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2 hours ago, Lawman said:

The second you put a pod or ball on it you will cease to have it as an option for airlift.

There is no limit to the thirst for FMV from manned platforms. Honestly the only way to protect an airlift platform is to make sure it can’t be used as a jack of all trades crappy substitute for GOCO C-12s or U-28s.

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A potential problem no doubt but methinks the Bobs could only be sold on this if it was cheap, has multiple capabilities and little to no developmental risks.  Hence, a platform like the Churchill modified Caravan or another similar turn key solution with sensor stations, hard points, payload capability, etc... already engineered is the only option, if acquired.

Just my two cents but I would see the fleet of these switching roles as the conflict changes.  During major combat ops, it serves as a liaison platform for light cargo/pax movement where it can operate, during stabilization ops with low threat airspace established it can swing as required to ISR support.

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On 8/26/2019 at 6:49 PM, jice said:

Awesome points; would be interested to see how many airframes would be required to generate an air bridge to sustain something like that. Asking because I’ve got no concept: Do you think it would be possible to surge and provide that type of flexible resupply (assuming the admin were no factor) for any period of time with the current fleet? What would need to change if no? Is that something the MAF thinks about/trains for?

Happy to exchange .mil/other via PM if you’re more comfortable answering there. 

Without going into details, many C-130 and C-17 units are researching and developing these capabilities as we speak.  These ideas are in their infancy stages but MAF leadership is starting to focus heavily on the near peer fight and what that logistical situation (ie adaptive basing) would look like. 

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Without going into details, many C-130 and C-17 units are researching and developing these capabilities as we speak.  These ideas are in their infancy stages but MAF leadership is starting to focus heavily on the near peer fight and what that logistical situation (ie adaptive basing) would look like. 


That's the problem-it's an logistics enterprise issue, not an airlift issue. You can solve the airlift issue relatively easily (it'll take work, but it's solvable). This only solves the tactical problem.

The real (operational) problem is how to move and stage people/units/equipment/fuel/etc for airlift/movement.
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On 12/29/2019 at 7:40 PM, Clark Griswold said:
A potential problem no doubt but methinks the Bobs could only be sold on this if it was cheap, has multiple capabilities and little to no developmental risks.  Hence, a platform like the Churchill modified Caravan or another similar turn key solution with sensor stations, hard points, payload capability, etc... already engineered is the only option, if acquired.
Just my two cents but I would see the fleet of these switching roles as the conflict changes.  During major combat ops, it serves as a liaison platform for light cargo/pax movement where it can operate, during stabilization ops with low threat airspace established it can swing as required to ISR support.

 


I just don’t see that logic tracking through the demands of high level people.

We already have a fleet of non utilized liaison aircraft and instead we fly important people on their own much more expensive aircraft that could be used for any other mission. We flew the Chinook hours out of an entire Brigade in Iraq because for some reason we couldn’t use a C-12 to move 2 people regularly. Honestly it would have been smarter to just pull one of the dozen manned ISR platforms and make it do that job.

Likewise we have “airlift” capability in aircraft that will never because of the demand of their other mission be used as airlift in the minds of the planners. How often is anybody sticking pallets in a KC-10 when it can do that and in some cases do it at greater volume than other airlift in country. Not talking about "hey we can take our stuff TDY" I mean looking at the available lines and taking aircraft from mission A to task to mission B. It doesn’t happen because nobody is giving up a tanker to move pallets of stuff. ISR would get the same treatment. Even if it’s pod mounted, you might as well weld it on, because when the COCOM with the big show going on is trying to steal assets from other theatres like CENTCOM in 16-17, you aren’t going to see them turn one of your available TOC porn relay stations into a high value low density parts transport.


Oddly enough... this is exactly the mission the C-27 was intended to do. Irregular immediate request logistical support. It don’t fly ring routes, and it’s not for anybody else to retask.


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5 hours ago, Lawman said:

I just don’t see that logic tracking through the demands of high level people.

We already have a fleet of non utilized liaison aircraft and instead we fly important people on their own much more expensive aircraft that could be used for any other mission. We flew the Chinook hours out of an entire Brigade in Iraq because for some reason we couldn’t use a C-12 to move 2 people regularly. Honestly it would have been smarter to just pull one of the dozen manned ISR platforms and make it do that job.

Likewise we have “airlift” capability in aircraft that will never because of the demand of their other mission be used as airlift in the minds of the planners. How often is anybody sticking pallets in a KC-10 when it can do that and in some cases do it at greater volume than other airlift in country. Not talking about "hey we can take our stuff TDY" I mean looking at the available lines and taking aircraft from mission A to task to mission B. It doesn’t happen because nobody is giving up a tanker to move pallets of stuff. ISR would get the same treatment. Even if it’s pod mounted, you might as well weld it on, because when the COCOM with the big show going on is trying to steal assets from other theatres like CENTCOM in 16-17, you aren’t going to see them turn one of your available TOC porn relay stations into a high value low density parts transport.

Oddly enough... this is exactly the mission the C-27 was intended to do. Irregular immediate request logistical support. It don’t fly ring routes, and it’s not for anybody else to retask.

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Agree that it would get shanghaied often with too much visibility / control by high level / centralized folks so I would argue due to the low cost, low footprint and low capability of this support asset, it should be penny packet'd down to the Wing/OG level to allow for that support you alluded to with the gone too soon Spartan.  

The AF would have to relax it's typical death grip of control and junkie like addiction to constant visibility on every asset and allow the lower echelons to self-organize and manage these small airlift requirements and maybe even ISR requirements.  Likely a mutual support system at a peer to peer level, help your bros and your bros will help you, don't and you're probably on your own.

Now that (de-centralized control) could come with a lot of second order effects (good and bad) - quick support to units with requirements that fell below the line in a centralized planning process but airspace coordination/control issues by unknown players showing up if not communicated properly as examples.

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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 5:07 PM, Lawman said:

 

 


The second you put a pod or ball on it you will cease to have it as an option for airlift.

There is no limit to the thirst for FMV from manned platforms. Honestly the only way to protect an airlift platform is to make sure it can’t be used as a jack of all trades crappy substitute for GOCO C-12s or U-28s.


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Whether organic or for partners there is utility in having a similar platform for that conduct a variety of missions (lift/airdrop/ISR/strike/etc.). Especially for partner nations when you start talking small fleet dynamics. Your run into the "jack of all, master of none" issue but makes for easier fleet/aircrew management. Not to mention the systems being employed, I can train pretty much anyone to do either fairly quickly to a basic level. I have guys right now doing all to one degree or another, the flexibility is awesome. And makes for easier integration i.e. AC-208 escort/armed overwatch for C-208 airdrop that can the roll into ISR/armed overwatch for a ground unit.

Cooter

 

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Whether organic or for partners there is utility in having a similar platform for that conduct a variety of missions (lift/airdrop/ISR/strike/etc.). Especially for partner nations when you start talking small fleet dynamics. Your run into the "jack of all, master of none" issue but makes for easier fleet/aircrew management. Not to mention the systems being employed, I can train pretty much anyone to do either fairly quickly to a basic level. I have guys right now doing all to one degree or another, the flexibility is awesome. And makes for easier integration i.e. AC-208 escort/armed overwatch for C-208 airdrop that can the roll into ISR/armed overwatch for a ground unit.
Cooter
 


Which is fine for AVFID. We are talking about making this item part of the conventional order of battle.


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