Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[reloder]

What is GUPT?

[Clark Griswold]

What is GUPT?

General UPT, regular T-6 then advanced trainer phase


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[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

General UPT, regular T-6 then advanced trainer phase


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Otherwise known as Grandpa's UPT. 

[reloder]

2 hours ago, Biff_T said:

Otherwise known as Grandpa's UPT. 

I suppose that includes me...T-41/T-37, and T-38 at Moody, 1967. Leaving aside the issue of airframe age,  would not this type of pilot training meet the needs of today's aircraft and mission types?

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, reloder said:

I suppose that includes me...T-41/T-37, and T-38 at Moody, 1967. Leaving aside the issue of airframe age,  would not this type of pilot training meet the needs of today's aircraft and mission types?

But then we couldn’t cut training and lie and say we’re innovative and agile.

 

Instead of just saying, we want to produce more pilots, senior leaderships has determined this is the ALR to produce more pilots with resource constraints.

[Boomer6]

9 hours ago, reloder said:

I suppose that includes me...T-41/T-37, and T-38 at Moody, 1967. Leaving aside the issue of airframe age,  would not this type of pilot training meet the needs of today's aircraft and mission types?

The bobs dont have the balls to publicly acknowledge they can't produce their own requirement of 1500 pilots/year with our current resources and lack of retention. Instead of standing up and telling the giga-bobs this fact, they're massively cutting the training you received to produce more, drastically less experienced, pilots to keep the slides green.

For old bastard reference:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=giga

Edited September 9 by Boomer6

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

The bobs dont have the balls to publicly acknowledge they can't produce their own requirement of 1500 pilots/year with our or current resources and lack of retention. Instead of standing up and telling the giga-bobs this fact, they're massively cutting the training you received to produce more, drastically less experienced, pilots to keep the slides green.

For old bastard reference:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=giga

This

Why at least one 3 star or above can’t just say something euphemistic about all these UPT changes/thrashes and begin to level the wings, ask for a supplemental from Congress and just fix this.

Project Liberty has room for criticism but it did get ultimately what it was created to do, deliver quickly and reliably an acceptable solution, not perfect but not bad either.  That same kind of VFR direct to a 2 mile final is what is needed.  If ACC / PACAF can just say screw the source selection method just buy the E-7, budget shenanigans aside after that public direct call for it by Gen Wilsbach in 21, then a GO could call for a surge and fast recapitalization of UPT.

No pointless “reimagining” or other bullshit, just buy already flying trainers, remission a Guard or Reserve Wing if required to expand capacity for some time frame and just get it the hell done.

[Clark Griswold]

Just adding for info on how the Brits still do it, contractor/mil mix…

 

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/embraer-phenom-100-multi-engine-pilot-trainer-aircraft/?cf-view&cf-closed

https://ascentflighttraining.com/aircraft-profiles-phenom-100/

From Google AI

During multi-engine pilot training (MEPT) with the RAF, students receive a total of 67 hours of live flight time in the Phenom T1, along with 47 hours in a simulator.

This training is delivered by 45 Squadron as part of the UK Military Flying Training System (MFTS) at RAF College Cranwell. 

The total flight hours for Phenom T1 students are split across two distinct phases of training: 

• Phase 2 Multi-Engine Training: Students receive 14 live flight hours in the Phenom T1 and 14 synthetic (simulator) hours over six weeks.
• Phase 3 Multi-Engine Training: This phase, which lasts 35 weeks, provides students with an additional 53 live flight hours and 33 synthetic hours. 

https://ascentflighttraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/NFTE2024-Campus_Accreditation_Report-RAF_Cranwell-GBR-FINAL.pdf

Only 5 jets but damn it if they can figure it out we can too

 

[HuggyU2]

https://htxlabs.com/news/craig-wills-joins-htx-labs-as-senior-vice-president-of-defense-programs/
 

https://houston.innovationmap.com/htx-labs-air-force-ai-2671762577.html

 

 

[Clark Griswold]

On 9/16/2025 at 8:22 AM, HuggyU2 said:

https://htxlabs.com/news/craig-wills-joins-htx-labs-as-senior-vice-president-of-defense-programs/
https://houston.innovationmap.com/htx-labs-air-force-ai-2671762577.html

Very convenient to now be employed there after being on the other side of the table from them

https://redstate.com/jimthompson/2025/09/18/disgracednavy-4-star-robert-burke-sentenced-to-6-years-in-prison-n2194101

[Clark Griswold]

@LookieRookie

Did a contractor like Ascent referenced above ever approach AETC about a long term program like the Brits have?
 

[yzl337]

10 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

@LookieRookie

Did a contractor like Ascent referenced above ever approach AETC about a long term program like the Brits have?
 

wouldn't matter, it won't fit the determined timeline. I've been involved with this from the UPT side and now the MDS side from the MAJCOM HQ perspective. The only thing that matters is hitting the magical 1500/year mark, quality be damned. Doesn't matter if we can't even absorb 1500/yr, we are determined to produce them, even if it means banking a portion of them. A 35-week program like the Brits have for ME training is a complete non-starter. 

 

[Boomer6]

3 minutes ago, yzl337 said:

wouldn't matter, it won't fit the determined timeline. I've been involved with this from the UPT side and now the MDS side from the MAJCOM HQ perspective. The only thing that matters is hitting the magical 1500/year mark, quality be damned. Doesn't matter if we can't even absorb 1500/yr, we are determined to produce them, even if it means banking a portion of them. A 35-week program like the Brits have for ME training is a complete non-starter. 

 

I'm assuming based on you're comment you have at least a slight peak behind the curtain. Do the bobs there have the intestinal fortitude to admit amongst themselves that quality is rapidly dropping, or are they so delusional they actual believe what they're briefing to ops units?

[Clark Griswold]

33 minutes ago, yzl337 said:

wouldn't matter, it won't fit the determined timeline. I've been involved with this from the UPT side and now the MDS side from the MAJCOM HQ perspective. The only thing that matters is hitting the magical 1500/year mark, quality be damned. Doesn't matter if we can't even absorb 1500/yr, we are determined to produce them, even if it means banking a portion of them. A 35-week program like the Brits have for ME training is a complete non-starter. 

Reminds me of the 80s movie Gung Ho, make 15,000 cars a month or else…quality be damned

Banking, enrichment training, etc…. If 1500 aeronautical ratings per FY is the one metric to go by then wing’em but give them post graduate training/enrichment training post T-6 and winging.

Choir preaching but if there is waiting prior to FTU then give the Bobs a “win” while fixing the glitch 

I’m just a rando on BO but the training / program I’d advocate for would be affordable in the grand scheme, earlier I estimated about $230k in training costs, probably it would a bit less.

Call it Mobility Pilot Training, whatever but justify by accomplishing tasks that these guys would be doing in their MQT after FTU, giving training & familiarity with NVGs, STOL, etc…

If the FTUs can’t intake, build an infrastructure that can productively occupy your recent graduates while reducing subsequent training costs and risk, better prepared students perform better in WAY more expensive to fly aircraft and sims.

Buy the training you need not new airplanes if the Bobs push back on acquiring new iron.

Establish 3 programs, feather in grads from each of the main UPT bases as availability allows.

- STOL program using a ME aircraft like a Twin Otter or Cessna Courier.  Application to ACE is self evident and time/experience building.

- Tail dragger course.  Builds stick and rudder skills.

- Sim based course for Transport category, probably should be the last course but introduction to fully automated flight deck, management of systems, experience building.