Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Lawman]

tens of thousands of American lives for useless wars. that enough for you?

For Christ sake…

You are an American. You sit in the velvet rope section of being the single Super Power atop the panicle of Human Achievement and experience.

How do you think we got here? Because our great grand parents damn sure didn’t experience that position in the world. More importantly how do you think we managed to stay there all these decades?

By your bullshit metric every life lost training at Red Flag or service member killed in a rollover at NTC was “wasted,” because it didn’t come as a tally in a massive global conflict we could stand around in the ashes of and call ourselves the winner. Deterrence and effects of statecraft and influence cost blood and treasure. They cost a lot less than results of disengagement and apathy leading into a wider global conflict.


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[BashiChuni]

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.

theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.

also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

[Lawman]

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.
theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.
also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

What Asian trade partners would we have in Asia right now if we sat on our ass in Korea for your example. How much trade would we do with a unified peninsula under the DPRK and what would that then do for our economy.

Middle East same question during the Tanker war or the current stupidity off the Red Sea.

Foreign policy is an active game, you can’t just sit it out. We aren’t Monaco.


Again listening to you talk about the deaths and regional conflicts we “lost,” is like listening to a guy up millions of dollars at the casino still bitching about that 20k loss he took 6 hands ago. You’re winning, recognize that.


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[DSG]

10 hours ago, Lawman said:

What do you think set global conditions to stabilize and evolve enough to allow that?

Exactly what did we squander?


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The U.S. is in imminent peril of being ejected from the western pacific by a country that had a triple digit gdp per capita in recent memory.  

[Lawman]

The U.S. is in imminent peril of being ejected from the western pacific by a country that had a triple digit gdp per capita in recent memory.  

You mean that country that imports most of its Food and fertilizer along with all of its energy via the Ocean… that country?

The one that could be singularly isolated because it can’t project power further than those Island chains/peninsulas that all hate and surround it during a conventional conflict?

The one that has lied about 5% GDP year on year growth because we know it’s BS and is currently in a demographic free fall while we (the developed world) all make movements to reshore the sunk cost of cheap manufactured goods out of it?

I’m not saying China and US going at it doesn’t result in collective pain for the world because any conflict between the great powers will (hence why unified western support of Ukraine is such a good deterrent). But the Idea that China’s trajectory is just gonna keep increasing and they come out of this to supplant us is a dream.


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[FourFans]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.

theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.

also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

You do understand that simply stating something is wrong doesn't make your statement true, right?  That's how the left argues.  You're arguing the prove of a negative event...which is impossible.  Also, simply calling his analogy BS doesn't mean he's wrong.  You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

(this is me presenting evidence, because you seem to completely ignore when people do that): Those of us who've actually been downrange and seen and experienced the cost of our modern fights have at least a shadow of a leg to stand on in our arguments.  I've see and experienced the cost of our fight.  I've lived in countries that doesn't have our freedoms.  The cost we've paid has been dear, and entirely worth it.  If we hadn't fought in Vietnam, Korea, Saudi, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other war that you argue we shouldn't have, it stands to reason that the US would not have the stranglehold it does on world economic, political, and military power.  People who've never left America say we don't have that stranglehold.  Those who've paid attention when the live abroad can't even begin to present a logical argument against US dominance, it's THAT powerful (that's a logical argument based on factual observations).  Reason tells us that the US wouldn't have that dominance if we hadn't engaged internationally of the past 80 years.  The facts of the matter are that our dominance can be directly traced to our engagement worldwide.  Yes it's dangerous, but history tells us that engaging is risky, but not engaging is often much more risky.  "Wait and see" tactics have often proven disastrous in international politics.  Moreover, ethics and morality dictate that we have a responsibility to engage in places where the strong are wrongly preying on the weak.  

What is it that you've experienced or what facts do you present to support your claim that the US should have been completely isolationist?

Edited January 20, 2024 by FourFans

[DSG]

11 minutes ago, Lawman said:

You mean that country that imports most of its Food and fertilizer along with all of its energy via the Ocean… that country?

The one that could be singularly isolated because it can’t project power further than those Island chains/peninsulas that all hate and surround it during a conventional conflict?

The one that has lied about 5% GDP year on year growth because we know it’s BS and is currently in a demographic free fall while we (the developed world) all make movements to reshore the sunk cost of cheap manufactured goods out of it?

I’m not saying China and US going at it doesn’t result in collective pain for the world because any conflict between the great powers will (hence why unified western support of Ukraine is such a good deterrent). But the Idea that China’s trajectory is just gonna keep increasing and they come out of this to supplant us is a dream.


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The mere fact that such scenario is plausible is indicative of criminal incompetence among our policy “elite.” 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

What Asian trade partners would we have in Asia right now if we sat on our ass in Korea for your example. How much trade would we do with a unified peninsula under the DPRK and what would that then do for our economy.

Middle East same question during the Tanker war or the current stupidity off the Red Sea.

Foreign policy is an active game, you can’t just sit it out. We aren’t Monaco.


Again listening to you talk about the deaths and regional conflicts we “lost,” is like listening to a guy up millions of dollars at the casino still bitching about that 20k loss he took 6 hands ago. You’re winning, recognize that.


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you are so out of touch

agree to disagree. guess what? we'd have some asia trading partners if korea wasn't there. we'd have someone in the ME to sell us oil.

i'm not saying to sit out FP. i'm saying ours has been a disaster.

American combat deaths and causalities post WWII shouldn't be glossed over and written off. what did the men who died in vietnam really die for? what did the men and women who died in afghanistan and iraq die for? as a participant in the armed forces i'd hope you would have a little more empathy for your fellow servicemen who are sent into the battle.

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, FourFans said:

You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

 

i dont have time right now to respond to your entire reply but yes i do have factual data.

we have not won a military conflict since WWII. that's factual. and logical.

[DSG]

1 minute ago, FourFans said:

Do you understand that simply stating something doesn't make it true, right?  You're arguing the prove of a negative event...which is impossible.  Also, simply calling his analogy BS doesn't mean it's wrong.  You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

(this is me presenting evidence, because you seem to completely ignore when people do that): Those of us who've actually been downrange and seen and experienced the cost of our modern fights have at least a shadow of a leg to stand on in our arguments.  I've see and experienced the cost of our fight.  I've lived in countries that doesn't have our freedoms.  The cost we've paid has been dear, and entirely worth it.  If we hadn't fought in Vietnam, Korea, Saudi, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other war that you argue we shouldn't have, it stands to reason that the US would not have the stranglehold it does on world economic, political, and military power.  People who've never left America say we don't have that stranglehold.  Those who've paid attention when the live abroad can't even begin to present a logical argument against US dominance, it's THAT powerful (that's a logical argument based on factual observations).  Reason tells us that the US wouldn't have that dominance if we hadn't engaged internationally of the past 80 years.  Moreover, ethics and morality dictate that we have a responsibility to engage in places where the strong are wrongly preying on the weak.

What is it that you've experienced or what facts do you present to support your claim that the US should have been completely isolationist?

“Reason” argues no such thing.  “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

[FourFans]

Just now, BashiChuni said:

we have not won a military conflict since WWII. that's factual. and logical.

So Desert Shield, Panama, Grenada, Kosovo, Haiti, Northern and Southern Watch...those didn't happen.  Cool.  Very factual of you.

[FourFans]

3 minutes ago, DSG said:

“Reason” argues no such thing.  “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

How so?  Again, simply stating an opinion doesn't make it true.

Edited January 20, 2024 by FourFans

[DSG]

21 minutes ago, FourFans said:

How so?  Again, simply stating an opinion doesn't make it true.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  Still, it’s striking that in America, it’s those that present themselves as “weak” that are the biggest bullies and thieves.  Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.
 

Your appeal to reason lacks evidence and is non-falsifiable; there is no control group scenario in which America husbands its strength instead of “engaging.”  I see an enormously powerful economic engine, powered substantially by inertia, that continues to dominate the world in spite of its government and foreign policy, not because of it.  Not a libertarian statement, by the way.  I believe government can play a commanding and positive role — ours just isn’t such an example. 

[Lawman]

So Desert Shield, Panama, Grenada, Kosovo, Haiti, Northern and Southern Watch...those didn't happen.  Cool.  Very factual of you.

Current actions in the Red Sea…

The Tanker Wars, Prime Chance, and Praying Mantis…


But remember, unless a major global power ceases to be afterward through complete capitulation of its government it’s a loss and total waste of effort in his brain.


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[Lawman]

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  Still, it’s striking that in America, it’s those that present themselves as “weak” that are the biggest bullies and thieves.  Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.
 
Your appeal to reason lacks evidence and is non-falsifiable; there is no control group scenario in which America husbands its strength instead of “engaging.”  I see an enormously powerful economic engine, powered substantially by inertia, that continues to dominate the world in spite of its government and foreign policy, not because of it.  Not a libertarian statement, by the way.  I believe government can play a commanding and positive role — ours just isn’t such an example. 

What?

I’ll just take ISIS for an example but have you been in Iraq in the last decade?

You’re making an argument we have no moral righteousness in use of our military but we were fighting guys literally putting Christian and other Muslim villages to the sword over there like it was the 14th century.


And remember we have been the world’s most powerful economy since before our participation in the First World War. We had surpassed the British and German Empires… that didn’t stop them from having two world wars. And now that the economics of the world are global in supply and resource chains there is absolutely no way to sit it out. Unless you want to just absorb whatever happens to the price of everything because we can’t move ships off the Red Sea anymore just as an example.


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[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, DSG said:

Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.

And which countries are the icons of morality in your mind?

Especially considering you just said this, pardon me for considering this statement a bit ironic.

2 hours ago, DSG said:

 “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

 

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, DSG said:

“Ethics and morality” are made up. 

3 hours ago, DSG said:

Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.

Please feel free to explain how, if Morality is made up, America has no moral leg to stand on.  If America makes up it's own morality, how does any sort of international opinion matter?  Your logical and (made up) Reason are kinda breaking down.  Kinda sad, because I'm beginning to think that you and I share a lot of views in common.

Edited January 20, 2024 by FourFans

[DSG]

1 hour ago, FourFans said:

Please feel free to explain how, if Morality is made up, America has no moral leg to stand on.  If America makes up its own morality, how does any sort of international opinion matter?  Your logical and (made up) Reason are kinda breaking down.  Kinda sad, because I'm beginning to think that you and I share a lot of views in common.

America doesn’t live up to its own values, made up or not.  Which is fine — liberal pieties are dumb.   I just have an allergy to self righteous hypocrisy, something which seems to be the stock and trade of our betters.

[FourFans]

24 minutes ago, DSG said:

America doesn’t live up to its own values, made up or not.  Which is fine — liberal pieties are dumb.   I just have an allergy to self righteous hypocrisy, something which seems to be the stock and trade of our betters.

That, we agree on for certain.  Our only proper option is to not take part in that game.  But that's a moral decision, now isn't it?

P.S. I understand who you're talking about, but I wouldn't call them 'our betters'.  I'd agree with "those who are in power"

Edited January 20, 2024 by FourFans

[DSG]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

And which countries are the icons of morality in your mind?

Especially considering you just said this, pardon me for considering this statement a bit ironic.

 

I wouldn’t call any state a shining paragon of anything.  The ideological zealotry of the American elite, however, is uniquely insufferable and dangerous.  If they’re willing to throw aside their fiduciary duties to promote a cross dresser, war isn’t far behind.  We’ve already seen the application of “democratic peace theory” in the Middle East, and it’s been a bloody disaster.  They are under no significant selection pressure and have a vast economic reservoir to draw on; their potential for further ruin is significant.

[BashiChuni]

9 hours ago, DSG said:

The ideological zealotry of the American elite, however, is uniquely insufferable and dangerous.

very well said.

[HeloDude]

So weren’t we hearing from the WH and the media 1-2 months ago that if Ukraine didn’t get mass additional funding right away that they wouldn’t be able to defend themselves from Russia?  

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

So weren’t we hearing from the WH and the media 1-2 months ago that if Ukraine didn’t get mass additional funding right away that they wouldn’t be able to defend themselves from Russia?  

In many ways it is true. 

The Ukrainians, using our tech, have been inflicting personnel losses at a 5:1 ratio (10:1 when it comes to armor and fighting vehicles), that being said, the Russians in typical manner have settled into a battle of attrition which is their ideological way of war.  Unfortunately for Ukraine, Russia has three times the population and Vlad seems content to continue to throw his country's youth into the meat grinder.  Additionally, Russian industry has been cranking up tank production and while they continue to lose their vehicles fast than they can produce them, they still have deep reserves and without continued replacements the Ukraine force will degrade.

[Lord Ratner]

12 hours ago, DSG said:

The ideological zealotry of the American elite, however, is uniquely insufferable and dangerous.

You just keep saying absurd things. Uniquely dangerous? Insufferable?

How many of our citizens have we slaughtered on the shrine of Americanism? Where is our Stalinist purge?

 

The suffering of the American people at the hands of our politicians, regardless of how incompetent, is only unique in how minimal it has been

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

In many ways it is true. 

The Ukrainians, using our tech, have been inflicting personnel losses at a 5:1 ratio (10:1 when it comes to armor and fighting vehicles), that being said, the Russians in typical manner have settled into a battle of attrition which is their ideological way of war.  Unfortunately for Ukraine, Russia has three times the population and Vlad seems content to continue to throw his country's youth into the meat grinder.  Additionally, Russian industry has been cranking up tank production and while they continue to lose their vehicles fast than they can produce them, they still have deep reserves and without continued replacements the Ukraine force will degrade.

agree CH. which is why Ukraine cannot win. UNLESS the west throws their own manpower into the mix a la WW3. Something that is not in the best interest of the United States.