Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[BashiChuni]

i cannot wait for Trump to shut down this ukraine misadventure.

[BashiChuni]

11 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

You make it sound like they've been holding out an olive branch for decades and we just keep spitting in their face. Russia and China have been poking and prodding at our weaknesses and vulnerabilities for at least two decades. 

 

Y'all have some serious self-loathing I just don't understand.

russia wanted to join nato. rebuffed.

russia wanted a peace deal. the US scuttled it.

russia warned us not to keep advancing nato east. rebuffed.

russia warned us that ukraine joining nato was a red line. we plowed full steam ahead in 2008...disregarding warnings from Germany and France AND our own CIA.

 

these are facts and they are undisputed. the facts are the US has been poking russia in the eye since 1990s because we can.

[SurelySerious]

russia wanted to join nato. rebuffed.
russia wanted a peace deal. the US scuttled it.
russia warned us not to keep advancing nato east. rebuffed.
russia warned us that ukraine joining nato was a red line. we plowed full steam ahead in 2008...disregarding warnings from Germany and France AND our own CIA.
 
these are facts and they are undisputed. the facts are the US has been poking russia in the eye since 1990s because we can.

This is how we know you’re delusional in a basement somewhere. Collective defense against Russia is the main reason NATO exists. Having them join would be inviting the fox to guard the henhouse; they would be able to obstruct anything they want, just like they do on the UN Security Council. Do you get paid for this nonsense?

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

America is a state, not just an ideal. Obviously we all love the ideal set forth by the founders, but what America is-and-does today is part of America, and in this case, the "self" we are referring to. "Us" is the more appropriate word, but we do not normally say "us-loathing." The past is nothing more than a memory. America (and thus "us/self") is what we are doing as a nation today. Something a handful of posters here portray in a very negative, and thus self-loathing manner.

My friend, if you wouldn't mind, could you possibly provide me with a single solitary instance from any reference you feel is credible of a "self-loathing" definition that even slightly includes the criticism of one's nation/government/etc?

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I have no patience for redefining terms. You can be a moron and make every bad decision in the world and still love yourself. You can be doing a bang-up job and still self-loathe. Lets not play the semantic games every fuckwad professor since Derrida plays in trying to win an argument by pissing on the dictionary. You're better than that. Bashi is not. 

You have no patience for it... yet you created a definition for it that is found nowhere outside of this conversation, and invented another term that doesn't exist (us-loathing). You can't have it both ways, brother.

You're attempting to collectivize all things America is and does so that anytime anyone has a criticism, you can accuse them of "loathing" their own nation. You have plenty of grievances yourself. Does that mean you loathe America?

Me, Bashi, You, and everyone else should be allowed to vehemently express our disapproval with the actions of a handful of people that have the make decisions for us with out being accused of hating our Nation. They are not America.

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But bfargin, Bashi, and a few others repeatedly veer into some variation of we brought this on to ourselves. That's self-loathing.

No, it isn't. If you strike a match and light the woods on fire and the neighborhood burns down because of it, there is no "we brought this on ourselves" simply because we live in the same place. You fucked up.

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

See above. Also note: I did not reply to you when I said self-loathing. As far as I can remember, you have kept mostly to the financial argument, where we disagree, but not to blame the US. And if I recall you were very critical of Putin in his interview with Tucker claiming this was all the West's fault. But for simplicity and clarity, do you believe we provoked Russia into their "special operation" against Ukraine? By "provoked" I mean to say that Russia's invasion is in any part justified by our actions prior to the invasion.

Nope. I've given a dozen reasons for being against the conflict. The financial aspect being one of them. Absolutely I'm critical of Putin. You know I can write, and I could write a book on why Putin sucks and Russia is a worse place to live, but who cares? I'm not in Russia. If I were to give you the options "It's all Russia's fault, It's all the USA's fault, or some amount of fault lies on both sides", which would you choose? To directly answer your question, I 100% absolutely without a doubt believe we made mistakes along the way that Russia used as justification. Doesn't mean they were right, it just makes it a little more difficult to say they were wrong.

We (this time I do mean me and the rest of the country) are both paying dearly for mistakes made on both sides. It's past time to negotiate an end. Where the hell to you think the current trajectory is taking us? Russia has nukes, and demonstrated yesterday they can deliver them at Mach 14. Yeah, so can we... but what you're hoping for is a Pyrrhic victory at best. I get a little amped over this because I have a big family, kids, and now grandkids. I've participated in conflicts myself and had no real concerns over my own well-being. But if someone becomes a threat or creates a risk to the people I care about, I am violently offended. The way I see it, Russia doesn't pose a direct threat or risk to them. The actions of our leaders do, so I feel compelled to speak about it.

 

[gearhog]

Trump summons NATO’s Rutte to Mar-a-lago to get a peace deal. 
 

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

This is how we know you’re delusional in a basement somewhere. Collective defense against Russia is the main reason NATO exists. Having them join would be inviting the fox to guard the henhouse; they would be able to obstruct anything they want, just like they do on the UN Security Council. Do you get paid for this nonsense?

because in 1990 we fucking beat them and the cold war was over. it was us vs the soviets not us vs russia

[SurelySerious]

because in 1990 we ing beat them and the cold war was over. it was us vs the soviets not us vs russia

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Putin is the Soviets. They never went away.

[BashiChuni]

2 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Putin is the Soviets. They never went away.

NATO existed to fight the soviet union. when the cold war ended, and russia was broke, they wanted to join europe. we vehemently said no.

that is by definition russia extending a olive branch to the west.

post 1990 there was NO reason to keep expanding NATO, a MILITARY ALLIANCE, right up to the border of russia. the russians told us this would piss them off. our own intelligence said that would piss them off.

we DGAF and did it anyway. and now we are FAFOing

Edited November 23, 2024 by BashiChuni

[SurelySerious]

NATO existed to fight the soviet union. when the cold war ended, and russia was broke, they wanted to join europe. we vehemently said no.
that is by definition russia extending a olive branch to the west.
post 1990 there was NO reason to keep expanding NATO, a MILITARY ALLIANCE, right up to the border of russia. the russians told us this would piss them off. our own intelligence said that would piss them off.
we DGAF and did it anyway. and now we are FAFOing

Yeah, your assumption that russia was healed and everything was kumbaya and they were ready to join the west and that all the soviet influence was gone is incredibly, INCREDIBLY, flawed. Hence the aristocracy moving Putin into power to help restore Soviet glory. You’re real selective about your “facts.”

[BashiChuni]

and yet they remain facts. putin can't even capture kiev...how TF is he going to "restore soviet glory"? put the crack pipe of fear mongering down.

meanwhile this lame duck administration is trying as hard as they can to get us involved into WW3 before 20 jan

[SurelySerious]

and yet they remain facts. putin can't even capture kiev...how TF is he going to "restore soviet glory"? put the crack pipe of fear mongering down.
meanwhile this lame duck administration is trying as hard as they can to get us involved into WW3 before 20 jan

Translation: Bashi was totally wrong and can’t admit it. Double down!

[BashiChuni]

keep blindly trusting in the national security state that has lied to you since 1945!

now we have UK and France discussing deploying troops inside ukraine...what could go wrong! i'm sure putin is just BLUFFING come on guys 🤡

[BashiChuni]

[FourFans]

Trying to imagine what Bashi's line would have been in 1939

[bfargin]

Another dumbass comparison to WWII. Seriously?

 

Even if your comparison was valid, none of our plans/thoughts could be worse than fdr’s. He completely had his head buried deep on pretty much any and all important policy positions (except got to extend and strengthen a depression). We didn’t do anything for years during WWII. If I remember correctly after Dec 7, 1941 we declared war on Japan but not Germany. Germany ended up declaring war on us!

[BashiChuni]

the WWII comparisons show a profound lack of historical and current event understanding

simpletons.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, FourFans said:

Trying to imagine what Bashi's line would have been in 1939

[SurelySerious]

Aggressive Russian assassinations across Europe since 2000 which were definitely justified by NATO’s existence, and not because a former KGB member, Soviet state dreamer came into power: http:// https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-11-22/putin-s-assassination-targets-revealed-in-declassified-memo

[Lawman]

Aggressive Russian assassinations across Europe since 2000 which were definitely justified by NATO’s existence, and not because a former KGB member, Soviet state dreamer came into power: http:// https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-11-22/putin-s-assassination-targets-revealed-in-declassified-memo

He’s not even going to pretend to acknowledge all the “mystery fires” and sabotage or the no kidding Russians that have been arrested carrying out actions in Europe.


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[gearhog]

41 minutes ago, Lawman said:

“Mystery Fires!”

 

 

[Stoker]

8 hours ago, FourFans said:

Trying to imagine what Bashi's line would have been in 1939

Poland was part of the German Reich only twenty years ago! The Allies have really put us in a threatened position by surrounding us with an alliance, the Little Entente! Many of the people there really vibe with us ethnically and not the Poles! Poland is really just a corrupt autocratic state anyways. Besides, there's no way Britain/France can help Poland, so it's a waste trying.

[FourFans]

7 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Because I study history.  How about your line in 1948-9 as Korea was getting tee'd up.  Or perhaps the early 1960's with Vietnam?  Hell, what was your stance in the 1980's as were arming the Iraqi's AND Iranians?

Bottom line in ALL these cases: When America makes an international promise and then doesn't back it up with action, we lose big when we have to clean up the mess later.  We also lose allies. Key allies. It would be very nice if our leadership would THINK before making promises.

Our history has proven that it costs far more lives to back out of a promise now and have to fix it later than it does to stick to our word and put our munitions and young men where our politicians' mouths led us.  It's sucks, but it's true.

Edited November 26, 2024 by FourFans

[jice]

8 hours ago, bfargin said:

Another dumbass comparison to WWII. Seriously?

 

Even if your comparison was valid, none of our plans/thoughts could be worse than fdr’s. He completely had his head buried deep on pretty much any and all important policy positions (except got to extend and strengthen a depression). We didn’t do anything for years during WWII. If I remember correctly after Dec 7, 1941 we declared war on Japan but not Germany. Germany ended up declaring war on us!

Except for lend lease (‘41), tax incentives for companies producing war goods (‘39,) a peacetime draft (‘40), a government reorganization to facilitate a war footing (‘39), civilian pilot training program (‘39), embargoes against Japan (‘40), freezing Japanese assets (‘41), training Brit pilots in Texas (‘41)… the list goes on and on.

[Lawman]

Except for lend lease (‘41), tax incentives for companies producing war goods (‘39,) a peacetime draft (‘40), a government reorganization to facilitate a war footing (‘39), civilian pilot training program (‘39), embargoes against Japan (‘40), freezing Japanese assets (‘41), training Brit pilots in Texas (‘41)… the list goes on and on.

I was gonna say the better comparison would be the jackasses stateside telling us that war over there wasn’t our problem and what Germany was doing wasn’t really that bad.

Luckily some of our grandfathers didn’t gargle Reddit level stupid coming out of a coordinated IA campaign.


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[BashiChuni]

2 hours ago, FourFans said:

Because I study history.  How about your line in 1948-9 as Korea was getting tee'd up.  Or perhaps the early 1960's with Vietnam?  Hell, what was your stance in the 1980's as were arming the Iraqi's AND Iranians?

.

is your argument all of those were successes? i wouldn't have gotten involved in any of those