and in UPT

-j

[sputnik]

I'll be good to Toro and revive this one.

At least I'm not alone in my utter confusion with other time. Here's a (mis?)understanding I have. If you're the A code aren't you still the PIC regardless of whether you're in the seat or not? On the forms you may split as prim/sec/other but isn't it all PIC? I mean, in AF we don't log PIC time. Prim/Sec on 781 is not directly equivalent to PIC/SIC...is it?

Same vein, if you're not the A code, despite the 781 can you ever legitimately claim PIC time? Despite how you handle the controls you didn't sign out the aircraft and you're not ultimately responsible. I don't think a regional copilot logs a .1 of PIC time until they have the left seat.

Help?

[pcola]

I have one computer logbook that I keep pretty well updated with all my civ and mil time, and I want to log it properly day to day (ie - as a co, even if my sortie is 9 hours long, I only log the 4 hours that I have access to the controls) so I don't have to go back through years and years of data to un-f*** it.

I'd much rather have an accurate/conservative log and have to wait 6 more months than try to push through something sketchy and get bent over.

On a side note, does anybody have/know where to get a decent excel spreadsheet electronic logbook they'd be willing to give up? I just want something simple, I thought about making one, but I'm not very good with excel so I decided to not reinvent the wheel if there's already some decent freeware out there. Thanks

[brabus]

On a side note, does anybody have/know where to get a decent excel spreadsheet electronic logbook they'd be willing to give up? I just want something simple, I thought about making one, but I'm not very good with excel so I decided to not reinvent the wheel if there's already some decent freeware out there. Thanks

Check out http://www.logbookpro.com. It's a really nice program and gives you tons of options. You can buy it from them, sportys, etc. OR you can definitely find it elsewhere...that's up to you. An excel program will do the basic trick, but this program's features are definitely nice to have.

[Guest Sparky]

other wise they'd have to pay the dead heads riding to their jobs in the jump seat of the airliners.

FYI...airliners do pay crew members deadheading to a location whether their sitting in the jump seat, first class or coach. Deadheads are crew members being relocated to pick up a line in another city outside their domicile or prepositioning to take over a fligth where crew duty day may be an issue. Also, if a crew member's trip ends outside his domicile, the airline will deadhead him home and he/she does get paid for that portion of the trip just as if they were at the controls.

Now, commuting to your domicile is another story. You do not get paid for that, but don't confuse it with "deadheading".

Here is what SWA thinks about "other" time:

Flight Experience:

2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined below is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Sparky

[C17Driver]

Here is what SWA thinks about "other" time:

Flight Experience:

2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined below is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered.

This "Other" time discussion is interesting. So for guys that fly in crew aircraft that routinely have more Pilots than required, the "Total" time we log is actually worthless.

[Guest Sparky]

This "Other" time discussion is interesting. So for guys that fly in crew aircraft that routinely have more Pilots than required, the "Total" time we log is actually worthless.

pretty much...just subract all your other time from your total time prior to putting that info on a resume for a flying job. You could do what I did in the B-52...I was a seat whore and rarely ever got out of the seat, most of the extra pilots we had on board anyway were co-rockets anyway so I didnt have a choice but I rarely logged any other time unless it was absolutely necessary.

[LJ Driver]

This "Other" time discussion is interesting. So for guys that fly in crew aircraft that routinely have more Pilots than required, the "Total" time we log is actually worthless.

Yeah but when you homos cross the pond 10 times a month that kind of makes up for it, don't you think?

[sputnik]

Yeah but when you homos cross the pond 10 times a month that kind of makes up for it, don't you think?

If you think that's bad you'll really love it when we make IP and log instructor time on each of those pond crossings.

[LJ Driver]

I don't think the airlines care too much about IP time though, do they?

[Guest Sparky]

I don't think the airlines care too much about IP time though, do they?

yeah...they really do, it is huge (sts).

[Guest IncompletePete]

My bad for completely forgetting about this original thread. I should have just bumped it up with more specific questioning and, whilst I had seen that thread Toro linked a while back, remembered that it was possibly/hopefully out of date.

Cheers for the advice, though. I've got a document kicking around at home listing the flight time = points classifications, however how current that is I don't know. Either way, I've got a feeling that I'm a fair few hours short of the third rung up the bracket ladder, hence I'm hoping that gliding time may be recognized by the AD board as a sign of passion for aviation, therefore boosting the application, as opposed to raw statistics building.

Any opinions would be greatfully received.

[Jon - Trident Home Loans]

Having a PPL is common for AD board guys, but is not a pre-req. If it was then they'd list it as one. You can make up for limited hours by having a kickass pilot score on your AFOQT and doing well on the TBAS. Those 2 scores combined with your flying hours equal your overall PCSM which is really the key to getting selected by the AD Board. If you can pull over a 90 PCSM then you'll be pretty well setup. All you'll have to do from there is write a good 215 and hopefully have some awards to include in it. Remember the AF is looking for well rounded guys to pick for UPT. Just my 2 cents...Good Luck!

Edited January 3, 2008 by flyaf05

[sting]

On a side note, does anybody have/know where to get a decent excel spreadsheet electronic logbook they'd be willing to give up? I just want something simple, I thought about making one, but I'm not very good with excel so I decided to not reinvent the wheel if there's already some decent freeware out there. Thanks

There's a couple decent excel logbooks on this site:

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_.../Itemid,85.html

[dc58]

How should C-12 time be logged as a student? Is it dual or SIC, and does it matter if you have a Comm Multi? I apologize to those who do not like debating this subject, just trying to make the logbook legit for civilian interviews in the future.

Thanks

[stract]

h'ok, resurrecting an old thread...

situation: HH-60 pilot (MP) updating my logbook into Logbook Pro (great program, btw). I'm to the section where I'm about to enter all my FTU time from MC IQ. All my UPT time (T-34 and UH-1H) I logged as dual except for my solo flights. At the conclusion of UPT and after getting my wings, I took the mil comp test and got ratings for Commercial ASEL and RW, as well as Commercial Instrument ASEL and RW. Then I went to FTU at KIKR.

I'm looking at my civvie logbook right now, and it appears I logged some time at KIKR as Dual and some other time as PIC, in the same sortie. I'm not sure if this is correct or not when it comes to the FAA, but it's what was on the 781s (dual figured from how much IP time the IP logged in the sortie, which didn't always equal the sortie total time).

Since I didn't have a Form 8 yet, can I log PIC time? HH-60 is a dual-pilot aircraft.

I read the above discussion about MC vs MP and PIC vs SIC; I'm not too worried about how the airlines will look at my PIC/SIC time and if I had the A code or was a co or AC at the time as an airline job isn't really in my future as a helo pilot.

I just want to know if I have a Commercial RW and Instrument rating from the FAA, can I log PIC time before I get my initial Form 8 or should it all be Dual?

If the answer to the above is that it should be logged as Dual time: Once I get my Qual/Inst checkride, can I log Dual AND PIC time after that while I'm still at the FTU (prior to my MSN checkride), i.e. portions of the flight that aren't TAC and the instructor doesn't log IP time?

PIC time being the sole manipulator of the controls in the cases described above.

[Guest rotorhead]

Disclaimer: I make no claim to have all the answers when it comes to the civilian logbook manipulations.

I would find it exceedingly hard to believe that any student (regardless of UC MC UP MP or checkride level) at KIKR has EVER been in command of a 512th RQS aircraft. In my simple brain, there is always a permanent party pilot on board and in charge (as shown on the flight auth), whether as an IP on a student sortie or as an MP on a support sortie to find a dropped object from a 130. If you log dual time, you are undoubtedly within the integrity lines. PIC seems like a big stretch to me.

[stract]

I agree, but at some point I wrote it in my personal logbook that way, and looking at it the other day it didn't seem right. So the question becomes, during my MCIQ, any leftover time in the sortie not logged as instructor time by the IP would be SIC for me, with regards to the FAA? Or should I just do the math and make it all Dual time, up to the point of my Qual check and then go with the "leftover" SIC time after that?

[Guest JT]

For the "250 hrs flight in an airplane as PIC, or SIC in training for PIC...":

How much of the T-6, T-1, C-130 flight time can I count towards this? I had my Comm-Inst-multi-single eng before I started fixed-wing qual, but not high-performance sign off if that matters. Can I count the T-6 time as PIC after I soloed? Does all the T-1 and C-130(schoolhouse and unit) time count as SIC? My printout doesn't break it down and I couldn't log PIC/SIC on those, but I can in my logbook for "pilot on controls." Will that matter and which will they use? Keep in mind that I will not count any of this as PIC for a job interview, just trying to get my ATP. Any help would be greatly appreciated! If there are any FAA designees on here that I could contact, please let me know also.

Thanks,

JT

[Hacker]

The real question is, WITHOUT your UPT time, how close are you to the 1500 hours?

Second, did you have your FAA ticket before you started SUPT?

There are plenty of ways to creatively log your USAF time depending on how close you are and how many total sorties you have.

A F-16 bud of mine kept his own logbook in which he kept FAA times, logging "aircraft moves under its own power" and "primary manipulator of the controls" time -- the two areas where military time diverges from how civilians do it. This USAF time was something like 1200 hours, but by his FAA-style timekeeping he had nearly 1600.

When I was in UPT, the Memphis FSDO told me that my T-37 time could be logged as PIC after the Midphase checkride, since that was the time that I became "qualified" in the airplane at the same level as my Private ticket.

[Guest JT]

I was a prior helo guy, so I meet all the other times, it's just the 250 in airplane requirement I'm trying to scrape together. Yes, I had my Comm-Inst multi-single airplane prior to FWQ. Since there is no midphase checkride, would the Contact checkride be when I start logging PIC?

Thanks,

JT