Lawman Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Keeping borders closed restricts human freedom. Restrictions on the right to migrate are only moral if there is clear evidence of very bad consequences. Even then it could be questionable. What are you defending by keeping an immigrant from entering? Undue pressure on your culture? Wage protection from a more competitive foreigner? If it's pressure on your culture, does that mean you have the right to keep blacks out of your white neighborhood as well? If it's wage protection does that mean you can keep a younger competitor willing to work for less from attending a job interview by any means possible? Or is it just because it's the law and the state has the right to enforce its laws? Where does the state get those rights? From its citizens, correct? The government cannot have any rights that its citizens do not possess. And no citizen has the right to deny immigrants access across a border, or do we? If yes, does that mean I can restrict you from entering my state? After all you're not a citizen of my state, or my city, or my neighborhood. If we as individuals don't have the right to close borders, then how can the state have that right? Or perhaps you think U.S. citizens collectively own the land which makes our nation. And through the democratic process we've transferred part of the ownership to the government. Does that do the trick? Well no. There is plenty of land in the U.S. owned by foreigners and foreign entities that do not get to vote and therefor have no say in that democratic process that transfers ownership to the government. And if the government does own the land, that means they could decide who you can invite over to your next BBQ, or your Superbowl party and that's just absurd. Did you just sit around listening to a lot of John Lennon when you typed this? Really? Do you own your F'ing house? Are those locks on your doors not a restriction of the rights and privileges of passage and occupying your property? Why don't you go ahead and invite the maximum number of people you thing you can reasonably feed, cloth, and shelter with your given budget. Then have 10 more sneak through a window and demand the same treatment. Immigration is the occupation of space and the consumption of resources relative to a given area. The last part is particularly the most important part of this conversation. No different than a Hospital ER has an ability to conduct triage to insure the most effective use of its limited resources a country has the right to restrict its borders. No one would expect a person to take on the burden over an unsustainable demand on their given resource limit but somehow America is supposed to just continuously pass out finite resources to people who commit nothing to the system (ie taxes). That's the problem with illegal immigration. Nobody has a problem with us bringing the family of the guy acting as a translator in Afghanistan to help us out as quid pro quo. We are pisses about an I defended point of entry that is the Mexican border allowing both leaching mirgrants and criminals/threats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Legit question... Are you suggesting getting rid of all borders and having free movement wherever/ whenever? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Cause that's worked so well in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I think Vertigo just gave all of us the right to enter his house and we are entitled to shelter, food, and the use of his property with or without his consent. Damn nice of you, Vertigo!! I hope you don't mind that I'm bringing a Mariachi band with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 If immigration was free, but still managed so that new immigrants are paying their load then your arguments would be invalid. But I guess you're to lazy to think about other ways of doing business. "You MIGHT commit a crime some time in the future" is a shit awful excuse. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!The u.s. is privately owned? If so, by whom? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 If immigration was free, but still managed Which is it? Free or Managed? If it's managed, then it's not totally free. Brought to you by the same grasp of language as those who can't quite understand the definition of "infringed"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The food bank down the road is free... Yet somehow it is also managed. Imagine that! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!The definition of free isn't just limited to money. Fyi. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 If immigration was free, but still managed so that new immigrants are paying their load then your arguments would be invalid. Yeah look at how many immigrants are carrying their own weight. Great idea dude Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 So change the system that incentives them to not pull their load. Quit being lazy and think of alternate ways of doing business. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Now you're talking! Change the system so that illegally entering the country is much worse than "oh you're here illegally? Here's tons of free benefits" I'm confused how what were talking about is being lazy Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The food bank down the road is free... Yet somehow it is also managed. Imagine that! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!The definition of free isn't just limited to money. Fyi. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Free? Are you that limited and myopic in your thinking? Somebody, somewhere is paying for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I don't see anything wrong with building a damn fence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Now you're talking! Change the system so that illegally entering the country is much worse than "oh you're here illegally? Here's tons of free benefits" I'm confused how what were talking about is being lazy Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If the system was set up so that there was no incentive to be here illegally, but rather legally, which route do you think they would take? This isn't rocket science. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!Free? Are you that limited and myopic in your thinking? Somebody, somewhere is paying for it. And if immigrants were given the opportunity to come in and contribute to that burden rather than the current system that makes it more appealing to be here illegally, who do you think would be paying for it? Themselves. Every other reason anyone has mentioned has been a complete "I got mine, fuck anyone else that dreams of obtaining the same." Is there limited resources and opportunities? Yes, and that makes it self correcting, just like a free market. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) If the system was set up so that there was no incentive to be here illegally, but rather legally, which route do you think they would take? This isn't rocket science. You mean if we actually kicked out illegal immigrants and made it a disincentive to be here illegally, it would help? What a concept! That's what I've been trying to say... Umm...false. I'm more than happy for someone to LEGALLY immigrate to this country and live the "American dream." But for someone to come here illegally and be given everything they currently are is a load of BS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited May 17, 2014 by hispeed7721 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 You mean if we actually kicked out illegal immigrants and made it a disincentive to be here illegally, it would help? What a concept! That's what I've been trying to say... Umm...false. I'm more than happy for someone to LEGALLY immigrate to this country and live the "American dream." But for someone to come here illegally and be given everything they currently are is a load of BS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That's not a disincentive, that's an obstacle. So you are in favor of opening the border to all who want to enter. Great! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) That's not a disincentive, that's an obstacle. So you are in favor of opening the border to all who want to enter. Great! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! I understand there may be semantic differences but wouldn't you agree that generally an obstacle IS a disincentive? So let's say they are different...I'm pretty sure if we (the US) unequivocally kicked out every illegal immigrant and didn't waiver from that policy just to garner voters that it would be a pretty big turn off to illegal immigration, regardless of what you call it. Aaaand no...I never said open the border. I said legal immigration. Those are two very different things... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited May 17, 2014 by hispeed7721 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Legal, free immigration to all. Sounds just like what I'm advocating. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Legal immigration (a policy that shockingly currently exists) is not the same as simply opening the borders and saying come one come all Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Open borders, amnesty, long term high immigration (legal & illegal) pick your poison, are not wise national policies. Allowing in more low-skilled workers (and their dependents) will cost much more than they will ever contribute in terms of payroll taxes and depress the wages of the working poor and working class. What Vertigo proposes (ostensibly a free market of labor which really is just a race to the bottom) can not ever be as Mexico or whatever labor exporting country you want to pick will not allow a reciprocal move to open it's economy or society, again the elites of the third world don't care a whit about their own poor and just expect the gringos to let them in, thereby solving their problem of a dissatisfied mass of poor. We are enabling some of the worst governance / inattention by turning a blind eye to this and allowing it to continue. Robert Rector’s Study: Open Borders + Welfare State = Disaster Build the fence(s) - Patrol the border - Arrest & Fine the illegal EMPLOYERS - Deport the illegals when they are arrested Edited May 18, 2014 by Clark Griswold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertschu Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Cause that's worked so well in the EU. If it didn't work in the EU, that is because of they way they implemented it, not because it doesn't work. In North America there is an economic and political union of sovereign states where you can cross sovereign borders with any border control at all. This union even has a common currency, that has been considered by many to be very successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Legal, free immigration to all. Sounds just like what I'm advocating. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Name any system, a swimming pool, a car, an acre of land, an urban area of defined area, etc. that can take an unlimited/uncontrolled increase in population without the resulting chaos harming those that live there. We can experiment with your place. I'm sure I can find a bunch of homeless folks that would love the serenity and compassion of your hospitality. Post your address and we'll get this party started. I'm all for legal immigrants. I've met many that work harder, smarter, and happier than a lot of my fellow citizens. Those from countries that were oppressed with limited economic or political freedom have an exceptional point of view worth listening to. But in the end, I put my the health and security, financial and physical, over the very nice people that might want to come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Name any system, a swimming pool, a car, an acre of land, an urban area of defined area, etc. that can take an unlimited/uncontrolled increase in population without the resulting chaos harming those that live there. We can experiment with your place. I'm sure I can find a bunch of homeless folks that would love the serenity and compassion of your hospitality. Post your address and we'll get this party started. I'm all for legal immigrants. I've met many that work harder, smarter, and happier than a lot of my fellow citizens. Those from countries that were oppressed with limited economic or political freedom have an exceptional point of view worth listening to. But in the end, I put my the health and security, financial and physical, over the very nice people that might want to come here. Thanks for proving what I said earlier- The problem is self correcting. When too many immigrants come the resources and available jobs become very limited and with it the incentive to immigrate. Many would even choose to self deport at that point! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thanks for proving what I said earlier- The problem is self correcting. When too many immigrants come the resources and available jobs become very limited and with it the incentive to immigrate. Many would even choose to self deport at that point! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! So your solution is to allow unlimited migration here which would be "self correcting." What type of self correcting are we talking? I've been to wonderful places like Haiti, Caracas, and Mexico City and I guess you would be happy if we corrected to the economic and political dynamics that occur in those wonderful tourist destinations. They come to the U.S. for a better life. I understand that. I also understand that resources are limited and would really like to use your residence for a demonstration of that principle. I am accumulating quite the list for moving into your house and you have yet to send an address with invitations. You'll take care of their healthcare, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thanks for proving what I said earlier- The problem is self correcting. When too many immigrants come the resources and available jobs become very limited and with it the incentive to immigrate. Many would even choose to self deport at that point! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Self deport... Like locusts leaving a field of crops after they've consumed all the resources... Brilliant! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thanks for proving what I said earlier- The problem is self correcting. When too many immigrants come the resources and available jobs become very limited and with it the incentive to immigrate. Many would even choose to self deport at that point! Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Do you wait till you get a Resolution Advisory before correcting a loss of separation problem when you can see it coming 20 miles out? Do you wait till you get a Pull-Up Pull-Up before correcting a loss of terrain clearance problem if you know you have a CFIT coming? Why do we have to wait for the pain / problem to get so severe that people will just leave a country to get away from it? Why can't we lead the turn and control our destiny? Do you wait till the stove burns your hand and you feel the pain before you remove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Many would even choose to self deport at that point! This statement is one of the most delusional things I've heard in a LONG time. And given the current executive administration, that's something to be proud of. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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