Blue Angels Crash into neighborhood in SC

[Guest Bender]

Agree with 21 all...

Still find it hard to buy that the guy would have GLOC himself...

Executing the rejoin was important, but....

How far would a pilot in that position push the tunnel?

I can see letting the "I'm the best of the best, this needs to happen, this is the finale, this is..." letting it get too far, but it's not like he was a inexperienced fighter pilot.

I wonder what the report will say, GLOC "speculative-wise" seems right out, but...who knows, certainly not me.

BENDY

[usaf36031]

How quickly can GLOC manifest itself?

In a snap turn like the one I saw on that video is it possible for it to occur instantly, without the tunnel warning? Especially without a suit?

Edited April 23, 2007 by usaf36031

[Eeyore]

It is only human nature to want to find the cause of mishap/accident. As professional aviators we want to become better pilots. Speculation on cause is not helpful to anyone. Let us let the safety board convene and hopefully find cause of mishap. In the AF this process takes 30 days and then the briefing is brief up the change of command and finally published. Additionally, then an AIB is held to determine who's responsible and can asset blame and punishment. You are allowed a lawyer at AIB but not at Safety board. I have lived through a Class A and it is no fun having everyone try and guess what happened. Lastly, :beer: for a fallen aviator.

[Guest twinkle toes]

I am sorry, but most of you sound like a bunch of babies. A pilot died! Give some respect and stop b*tching to each other about who's balls are the biggest. Whether he had a G-loc, or if there was an engine problem, he still gave his life for his love of being a fighter pilot. I can only dream one day to have that much honor! If he g-locked, he is part of an elite group that takes flying to the edge. If he flew it into the ground so no civilians died . either way, he is still a hero!

[busdriver]

Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.

EDIT: I didn't come up with this, I don't know who said it, but I'd read it before. It's cheesy but appropriate when people start arm chair quarterbacking, which is probably what's going to start up soon.

Edited April 23, 2007 by busdriver

[Guest Whiz201]

I've been a lurker here for a while and never posted. Never really want to poke my nose into a mature engagement but Kojack was a bro.

I'm a Hornet driver with close to 3K in the jet. I also got a chance to fly with the Blues in the slot when my buddy was the opso back in 2002.

I hate to speculate either but the GLOC suggestion seems improbable. For 40 minutes before the crash Kojack was performing high G manuvers as well as rejoins with #5. The rejoins are pretty brutal but bearable, especially after you've been doing them for 40 min.

Each guy has "clear airspace" that they own as they do the rejoin. If Kojack owned the lowest airspace he's down at a couple hundred feet max. Something happens at that point either engine or FCS related and you only have a couple seconds to react and each one of these guys knows exactly what/who they're flying over.

Unwritten rule among the Blues and airshow demo pilots in the Navy (and I'm sure in the AF/MC as well) -

Enjoy your flight because if something goes wrong it'll be your last because you stay with the jet to save lives if you have to. We all know what has happened overseas and we've all seen jets tumble into an airshow crowd.

We'll see what the MIR says but until then I think my man did it right.

Cheers Kojack

[HuggyU2]

Those rejoins are done at over 7G's. And it's a pretty fast onset. Whiz, if he's got some extra smash, say 475KIAS, could the Hornet pull into 8 G's?

As for the G-suit discussion, everytime we go through TARF refresher, they point out the the G-suit will give you about 1G of extra protection. However, dehydration can quickly rob you of that extra G, and as it gets worse, rob you of 3+ G's. Most of my high-G fighter buds say the G-suit is really good at giving you endurance, e.g. it will help you to continually pull G's over the course of 2 sorties in a day. They also say that they continually drink water between sorties/engagements to keep their tolerance up. I'm afraid that no matter what the investigation comes up with, we'll see the "experts" scream that the Blues need G-suits. But the Blues pilots say that the constant inflating/deflating of the G-suit would complicate the finesse inputs required to do what they do.

Also, remember that the Blues have a spring on their control stick that is pulling the nose down with lots of weight (40 lbs, if I remember right). That would be tough to hold for 40+ minutes. When you see the cockpit video shots, you'll often see their right hand come into view and they'll shake it out and give it a few seconds of rest time.

Edited April 24, 2007 by Huggyu2

[Guest 35AoA]

Speculation, and a quarter of the hours as Whiz in the Hornet ...

From the home video that was shown on CNN, it looks like G-Loc to me. It looks like he squats the jet just after the formation passes as he's trying to join-up, and then starts to go down. There doesn't appear to be any attempts to level the jet as he stays in his right hand turn. At least from the video it doesn't look like he had engine problems. FCS problems are possible. All just speculation … It should be answered in the investigation … but a tree or powerline did not cause the crash and that picture of him nose down with no smoke coming out like the other 5 Blues just prior to the incident does not indicate anything mechanically wrong with his jet - it's a smoke generator – he either forgot to turn it on (doubtful) or it was broke (most likely) – and has nothing to do with the engines.

Huggy – the hornet is g-limited to 7.5G's (not AOA limited though) but ham-fisting it you can pull through the G limiter. I've seen 8.1. You can override the G-limiter for 33% more G available, but it's never, if ever, used. The hornet bleeds speed (and G's) quickly at altitude but down low and slick, it will easily sustain airspeed & 7.5G's.

whatever caused it, it sucks ... I've only heard good things about Kojack

S/F

Edited April 25, 2007 by 35AoA

[Guest Whiz201]

35AoA (new or old PROM?) and Hug have some good points. The GLOC may seem improbable but certainly not impossible.

And the G suit for these guys is a no go based on the exact reason you listed.

After knocking out a .7 hr 1v1 and coming into the break around 500kts (+/- 50ish) and snapping on the G I've overstressed the jet a couple of times and been on the edge of gray out. Even after a quick flight full of high G manuvering you can still end up seeing Elvis. Hell, as a RAG IP flying the T-34C on low safe hops I've seen gray at 4 (no suit obviously in the Weener).

The Blues rendevous consists of pointing straight at who you're joining, with alot of speed on and squatting the jet at the last second to stop in position. It's extremely impressive. It also hurts. Would really suck if that's what happened.

I haven't heard through the "network" that anything was said on the radio; you would think if there were engine/FCS problems that there would've been a shout out of some sort.

Again, all bar talk as we raise a glass.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

And for giggles, if you're going to throw your expert opinion out, why not tell us your credentials, too. That way, I can scroll past the Cadet speculating about how the lack of a g-suit was a causal factor.

I have an idea...why don't you go ahead and get us started, that way we can do the same scroll act on your posts if required.

Sorry for the sharpness, but everytime an accident occurs, all the "experts" on here feel obligated to give their opinion of what caused the crash.

No you're not. You're happy to stomp on the cadets. Your comments are particularly interesting based on some of the other posts you've made recently...

Do you visit this site to offer your knowledge to others, or to beat your chest...

You need to learn something about this place right now, there is a wide range of experience and maturity around here. If you are too tough and your time is too valuable to be wasted reading stuff by less experienced people maybe you should shove off.

FWIW, I would agree that there are always lots of cheesy, uninformed and overly "must've been something other than pilot error" sympathetic posts after a wreck. Happens around here every single time. I think it is stupid but I ignore it now.

Pilots have speculated about why someone crashed since the very first time it happened and there was more than one pilot in the same place. Civilians and non-pilots also like to talk about plane crashes. Most of what people say is stupid and/or wrong...even if they are highly experienced. No tough talk is ever going to stop that, but feel free to try.

BL...take it, leave it or ignore it.

[Bishop]

I personally see nothing wrong with people speculating what the cause of the crash is, I haven't read one post on here yet that said to start off "In my expert opinion" Everyones viewpoint is respected, and while the right reason is not always established, we all learn something, Till reading this thread I had extremely limited knowledge of what g-loc was, now im not expert but I know more about it now. I feel the people put their 2 cents in because a comrade of theirs has been lost and the aviation community as a whole hurts for it, perhaps speculation is another way to raise awareness of things ot watch out for... Either way.. Someones life has been lost... I found this picture very moving, figured I would post it here, hopefully no one will object

[Guest ATFS_Crash]

Crash Investigation of a Mock Dogfight & other videos.

This is an investigation of an old crash during a practice dogfight. Exclusive, as far as I know this is the first time this video has been readily available to the general public.

I think this crash was a result of GLOC. If you look at the primitive old fashion computer graphics of the simulation of the crash, you will see that there are three Starburst in the path of the aircraft. I think the Starbursts are bookmarks that represent stick/control inputs, I think the first Starburst is when the pilot started a tight turn and started to pull G’s. I think the second Starburst is when there was no more stick/control inputs, so it's likely when the pilot lost consciousness. The third Starburst I think represents when the pilot started to regain conscious and apply stick/control inputs. Though apparently the pilot started to regain consciousness before the crash, he evidently wasn't conscious enough to properly controlled aircraft.

After a person GLOC’s the pilot stops flying the aircraft, so the aircraft has a tendency to go into a 1G roll, sometimes a spin.

So what happens in a tight turn, is the pilot will put in inputs that make the plane turn and pull Gs, if a pilot loses consciousness the controls usually go neutral, which usually allows the aircraft ease off on the G, however since the aircraft is not controlled, fighters have a tendency to roll and dive if they are not controlled.

The computers simulation in the video was made from data gathered from data recorders, and possibly air and ground tracking.

On April 21 2007 one of the Blue Angels crashed (Kevin 'Kojak' Davis). I don't mean to interfere with the investigation, I have respect and reasonable faith in the investigation. With all due respect, I would like to speculate, that the loss was possibly due to GLOC.

By no means am I am positive that that is what happened with the Blue Angels, however I can't help but notice some glaring similarities. There are some things that could look very similar though. I'm sure that the investigators are aware and educated. They also have the advantage of having the data to study.

I suspect the Blue Angels have seen this video, I think it is (or was) in the curriculum for all fighter pilots in the US military, as part of safety awareness training.

GLOC = Gravity induced Loss of Consciousness

GLOC Gravity induced Loss Of Consciousness Part 1 of 2

GLOC Gravity induced Loss Of Consciousness Part 2 of 2

GLOC in flight. (2 examples) Warning: Explicit Language

GLOC Centrifuge Training

I personally see nothing wrong with people speculating what the cause of the crash is, I haven't read one post on here yet that said to start off "In my expert opinion" Everyones viewpoint is respected, and while the right reason is not always established, we all learn something, Till reading this thread I had extremely limited knowledge of what g-loc was, now im not expert but I know more about it now. I feel the people put their 2 cents in because a comrade of theirs has been lost and the aviation community as a whole hurts for it, perhaps speculation is another way to raise awareness of things ot watch out for... Either way.. Someones life has been lost...

I concur, what other better way to honor the dead than to learn from their mishap to save others? If you died, wouldn't you want the information to help your comrades? If life gives you lemons, try to make lemonade.

Edited August 1, 2007 by ATFS_Crash

[Guest Kawen]

Latest update...

BEAUFORT -- More than three months after thousands of people saw a Blue Angels jet fall from the sky and into a residential area, military officials still haven't released answers about the cause of the crash that killed the pilot and damaged many homes.

Military officials said the crash investigation is complete, but delays in the approval process have continually pushed back the date they plan to release the report.

Lt. Cmdr. Kevin Davis died April 21 after crashing into a wooded area near the intersection of Shanklin and Pine Grove roads during a maneuver the Blue Angels performed at the Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort air show.

The military conducted three investigations into the Navy pilot's crash, as is done with most major military plane crashes, but only one will be released to the public. The others will remain for military use only, according to Lt. Cmdr. Garrett Kasper, Blue Angels spokesman.

A redacted copy of the Judge Advocate General Manual investigation will be made available to the public once commanders review and approve it. Such an investigation is conducted by lawyers and officers appointed by the Navy to determine the cause of the incident, suggest whether any charges under the Uniform Code of Military Justice should be filed and make recommendations.

The report reached its final stop for approval at the Chief of Naval Air Training in Corpus Christi, Texas, in early June, according to Nancy Montgomery, paralegal specialist in charge of fielding Freedom of Information Act requests.

The Beaufort Gazette has requested a copy of the investigating officer's report once it is released. Originally, the release date was estimated to be before July 31.

Montgomery said last week that the report is being reviewed and redacted for public release, and after that, it will be sent for final printing and undergo another round of review before release. She said she expects this to be no later than Sept. 1.

The Blue Angels have released causes of crashes in the past before the formal investigation approval process was complete, but Kasper has said in this case, the demonstration squadron won't comment before the report is released publicly.

[Flare]

Does the Navy also do a SIB? Can this report be accessed through an AF safety office?

[JarheadBoom]

Does the Navy also do a SIB? Can this report be accessed through an AF safety office?

IIRC, the Navy/Marine Corps equivalent of the AF SIB is called an "AMB" - Aircraft Mishap Board. Privileged, FOUO, all that good stuff.

I have no clue whether an AF Safety Office can look at USN/USMC AMB results; you'd have to ask 'em.

Edited August 7, 2007 by JarheadBoom

[ClearedHot]

Navy again delays Blue Angels crash report

By Zachary M. Peterson - Staff writer

Posted : Friday Sep 7, 2007 12:52:44 EDT

The Navy’s investigation into April’s crash of a Blue Angels F/A-18C Hornet that killed one pilot was completed in June, but the Chief of Naval Air Training in Corpus Christi, Texas, has now twice delayed the public release of the mishap inquiry.

Lt. Cmdr. Kevin Davis, 32, of Pittsfield, Mass, was killed April 21 when his jet crashed into a wooded residential area near Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, S.C. He crashed as he attempted to reform in formation with his five squadron-mates at the end of an air show.

Witnesses said metal and plastic wreckage — some of it on fire — hit homes in the neighborhood about 35 miles northwest of Hilton Head. William Winn, the county's emergency management director, said at the time that several homes were damaged. Eight people on the ground suffered injuries that were not life-threatening.

The Navy originally said the public release of the Judge Advocate General Manual investigation report would be in August. However, in August, the Navy said the report would be out by Sept. 1.

Now, Lt. Sean Robertson, a spokesman for the Chief of Naval Air Training, says there is no “fixed date” for the release of the report.

“We want to be right as opposed to quick,” he said.

The 709-page report, including all enclosures, has to be hand-redacted, proofed and sent to the printer, according to Robertson.

[Guest regularjoe]

Does it mean something that the Navy continues to delay the release of the reason for the crash, or is it just political?

I am not trying to be harsh or disrespectful to the pilot so please don't take it that way, however, I am interested to know what the cause was and perhaps apply those lessons to my own flying.

[Guest PilotKD]

My guess is that they'll wait until AFTER the 10th of November (their home coming in NAS Pensacola).

[Whitman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22651166/

Pilot error cited in 2007 Blue Angel crash

'Real aggressive turn' appeared to cause disorientation

Jan. 14, 2008

PENSACOLA, Fla. - A Navy Blue Angels pilot killed in a crash in a residential area last year apparently had become disoriented after failing to properly tense his abdominal muscles to counter the gravitational forces of a high-speed turn, The Associated Press has learned.

A report obtained by The Associated Press blamed the April crash on an error by Lt. Cmdr. Kevin Davis, who died when his F/A 18 Hornet went down near a Marine Corps station in Beaufort, S.C. Davis was in his first season flying in formation with the Navy's elite aerial demonstration team.

"In his final turn to attempt to rendezvous with the other Blues, he put a very fast, high-G turn on the aircraft. A real aggressive turn," Capt. Jack Hanzlik, a Navy spokesman and former aviator, told the AP on Monday.

Davis' parents were watching the team perform.

An investigator reviewing flight data found that as the turn subjected Davis to six times the force of gravity, a temporary decrease in blood flow to his brain likely caused him to experience tunnel vision and become disoriented, the report found.

However, Davis worked to regain control of the plane, "and in the last few seconds he may have been aware of his low altitude and was attempting to save the aircraft," said the report by Marine Lt. Col. Javier J. Ball.

The AP obtained the report as the result of Freedom of Information Act request.

"Kevin had performed these maneuvers in training and in the fleet. He had done them in similar situations and he had a history of performing them well without any problems," Hanzlik said

The Pensacola-based Blue Angels fly without the G-suits that most fighter pilots wear to avoid blacking out during such maneuvers. The suits inflate and deflate air bladders around the lower body to force blood to the brain and heart.

However, the air bladders can cause a pilot to bump the control stick, so the Blue Angels instead learn to manage the forces by tensing their abdominal muscles.

The crash at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort was the Blue Angels' first since 1999 and the 26th fatality in the team's 60-year history.

Because of the crash, the Navy has increased its exercise requirements for Blue Angels pilots with an additional focus on abdominal muscles. The team has also stepped up its requirements for centrifuge training tailored for Blue Angels pilots.

Eight people on the ground were injured and some homes were damaged when the plane crashed in a residential area about 35 miles northwest of Hilton Head Island, S.C.

The pilot's family said through the Navy that they did not want to comment on the report.