Herks: impressions of MPD

[Guest Grouch]

I guess it depended on the base. When some of us were at Ali AB we had the waiver for Co's to land in the box. We were watched like a hawk by ACs but letting us do that with an AC was certainly better than my first pen D with a baby AC who looked at me on our first flight on the deployment as he flicked down his nvgs and said, "you know, this is my first one of these, at least its Balad."

[Guest LLoyd McPherson]

Originally posted by herkbum:

What makes you an AC is the ability to make decisions. Not only decisions in the airplane, but how to take care of a crew during RON's and on deployments. MPD or CP doesn't make a rat's ass difference if they don't have experience as a CREWMEMBER!

Feel free to gut me if you want but here are an old DCC (HC-130N/P)views on the subject. The flying aspect I WILL NOT ADDRESS, cause I am not a pilot.

The Aircraft Commander is God in that Aircraft, granted they have help, but when it hits the fan in a bad way, it is the AC that will take the hit when it goes wrong and get the praise when it goes well. If someone is on acft trip and you have couple of young CC's and LM and they are someplace enjoying several dozen adult drinks and get picked up by the local Police I would like to think that the AC that banked hours with Officers (AC) that have passed knowledge of this non-flying "emergency" so that it handled. Leadership is not learned overnight and in the hours of mindless BS on the comm between the crew there was equal amount of mentoring being slipped in by the "gray hairs". Decisions should be based on many things that I feel cannot be learned in school, unless it the one of hard knocks. Another way to look at it is this; would you want someone signing of r2 of an engine that had seen done it 2 or 3 times in school but had never done the job themseves. Just a radom thought.

I have been away from the 130 world since 92 but I hate to think that this "Air University" is being lost. To you Herk Crews

[Swizzle]

I'm under the new MPD program, Class #08-02. It's great to read this stuff and know about program weaknesses.

Some of the stuff mentioned they don't teach us. The bashing is good so we know there are training short comings, but ranting about it gets old.

Please give us more specifics; like dip cleared routing, 1801 flt plans, etc; so we can learn.

[HerkDerka]

Swizzle, keep in mind that you're reading information that's almost two years old and the MPD program is no longer new. A good number of the initial kinks in the MPD program have been worked out.

HD

[Swizzle]

Swizzle, keep in mind that you're reading information that's almost two years old and the MPD program is no longer new. A good number of the initial kinks in the MPD program have been worked out.

HD

Yea, doesn't hurt getting as much info as possible. I've noticed quite a few Herk guys making postings, so I thought I'd give it a try. Even on two year old threads :)

Crappy things are still being said around the Rock about the MPD program. Even some sim instructors!

[HerkDerka]

There's always going to be some butt-hurt over the MPD program because it's a change from the way business was done for fifty years. But the program is past it's infancy. Besides the majority of the last traditional co's are already AC's. So the difference probably won't be visible for much longer.

Don't worry about what the MPD program is/isn't teaching you. The schoolhouse will teach you how to fly the herk. All the little lessons on how to be a good crew dog are learned through experience.

HD

[JS]

There's always going to be some butt-hurt over the MPD program because it's a change from the way business was done for fifty years. But the program is past it's infancy. Besides the majority of the last traditional co's are already AC's. So the difference probably won't be visible for much longer.

Don't worry about what the MPD program is/isn't teaching you. The schoolhouse will teach you how to fly the herk. All the little lessons on how to be a good crew dog are learned through experience.

HD

So does anyone know if the MPD program is going away? I have heard a few somewhat strong rumors that the E-models were already in the process of getting rid of it and that the J-model program would follow suit. All rumors thus far, though.

[tac airlifter]

I think the term "savings" is a little deceptive for how this program actually works. The "savings" according to AMC is that we no longer need a schoolhouse dedicated to upgrading these guys, right? But instead we take away our local training lines at the Ops level to have dedicated 'AC upgrade lines.' The net effect is less training going on at the unit, because the unit is shouldering the burden of upgrading these guys in addition to our regular training duties. So where is the savings? We still fly the same number of lines since AMC is not providing more tails, and instead of having a schoolhouse where these guys go we have a local line dedicated to them... at the expense of a local line that would have gone to our proficeincy training. I understand that money is saved, but it is saved by not flying our regular flights. So to paraphrase, AMC is saving money by flying less. There is nothing magic about the training program that inherently makes upgrades cheaper, AMC is just throwing this onto the Ops squadrons and telling us that we'll get even less regular training since we now have to give up local sorties for these guys. This whole program is "do more with less" and it's that simple.

I was an old school copilot and there are things about the MPD program I like. They do three engine stuff and no-flap and we weren't allowed to. That is an improvement. But the truth is there is no reason at all why they should be in the left seat until it's time to be an AC. At my squadron, these guys can barely keep their L seat landing currency because we don't let them fly L seat without an IP anyway.. so whats the point?

[FourFans]

This is a good thread revival. I've been curious. How do state side units do offstation mission evals? Is it just an out and back? I know that here at the 36th out dudes get good training because we have a good trickle of REPATs SAAMs and JAATT going to Korea, Thailand, Kadena, the Philippines etc. Usually we've been able to at least send our OME dudes to Kadena for an overnight trainer or SAAM.

Do the stateside bases have good SAAMs or JAATT that actually challenge the offstation mission planning abilities of these new guys?

[HercDude]

Do the stateside bases have good SAAMs or JAATT that actually challenge the offstation mission planning abilities of these new guys?

Aw man - I good a good chuckle out of that one. In 3 & 1/2 years at Pope I was on a grand total of 3 off-station missions (obviously not including deployments - all of which I deployed via commercial air/rotator). INDOC copilots were waived their off station requirement 3/4 of the time. Every onece in a while they would get on an out & back to the NCO Academy Graduation or took the Wing/CC to Scott or Little Rock. When we had extra jets (basically never) we could send someone to the BAC or to Hurlburt for a JA/ATT. Absoultely none of that is challenging. The iron swaps are somewhat - but they would usually send out a baby AC and mid- or high-time CP on those. I remember more than once sending 2 CPs on an out & back so they could both log off an off-station mission for INDOC.

I was an old school copilot and there are things about the MPD program I like. They do three engine stuff and no-flap and we weren't allowed to. That is an improvement.

They did that way before the MPD program. Then they knocked it off. For a reason

I don't think the MPD makes sense foer the Herc community as long as they keep everyone tac qualified. I think AMC should drop the 100% formation/tac qual thing since they never use it anyway. You can cruicify me for saying this if you want, but why not adopt the C-17 training flow where no one shows up with a tac qual, and if you don't want it, you don't get it? Then MPD makes sense to me. Otherwise I agree that all it does if pawn off the schoolhouse's problems on to the squadrons who have better things to do with their time/people/money.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Swizzle:

The FTU simply doesn't have the training time or resources to teach you things like 1801s and dip clearances. It's the FTU's job to teach you how to fly a Herk, not employ it on international flights, etc. Most students have a hard time learning basic radio procedures, systems knowledge and basic 3-3/vol 3 procedures. If you focus on the foundation and learn those things cold at the FTU, it will set you up for learning the other stuff once you arrive at your unit.

tac airlifter:

The MPD program has been revised a few times. Students no longer fly left-seat tac, however they take a Qual checkride in the left seat. The tac rides are all in the right seat.

There are also two different flavors of MPD copilots. There was the original MPD co's, and most of them will be upgraded in-house at their unit. Some will arrive at LRF and undergo the PCO syllabus at the FTU. Then there's the right-seat MPD program. These characters will likely come back to the FTU and attend the PCO(S) syllabus. Right now this is in small-group tryout, but once it becomes the norm it will become the standard PCO syllabus.

If you're wondering how this helps the original aim of eliminating the ACQ course (old aircraft commander qual), welcome to the club. We're finding out quickly that the end product the FTU will end up having isn't going to be much different than the old way. The differences:

- Instead of attending CIQ for copilots and training exclusively in the right seat, co's will now do the PIQ course in the left seat for the qual phase, and right seat for the tac phase.

- Aircraft Commander students coming from other airframes (crossflow students) will attend PXA/PXB syllabi in the left seat instead of the old PIQ left seat syllabus.

- "Legacy" copilots that went through CIQ will no longer attend ACQ, instead they will attend PRA, which is also the re-qual course (left seat).

- "Legacy MPD" students that did the old new PIQ (left seat only copilot) course (don't get lost yet) will either attend a quick assault trainer syllabus called the Pilot Check Out (PCO) or be totally upgraded in their home squadron.

- "Right Seat" MPD students in the current PIQ courses will have to come back to attend the PCO(S) syllabus in the future, sort of like attending the old ACQ course.

So, in short, we abandoned the right seat training/aircraft commander qual system for a left-seat only/in-house qual, figured out that didn't work well, and went back to a mostly-left-seat training/aircraft commander "check out" course.

Basically, aside from copilots doing their qual checks in the left seat, everything is going back to the way it was, except the names have been changed. And the responsible parties have been promoted to General Officers.

[Swizzle]

Nice summary Hueypilot, that puts things into perspective. It's good to know the community's current trends.

I expect in someday the MPD program will revert. Thus coming full circle - again.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Swizzle

[tac airlifter]

I'm not sure I understand what your post has to do with what I sad. After a long sentence in the dungeon of the sqadron training shop I am well aquainted with the shenanigins of the MPD program. What you may not fully appreciate is that at the Ops squadrons, these guys are not being allowed to fly L seat at all without an IP, even though they are fully qualed to do so. The FPH vs FPQ thing really is not relevant; right now the burden of upgrades falls on us, not the schoolhouse.

Most of us are still totally befuddled by the program. But the bottom line is that we aren't saving money, we are just flying less. So what's the point?

[FourFans]

- Instead of attending CIQ for copilots and training exclusively in the right seat, co's will now do the PIQ course in the left seat for the qual phase, and right seat for the tac phase.

- Aircraft Commander students coming from other airframes (crossflow students) will attend PXA/PXB syllabi in the left seat instead of the old PIQ left seat syllabus.

- "Legacy" copilots that went through CIQ will no longer attend ACQ, instead they will attend PRA, which is also the re-qual course (left seat).

- "Legacy MPD" students that did the old new PIQ (left seat only copilot) course (don't get lost yet) will either attend a quick assault trainer syllabus called the Pilot Check Out (PCO) or be totally upgraded in their home squadron.

- "Right Seat" MPD students in the current PIQ courses will have to come back to attend the PCO(S) syllabus in the future, sort of like attending the old ACQ course.

Even if that WERE true, it would be 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 not 1 + 1 + 2 + 1. No. Wait...

Oh hell! There's one bullet left and I'm going to shoot myself I hear MPD one more time!

[amcflyboy]

MPD!!!! (Sorry I keyed, I just had too! )

[Guest Hueypilot812]

tac airlifter,

I know how you feel, it wasn't too long ago I was in an operational squadron at Dyess. And I loved knowing that the first time a kid ever flew an LPS in the left seat in a REAL airplane was for his or her LAO folder. Not to demean the new co's, but they suck at it, and it's because removing the instrument work they used to do in the old programs from the aircraft doesn't adequately train them. At Dyess, they were flying left seat tac only enough to satisfy their ARMS requirements.

Back to MPD and the stress on the operational units versus the schoolhouse...right now, AMC/USAFE/PACAF squadrons are having to train the majority of the AC upgrades. But supposedly that's going to change and many, if not all, of the "new" MPD students will come back to the FTU for a revamped, renamed ACQ called PCO.

They apparently decided to do this without realizing that we went from two FTU squadrons to one, and we're taking up the PFT slack from Dobbins as well. That would be swell if all we had to do is train PIQ/PXA and PRA students. But now it looks like we're taking on the PCO in full force in the next year or so. My point is there doesn't seem to be any real long-range planning regarding the MPD program and Herks. It's all being handled piecemeal, as we get to it. Not the best way, IMHO.

[Hotel]

So, what is this PCO course going to look like? Same program and length as the current ACQ?

Or is that all yet to be determined.

[amcflyboy]

I'm what you would call the "Legacy" MPD pilot. I attended LRF from 27 July 2005 to 13 Jan 2006 in the Single Ship Airdrop/Airland Syllabus. I was the VERY first person in my unit to complete this program. My unit has not had a TAC rating in 15 years, and just last year starting getting back to it's TAC roots. I went unqualified in the TAC/NVG world, but flew my first in-unit I-Qual Check in the left seat exactly a year ago. My unit is now in a frenzie to get me and a bunch of other crew dogs TAC re-qualified. I'm going to PCO next month in Minneapolis. If anybody wants to know how it goes, I will be surely glad to pass on this information.