Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[BashiChuni]

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

[ecugringo]

40 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Expanding NATO to Russia’s doorstep needs to stop. We cause our own worst problems. 
 

if anything their poor military performance demonstrates how they are NOT a threat to Europe 

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

[BashiChuni]

Just now, ecugringo said:

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, ecugringo said:

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

Noone forced them to join but every single NATO nation had to agree and allow it, and NATO is very selective. Russia applied for NATO and was told no. 

Again I think there is momentum to derationalize man who is acting very rationally and by doing that you risk him being able to outmaneuver us in thought. This isn't a tantrum. Putin wants something. What is it? 

[hockeydork]

1 minute ago, BashiChuni said:

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

Actually all he's really done is ensure the west arms itself to the teeth and does its best to crash the Russian economy. He is actually going to help the West, but kill a bunch of innocent people in the process. Just like a true dictator, like every, single one that has come before him, blinded by his own arrogance.

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I don't know about you folks but I am sick to my stomach watching this unfold.  I am older than most of you and I remember the cold war, there was always an uneasy feeling in the background as we looked across the wall at the USSR.  I remember the joy and celebration when the wall came down, the hope, watching freedom on the faces of many formerly oppressed people.  There is no reset button, our relationship with Russia will obviously be very dark for years to come, in my lifetime things will never be the same.  I was watching CNN a little while ago and the story and picture of the Ukrainian Father crying over his dead son...I can't even process it thinking of my own son.  Like many of you I flew a lot of combat missions and saw a lot of horrible things, but this is fucked up and it is only going to get worse.  How will we be remembered by history?  As we sit by and let potentially millions be slaughtered.  I know there is no easy answer and we have peeled this onion every way possible but it is a hopeless feeling to watch this brave people getting mowed down.

Turns out that the post-cold war thaw was too good to be true and it was always an uneasy peace. We probably missed some opportunities to engage with Russia in the 90s but as soon as Putin came to power the jig was up. Unfortunately his ascent conveniently (for him) coincided with our distractions in the Middle East and Afghanistan. We couldn’t have picked a worse time to take our eye off the great power geopolitical ball and now we have a real bad actor to deal with in Russia and, depending on our response to this crisis, potentially China. It’s time to buck up and face the new adversaries/same as the old adversaries in the only terms they’ve ever understood. The good news is the free world is taking notice and moving in the right direction. The question is: Are we willing to fully commit? It is an absolute tragedy and travesty that Ukrainians are paying for our distraction with their lives and maybe their country. We need to take the 30 thousand foot view though & understand that if we have that commitment, we can achieve our goals without a direct confrontation that is likely to go nuclear. The leaders who won the Cold War understood that concept. Time to settle back into those old rhythms. 

[Smokin]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

The fact that he warned the west doesn't make it the west's fault that he invaded a sovereign country without even a hint of a pretext.  Your argument is basically the same as "she wore a mini-skirt, so she was asking to get raped".  Not ok.

[Sua Sponte]

44 minutes ago, kaputt said:

So is intentionally causing a melt down at a nuclear power plant the same as using a tactical nuke? 
 

3.6 Roentgen. Not great…not terrible.

[ecugringo]

1 minute ago, BashiChuni said:

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

The question will be for the west:  do u let a free nation become destroyed and annihilated in your back yard? There is interest.  Natural gas flows through Ukraine.  Kazakhstan has a massive oil play.  It needs to go through Ukraine or the Black Sea to reach market.  We can’t ship enough lng for demand in Europe. If we had balls we’d stop Russian crude from market and increase production ourselves but Biden is too focused on trying to look green.

Putin is all in.  Theres no going back now.  Conquer Ukraine just to be economically isolated isnt a win.  
 

 

[Prozac]

6 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

Knowing your enemy doesn’t mean giving them a pass to do whatever they want. Don’t tell me that’s not what you were advocating when you said NATO expansion should stop because that’s EXACTLY what Putin wants. You want to know your enemy to avoid a fight when possible, but also because once in a while you might have no choice but to fight them. 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Prozac said:

Knowing your enemy doesn’t mean giving them a pass to do whatever they want. Don’t tell me that’s not what you were advocating when you said NATO expansion should stop because that’s EXACTLY what Putin wants. You want to know your enemy to avoid a fight when possible, but also because once in a while you might have no choice but to fight them. 

So why should NATO expansion go forward? 

Putin is just supposed to be happy that an alliance created to deliberately overthrow his country is allowed to continue getting stronger while he has to continue to sign arms treaties and contain his foreign policy sphere? 

[goingkinetic]

NATO is a defensive organization. Exactly what wars has NATO initiated?

[ecugringo]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Noone forced them to join but every single NATO nation had to agree and allow it, and NATO is very selective. Russia applied for NATO and was told no. 

Again I think there is momentum to derationalize man who is acting very rationally and by doing that you risk him being able to outmaneuver us in thought. This isn't a tantrum. Putin wants something. What is it? 

Didn’t know Russia applied.

 

agree. I don’t think anyone knows what his end game is. He’s not dumb.  He’s out maneuvered our presidents.  I can’t envision  Putin not seeing the sanctions and thinking we’ll I’ll take Ukraine and a month later they’ll be more focused on the kardashisns by then.

he’s been on their border since November.  This is just a piece of the grander scheme.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, goingkinetic said:

NATO is a defensive organization. Exactly what wars has NATO initiated?

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

[FLEA]

Just now, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

To give some more context, Ukraine's ascension would have allowed the US to proposition a force on the Russian border very similar to the force Russia just prepositioned on the Ukraine border. That's what Russia was terrified of. 

[goingkinetic]

Just now, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

Russia could have stayed a democracy, they could have joined the EU, they could have joined the Euro. Instead they chose to feel sorry for themselves like Germany in World War II. Would you apologize for Japan saying we forced them into war by limiting access to resources?

[FLEA]

Just now, goingkinetic said:

Russia could have stayed a democracy, they could have joined the EU, they could have joined the Euro. Instead they chose to feel sorry for themselves like Germany in World War II. Would you apologize for Japan saying we forced them into war by limiting access to resources?

Bro they tried all of that. The west didn't trust them and kindly removed Russia's hand from their shoulder. 

The west wasn't ready to trust Russia post WW2, and Russia became skeptical of why the west continued to hide cooperation if they were really intent on peace. 

[FLEA]

Just now, FLEA said:

Bro they tried all of that. The west didn't trust them and kindly removed Russia's hand from their shoulder. 

The west wasn't ready to trust Russia post WW2, and Russia became skeptical of why the west continued to hide cooperation if they were really intent on peace. 

I do stand slightly corrected. I don't think Russia has ever applied for the EU (NATO yes) 

Why would Russia apply for the EU though? It would be detrimental to their sovereignty and their economy. 

[goingkinetic]

How long did Yeltsin last? They just chose Communism under a different name. Instead of the state owning all property putin does. That is why he won’t push the button, but he will cause a Nuclear power plant to blow up to sow further fear. Might as well call him the scarecrow from Batman.

[Prozac]

4 minutes ago, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

It’s no secret to Russia or anyone else that NATO has always been about collective defense. No “insider baseball” necessary. Putin would certainly like the world to believe that narrative though. It makes it easier for him to threaten his neighbors. I’m sure he REALLY likes it when people like US service members, politicians, and media influencers buy off on that narrative. Stop falling into his trap. 

[goingkinetic]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

To give some more context, Ukraine's ascension would have allowed the US to proposition a force on the Russian border very similar to the force Russia just prepositioned on the Ukraine border. That's what Russia was terrified of. 

What would you consider Cuba and Venezuela? I consider them Proxy states. 

[FLEA]

Just now, Prozac said:

It’s no secret to Russia or anyone else that NATO has always been about collective defense. No “insider baseball” necessary. Putin would certainly like the world to believe that narrative though. It makes it easier for him to threaten his neighbors. I’m sure he REALLY likes it when people like US service members, politicians, and media influencers buy off on that narrative. Stop falling into his trap. 

Sure, collective defense. That's the excuse all of NATO is going to use to invade Belarus when they see a Russian exercise there as an excessive force build up. 

Here's a fact for you, the US doctrinely plays the offense in war. We don't wait to be attacked we teach to open with shock and awe. Putin knows that. He knows "defense" can be shammed for an offensive operation because he essentially just did that. 

Its not being duped. You lack the creativity to see the world without your American rose tinted lenses and therefore can't come to terms with your adversaries motivations. 

[Prosuper]

So if Putin attacks Sweden and Finland and they are "not" part of NATO but "did" deploy troops to Afghanistan under NATO command. Let's just admit them to NATO to prevent what happened to Ukraine. Plus, Finland has US equipment already so they can integrate well with the rest of NATO. If we would have accepted Ukraine into NATO a year ago instead of listening in on a phone call to score political points this tragedy would not have happened. I'm to the point that when I see anyone wearing a tie, I go to default mode that they are full of shit until proven they are not

[FLEA]

4 minutes ago, Prozac said:

It’s no secret to Russia or anyone else that NATO has always been about collective defense. No “insider baseball” necessary. Putin would certainly like the world to believe that narrative though. It makes it easier for him to threaten his neighbors. I’m sure he REALLY likes it when people like US service members, politicians, and media influencers buy off on that narrative. Stop falling into his trap. 

Oh also, the defensive NATO alliance openly supported and encourage the violent overthrow of the Russian government less than a decade ago, an attempt that Putin believes he has evidence the CIA initiated. 

[goingkinetic]

Just now, FLEA said:

Oh also, the defensive NATO alliance openly supported and encourage the violent overthrow of the Russian government less than a decade ago, an attempt that Putin believes he has evidence the CIA initiated. 

Do you get your news from RT and Qanon?