Ammo against the shoe clerks!

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

My thinking with this: Why not have a thread that details what's allowed under AFIs or DoD regs so we don't get hosed when working with finance or SVS, and all those folks. Gouge, if you will.

Background... Billeting at Kadena and Ellsworth (sturgis, baby!) have both refused to give me a non-A number while I'm there even though they don't have rooms available for my entire stay (billeting available 10 nights out of 12). Their reasoning is to stay on-base when there's room. Fair enough. But they're wrong.

Andersen lodging saying they want you to stay on base for "most" of your trip there?

According to AFI 34-246, page 20, 2.2.1.1.3, "The member is authorized commercial lodging or a non-A number if adequate lodging is UNAVAILABLE ON-BASE for the ENTIRE TDY period."

20 hours off at Hickam and you want to stay at the outrigger Waikiki?

Also, Page 23, 2.2.6.1: "Per JFTR vol 1, government quarters are considered not available when the TDY is less than 24 hours."

If we pool up our neurons, this thread could be a treasure trove for aircrews in the system. Let's face it, the only way to fight the BS is to know the book better than the shoe clerks do

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Great idea. Just a thought to keep this thread on track...

Every extra dollar you spend comes out of our nation's treasure. Spending two weeks in the most expensive hotel in the world because you know how to BFM the rules is no different than ripping three GBU-12s into a revet with a truck that has already been hit just to satisfy a stupid bring back metric in combat. You have to ask yourself can I really justify spending these resources as a necessary expense to get the job done better and would I spend resources in this way if it was coming out of my own pocket?

Don't get me wrong, you should receive any and all entitlements you are eligible for. That's why they're called entitlements.

BL: you will always get more personal satisfaction out of knowing and applying the regs for the benefit of the overall mission than for personal advantage.

FWIW

[M2]

BL: you will always get more personal satisfaction out of knowing and applying the regs for the benefit of the overall mission than for personal advantage.

Either way, knowing the regs is smart...and a great place to start is here.

Cheers! M2

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Info.....

FWIW

Well said. I'm not standing here saying I'd rather be on base at Kadena vs. off base at the Grand Mir, but point taken

M2,

I know the link, but since the AF probably has an AFI for pissing in blues versus a flight suit, I figured this thread would be a good place to pool the "corporate knowledge" we all have instead of looking through umpteen thousand AFIs and command supps

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Sputnik, they tried telling me at check-in when I went to grab my non-A's. I asked for my sheet, they said they'd give it to me something like 9 days later and they have a room available for me until then. Tried pulling that card when I pulled mine out. Xtndr 1, lodging 0

Backed into a corner, they will back down

[Baseops.Net]

Every extra dollar you spend comes out of our nation's treasure. Spending two weeks in the most expensive hotel in the world because you know how to BFM the rules is no different than ripping three GBU-12s into a revet with a truck that has already been hit

True, however whenever we mention this type of logic, the "bosses" go into their littany of "the money comes from a different pot..."

They are hammering us for parking fees at the airport when we are forced to go TDY, yet have no problem flying around a nearly-empty plane or generating a line to fly one or two VIPS around the world -- and when we mention that we need to be stewards of the taxpayers' money, all we get is the "different pots of money" argument... Ufortunately I think that many units think that as long as they have the right documentation and can pass an audit, they don't really care how the money is spent.

[Techsan]

Great idea for a topic. I've had to use that <24 hrs reg a time or two in the C-21 world.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

True, however whenever we mention this type of logic, the "bosses" go into their littany of "the money comes from a different pot..."

Most people don't get the different pots of money thing until they are a commander and have a budget to deal with. That's another topic.

I agree, you are certainly asked to do all kinds of wasteful mission related things. That is frustrating but not within your control. It also doesn't justify a lack of concern about controlling the things you do have control over.

Like I said, everyone should receive their entitlements, that;e why they're called entitlements.

Big picture, I'm not looking to start an argument. I'm not trying to point fingers. I would hate to see this turn into a "how to BFM the rules" thread only to have some shoe clerk take it out of contex, blow the whistle and create problems. I think you know what kinds of things I'm talking about. 'Nuff said on that.

[HerkDerka]

Entitlements are part of your pay. There's no shame in claiming what you are owed.

However, don't be a douchebag when it comes to vouchers. The other day, I had one of my crew from a TDY come up and complain to me that he didn't get reimbursed for laundry. Laundry? WTFO? He had put four quarters into a washer and four into a dryer and he claimed it. It kills me when I see people do shit like that. Usually these are the same people who draw a new flight suit every month and complain about the sq not having any funds.

BTW, this thread was a great idea Xtndr.

HD

[JS]

In that same billeting AFI, it talks about aircrew rooms and crew integrity - another issue that I seem to have to fight with billeting every time:

2.2.7. Transient Aircrew Lodging. Lodging provides a private room/private bath to transient aircrew

members 0-1 and above (accommodations may include a shared kitchen and/or living area). For

enlisted transient aircrew members, lodging provides a private room and a private or shared bath. Aircrew

members are defined as anyone on the flight crew order. Ensure gender is considered when

assigned lodging to aircrews. Crew integrity will be maintained--all members of the same crew will be

housed together, either all on base or all off base. If a crew is divided into multiple buildings on base,

no more than two stops will be required to pick up all crew members. NOTE: Exceptions may be

made during contingencies.

2.2.7.1. When construction or maintenance in the vicinity of aircrew quarters could interrupt crew

rest, general managers will not assign aircrew members to buildings in the area.

2.2.7.2. Lodging may assign other TDY personnel to transient aircrew accommodations if not

required for aircrews and other on-base lodging is not available. When assigning other TDY personnel

to aircrew accommodations, advise them of the varied aircrew members sleeping hours,

and ask them to refrain from making any noise or disturbance that could interrupt crew rest.

2.2.7.3. Lodging will maintain aircrew integrity by housing the entire aircrew either on base or off

base. If housed on base, lodging will house them as close together as possible. If lodged off base,

lodging will house the aircrew in one commercial establishment.

2.2.7.4. The installation commander or the aircraft commander may waive aircrew lodging

requirements on a temporary basis for reasons of military necessity.

2.2.7.5. Transient aircrews may use AF Form 2282, Statement of Adverse Affect--Use of Government

Facilities, at Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps installations when available temporary

lodging does not meet Air Force standards for aircrews. When adequate government

lodging is available, but does not meet special mission support requirements or crew integrity

requirements, or the host installation commander has determined that the requirements cannot be

24 AFI34-246 17 MAY 2001

supported, the members may obtain commercial accommodations at their own expense. In these

cases, the general manager will not issue NA numbers. The TDY member is responsible for filing

the AF Form 2282 at their permanent duty base.

[HerkDerka]

"The installation commander or the aircraft commander may waive aircrew lodging requirements on a temporary basis for reasons of military necessity."

There's your gotcha.

HD

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Thanks for the kind words.

Rainman, I understand where you're coming from. But along the idea of entitlements, if the billeting AFI says this is what I'm entitled to, than that's what I'll take. But I'm not going to go out of my way to game the system to get what I want versus playing their own game. I have too few brain cells as it is (god bless you, McClellands and Mr J. Daniels) to waste trying to outsmart uncle sugar. I see where you're coming from though.

My idea for this thread though was to basically pull every shoe clerk AFI issue into one thread. Ie, some dude at the deid says you have to salute in your PT gear, well, look in this thread and someone will post that in AFI 36-2903 Hell supplement, page **, para **.**.**, saluting in PT gear is not required. That was intent

HD, point taken, but imagine SVS calling up the base CC at 2 in the morning because a crew wants to stay off base and is legally entitled to do so. My guess is it's more for contingency ops versus 9-5 business

[ClearedHot]

I've used the AFI to my benefit and they serve to provide some basic level of support when folks are on the road.

However, my opinion changed after an exchange tour and spending time down range.

The other services, right or wrong, view us as pu$$ies because we actually take the time to argue about billeting. They will just grab thier sleeping bag and go find a place to stretch out.

There is a huge cultural gap that I saw manifest itself downrange on many occasions. If it were up to the Army, we would work their details for 10 hours, sleep 50 to a tent for two hours, then provide 12 hours of continuous CAS. On our side, I actually had an EWO try to declare crew rest for a combat mission because the power kept going off and the AC was out in his tent. In his defense it was 100+ degrees outside and we were trying to sleep during the day. My answer, this is COMBAT and the Bros down range don't have AC and they are COUNTING on us period dot. Is there a difference when it is a support mission dropping off a 50th load of shit paper, of course, but a no shit CAS, Armed Recce, Interdiction mission...YGBSM.

If you are objective, it is easy to see both points of view. My uninformed opinion, be wise and use the AFI to your benefit only when it really counts.

[Guest Sparky]

I've used the AFI to my benefit and they serve to provide some basic level of support when folks are on the road.

However, my opinion changed after an exchange tour and spending time down range.

The other services, right or wrong, view us as pu$$ies because we actually take the time to argue about billeting. They will just grab thier sleeping bag and go find a place to stretch out.

There is a huge cultural gap that I saw manifest itself downrange on many occasions. If it were up to the Army, we would work their details for 10 hours, sleep 50 to a tent for two hours, then provide 12 hours of continuous CAS. On our side, I actually had an EWO try to declare crew rest for a combat mission because the power kept going off and the AC was out in his tent. In his defense it was 100+ degrees outside and we were trying to sleep during the day. My answer, this is COMBAT and the Bros down range don't have AC and they are COUNTING on us period dot. Is there a difference when it is a support mission dropping off a 50th load of shit paper, of course, but a no shit CAS, Armed Recce, Interdiction mission...YGBSM.

If you are objective, it is easy to see both points of view. My uninformed opinion, be wise and use the AFI to your benefit only when it really counts.

Or if it is going to make you look like pu$$ies in front of our sister services. I was down range in the '90's (Bosnia), living in a wooden box with 7 other dudes...no one ever complained (unless someone pulled back our sheet (wall) during our "personal" time. lol. War/Combat/Contingency Ops, I think is a totally separate issue in regards to what we were discussing earlier. Great point though ClearedHot

[Guest Sparky]

I remember being deployed to RAF Fairford during Allied Force ('99), flying combat missions one day...doing the pub crawl the next in London. We were billeted in normal O' quarters and hearing dudes complain about the cable tv going out really pissed me off. Sometimes we lose the big picture....

[Guest momann]

I remember being deployed to RAF Fairford during Allied Force ('99), flying combat missions one day...doing the pub crawl the next in London. We were billeted in normal O' quarters and hearing dudes complain about the cable tv going out really pissed me off. Sometimes we lose the big picture....

Tell it as it is, Sparky.

I think this stuff is all about perspective, but info gathered form positive contribution to this thread could be relevant when indeed it counts.

So proceed. Don’t let this little bump deter the focus of this thread.

[HerkDerka]

HD, point taken, but imagine SVS calling up the base CC at 2 in the morning because a crew wants to stay off base and is legally entitled to do so. My guess is it's more for contingency ops versus 9-5 business

You read that wrong. I said "There's the gotcha" pointing out that the wing king has the authority to keep you on base. The lesson being, if billeting says the base commander will not let you off base, it's best to not start a tirade. "No, you're wrong. I read on Baseops.net that......"

Not to mention the requirements for him to make the decision are highly up to interpretation...."times of military necessity."

HD

[Guest Sparky]

Just because the other services shit on their people doesn't make us pussies, it makes them jealous. We're pussies for a host of other reasons, though.

One of those reasons might just be the call sign we are given?? Beaver:)

Edited August 2, 2007 by Sparky

[Guest Rainman A-10]

If it were up to the Army, we would work their details for 10 hours, sleep 50 to a tent for two hours, then provide 12 hours of continuous CAS.

Welcome to Bagram (winter/spring '02). Wouldn't have had it any other way.

On our side, I actually had an EWO try to declare crew rest for a combat mission because the power kept going off and the AC was out in his tent. In his defense it was 100+ degrees outside and we were trying to sleep during the day.

You had AC? Nice.That was the good thing about Bagram..."Fine, get plenty of rest because you'll be on shit burning detail for the next five days. Sweet dreams, dumbass."

Just because the other services shit on their people doesn't make us pussies, it makes them jealous.

Just tell them you didn't join the Air Force because the Army/Navy/Marines turned you down.

[Guest Johann]

We're pussies for a host of other reasons, though.

LOL!

+1,000

[MD]

Welcome to Bagram (winter/spring '02). Wouldn't have had it any other way.

I remember back then there being only half a side of runway being open, left or right of center changing by week or so; and having to make the center turnoff when landing on 3, lest you roll out into the abyss at night and have to back taxi, or the night circling approach to 21 in the rain under NVGs cuz of the winds and the crappy runway lighting from that direction......

Sped was right at home there, though, at that time.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I remember back then...

You do? I was talking 8 months before DM showed up.

[MD]

You do? I was talking 8 months before DM showed up.

yeah, those parts that I saw. Was the real wild west before that from what I heard. Now, it seems to have become the new Langley of Afghan, complete with the BS. The 'Deid east, I suppose.

[Riddller]

The other services, right or wrong, view us as pu$$ies because we actually take the time to argue about billeting. They will just grab thier sleeping bag and go find a place to stretch out.

Not true. On Marine Herks we had the JFTR copied and memorized to get what we were entitled to. There was more than one occassion we pulled out the "crew integrity" line. Granted, in a war situation, everything becomes "suck it up", but if we weren't flying beans, bullets, band-aids, or gas in the sand box (which I never got the opportunity to do BTW), then we made sure we got our entitlements.

[HerkDerka]

Was the real wild west, now it seems to have become the new Langley of Afghan, complete with the BS.

So true.

It's weird how much that place has changed over four years. It was a complete culture shock landing on the new runway for the first time.

HD