ClearedHot

The F-4 also had two afterburners...how'd it do at BFM?

My argument is for some innovative thought from our leadership (perhaps a bit much to ask). I don't see the current construct as affordable or effective. Again if I was king for a day I would use Scorpion (or equivalent), for the second half of UPT. Anyone going B/F would fly get 100 hours (or more at $5,000 per hour), to build airmanship and learn how to fly a more advanced aircraft. I would give the T-100 to the IFF folks and expand the program (at $20,000 per hour), to make steely eyed killers ready to fly advanced from and BFM in their 5th gen aircraft (at $50,000+ per flying hour). I am not on the Scorpion payroll, but I have seen it up close and personal. The performance, reliability and economics make sense (especially for a country $20 Trillion in debt and facing an endless war). I honestly think if you change the UPT construct you could train more pilots, with more hours and airmanship, for less money.

100% disagree. And no I don't work for Textron, but I can tell you first hand, the jet is farther along and has more capability than any of the other OAX applicants.

So lets stay with the same broken model that can't surge to the needs of a breaking force? The OAX experiment was an effort to help shape the purchase of 300 aircraft for Light -Attack...Congress is doing it at their own direction since the Air Force can't even seem to properly fuck a football. I would not be surprised to see that 300 morph into a mixed mission acquisition that provides light attack and a manned ISR replacement. EVERYONE on here is screaming for more flight time...buy a couple hundred of these for phase III UPT or light attack or manned ISR or fucking companion trainers. Fly the SHIT out of them at $5k per hour and build a base of pilots with flight time and air sense. So basic CAS and BFM (yes the new version of the Scorpion can do 7G BFM), put a 5th Gen OFP and build muscle memory...break the paradigm that is helping put the AF in this corner of the envelope.

Amen!

Prepare to read more articles like this. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/11/25/us-troops-killed-in-plane-crashes-skyrockets-in-2017.html?ESRC=todayinmil.sm

For a jet that costs $30M plus each...

Since when has the AF cared about later?

A colleague who is F22 pilot for the Virginia ANG had honor of flying a Phantom at Eglin. He flew the aircraft we had at the reunion. Here is the F-22 pilot’s thoughts on flying the F-4: I flew your jet a couple days ago (see attached). I had a little trouble getting the engines started, so I climbed out and shoveled some more coal in the back; after that she fired right up. Ground ops were uneventful, although I couldn’t figure out why the cockpit smelled like body odor, Jack Daniels and cigars…and that was BEFORE I got in it! By the way, what’s with the no slip crap on top of the intakes, it’s like you have permanent icing conditions due to that spray on rhino truck bed liner on top of the aircraft. It’s no wonder you needed so much coal (I mean thrust) to get airborne. Take off scared the sh*t out of me. I lit the burners at brick one and 2 miles and 45 minutes later we were ready to rotate. After barely clearing the tree tops, the gear came up and I climbed away at a VERY impressive 2 degrees nose high. In case you don’t remember, “Trim” is your friend in the F-4 (pretty sure it’s also a good friend on the ground too). Once I got her up to speed and a moderate altitude, we were ready for the G-Ex. Two G-turn’s later and I’m sinking like a rock…the F-4’s energy seems to bleed like Holyfield’s ear in the Tyson fight! After the G-Ex it was time to do a little Advanced Handling Characteristics (AHC) and by “advanced handling” I mean the same crap the Wright Brothers were doing back in 1903…just trying to keep it airborne. The jet flies much like my old man’s station wagon used to drive…You turn the wheel (push the stick) a few inches and nothing happens, then all of a sudden the steering kicks in, inertia takes over, and all HELL breaks loose! You’re pretty much along for the ride at that point and only gravity has a real say in your lift vector placement. “Checking 6” was really quite easy…. because you CAN’T! Scratch that off the list of “Sh*t I need to do to keep myself alive in combat today”. Breathing, however, was surprisingly easy in the F-4 when compared to that of the F-22 (thank you Lockheed)…LOX works, who knew! I think I may have burned my legs a bit from the steam pouring out from behind the gauges. Where are my 6 mini-flat screen TV’s, I’m lost without my HD jet displays (editors note: actually, I’m an analog guy stuck in a digital world too…I really do like the “steam driven” gauges). After the AHC, I decided to take her up high and do a supersonic MACH run, and by “high” I mean “where never lark nor even eagle flew”; but not much higher, a foot or two maybe. I mean, we weren’t up there high-fiving Jesus like we do in the Raptor, but it was respectable. It only took me the width of the Gulf of Mexico to get the thing turned around while above the Mach. After the Mach run we dropped to the deck and did 600 kts at 500’; a ratllin’ and shakin’ we will go…. I though all the rivets were going to pop out. Reference previous station wagon analogy! Very quickly we were out of gas and headed home. As I brought the jet up initial, I couldn’t help but think that the boys who took this thing into combat had to have some pretty big brass you know whats! My first F-4 landing was a little rough; sub-standard really by Air Force measure… but apparently “best seen to date” according to the Navy guys. Did you know that there’s no such thing as an aerobrake in the F-4? As soon as the main gear touches down, the nose comes slamming down to the runway with all the force of a meteor hitting the earth….I guess the F-4 aerobrake technique is to dissipate energy via denting the runway. Despite an apparently “decent” landing, stopping was a whole different problem. I reached down and pulled the handle to deploy the drogue chute…at which point a large solid mass of canvas, 550 cord, metal weights and cables fell out and began bouncing down the runway; chasing me like a lost puppy and FOD’ing out the whole runway. Perfect. I mashed down on the breaks and I’m pretty sure at this point the jet just started laughing at me. Why didn’t you warn me that I needed a shuttle landing strip to get this damn thing stopped? All kidding aside, VERY COOL jet! Must have been a kick to fly back when you were in Vietnam! Just kidding!

It is but the powers that be have realized it is a losing battle and they plan to "Grow" out of the hole (sts). In other words, the senior decision makers care to make the institutional changes required to fix the retention problem. They are giving lip service, but have yet to make REAL change. Also, they demand signal from out joint partners is only getting louder and DoD proper is still directing us to answer at all costs, including breaking the force. Something has to give which is why these out of box hair brained schemes are popping up. AETC tried to surge to 1400 UPT students a year, it was unsustainable (part of my argument on the T-38 replacement). As we all know these decisions will be paid for in blood, watch the Class A rate and I am just holding my breath waiting for the next mistake in combat. I've been saying it for a long time, but I really think we are close to a stop loss, it may be the only thing that stops the system from imploding.

The T-38 is TIRED, that is a given, it must be replaced NOW. That being said, I don't think a 9G $30 MILLION trainer is the answer. Having been forced to look at the "numbers" as a OSD staff weenie, I am not convinced a pseudo F-16 will hold up and bear the fruit you want. Most current fighters are programmed to fly 250 hours a year at horrible FH costs (F-16 = $22,000 an hour, F-15 +$41,000 and hour, F-22 = $68,000 an hour), and I truly wonder if this aircraft can sustain 500-600 hours a year. I fully understand that folks going to fighters particularly 5th gen aircraft need to develop the ability to maneuver dynamically under high G, but I wonder is that a function of UPT or IFF? Most of the bomber folks going through UPT track through T-38's, why in the world do they need a 9G trainer other than the cool factor? If I were as you suggest king for a day, I would likely have several aircraft in the mix including a jet like Scorpion that has a 7G envelope and has business jet like efficiency AND reliability. I would beef up IFF and make it longer while equipping them with a jet like the T-50 in a program the truly develops fight pilots, not a top off of UPT skills for everyone. One of the constant bitches I hear on here is guys need time in the seat. You will not surge a jet like the T-50 and we certainly can't afford 1,000 of them to make the numbers good. If we bought something like Scorpion at a cost of less than $20 million that can EASILY fly 1,000+ hours a year at less than $10,000 a flight hour you now have the ability to build airmanship and experience. The other thing about a jet like Scorpion, you can easily put a radar in it and software that mimics what is found in our 5th gen jets. The young SNAPs can now go fly for hours practicing the muscle memory required to employ today's high end capabilities. Think about it, on a standard 5th gen training sortie how often are dudes flying high aspect BFM? And how often are they driving around in the bozosphere at 3-4 G practicing long range employment or air to ground weapons employment. Again, I am NOT saying we don;t need a high-end 9G capable trainer for our fighter folks, I just don't think we need that as part of the UPT program. We need a paradigm shift that allows us to train the best aviators in the world within the economic constraints we are dealing with.

The objective requirements for the TX program basically make it a new F-16...yet another blunder. 50 years later I would think we could make a reasonable T-38 replacement in minimal time that would have the economy and dependability of a business jet while still having the performance required to teach formation and BFM. Yet again, this mess is self-induced.

Ironically, the Squadron Commander of that Growler unit is....drum roll Commander Brendan "Tess" Stickles.

Perhaps just me but not very earth shattering. It was only 10-15 years ago that we went to the 11F or 11B only folks in the T-38 model. The vast majority of my T-38 IPs were from heavies.

Because there is an INCREDIBLE demand signal in the middle of a war and the seniors have tried MULTIPLE times to reduce RPA ops only to be told to pound sand. The entire system is in crisis and they did it to themselves.

This should help pilot retention....good call.

Copy cat...

Yup, also mainly a civilian plane so a bit harder to turn of the parts train because of a political issue. The U-28 community has some of the most dedicated Americans I've ever met, but I think most of them would acknowledge they need a better plane to accomplish their mission (faster, can lift more, RANGE). Interestingly, Scorpion would be an incredible fit as a replacement.

Not smart...why buy a foreign built airplane when there are far better options. I sure hope we never fall out of favor with Brazil and they turn of the supply train.

0.0

Also a lot of RUMINT about the Navy wanting out of the F-35 business...trying to give them all to the USMC and buy a big lot (148), of Super Hornets. I guess a long-term play to skip to 6th Gen.

All valid points and I won't even pretend to defend his comments. I would not have threatened no-notice check rides, not the place on a DOV guy. On the other hand if I was the SQ/CC and my IPs were sitting in a circle talking about the airlines at work I would justifiably not be happy. We all bitch about the bullshit queep that keeps us from flying and focusing on the mission, shouldn't that apply both ways? "Good Dude" in this context...really means good leader. I know many people on here know who he is, but I will still attempt to preserve his anonymity. Let me give some examples of what I am talking about. He is MOST certainly NOT part of the management club, on multiple occasions I saw him say no to STUPID shit from above. The Command wanted to deploy someone to a useless position...NO, he stopped it and took the heat. Being told his wing needed to perform some dopey make-busy tasks on a weekend..."Fuck NO" was his answer. Performing and tracking bullshit queep tasks that had nothing to do with mission..."Don't fucking do it." He hates the career model and is straight up PROUD he was never an exec and never did a pentagon tour. One final example, THREE days after met him he pushed a set of G Series orders for the Wing across the desk and told me he was leaving for almost a month. The Wing ORI was going to kick off four days later so I asked "what is your guidance"...his response was "don't fuck it up...they know what to do." He didn't call during the ORI, no second guessing, no micro-managing...zip. When it was over I called him and he said how did it go? I answered "we got an Excellent" and he replied "those fuckers should have given us an Outstanding...anyway here is what is happening down range." For those who think we need the second coming of Robin Olds (and we do), please remember Olds was fucking his wing secretary and was not exactly easy on those around him when he was drinking which was often...even the great ones have warts. I am sure none of this is translating, I am too close and truly respect the guy. I have other stories I can't share. Also, if he came back to read this he would be pissed to see me defend him.

He has very strong beliefs and I fully understand the negative reaction to his statement above. That being said he is straight up a combat leader and and on MANY occasions and in MANY ways he fought for the line guy...on his own authority he simply ended queep and took the heat from above. Not a single one of us is perfect but I am telling you I would follow that dude into combat any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Management buddies? Liquid is a good dude, he has been promoted again and I think his job and circumstances keep him away from this forum...I am assuming. We are friends but I don't discuss this place with him. As for other senior folks, I wish I had a better answer. I am admittedly disillusioned having run in those circles and I am truly sad to say many are sycophants that could care less what you post on here because they believe alternate realities and nothing you can say (even the facts), will convince them otherwise. When you try to tell the MAJCOM/CC there is a retention train wreck coming and his response is "they will stay because they are patriots"...you reply, but sir they have done their duty over and OVER again...then he replies "fuck them, we will just make more." Some of these assholes made it worse out of pure malice...one in particular REALLY fucked some good people over and they got out. One dude had a life-long dream to fly the B-2, the now 2-star select refused on principle (our manning would have allowed it), so a Great pilot bailed. The same guy then stopped another guy from going to TPS (another life-long dream), because he was a CV-22 flight lead and we were short...so they guy got out and now flies for Delta. Much of our senior leadership is septic...the only reason they are pretending to care is because we are indeed 1920 pilots short and it is only going to get worse...MUCH worse.