Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

I had a guy in my neighborhood growing up that was convinced all USPS/FedEx/USPS trucks were actually secret government spy vehicles. He would go out in the street with his camcorder and record himself calling the cops on the "spies" while yelling at them in his sweatpants and hitting the trucks with a baseball bat. 

 

Bashichuni and FLEA would tell you "well we have to consider his perspective that trucks are a red line in his neighborhood, receiving mail is provocative to him so it's your fault he attacks when you receive mail" 

So it was cool when Russia put nukes in Cuba right? They were only there to defend Cuba. You will be cool next month when Putin puts nukes in Belarus as well right? They are there for Belarus' defense after all. 

But the hilarious thing is, you guys are on here, calling Putin a madman that needs removed from power, but then call him crazy when he says he feels threatened from the west. Like bro, you just threatened him. 

[Best-22]

1 minute ago, FLEA said:

So it was cool when Russia put nukes in Cuba right? They were only there to defend Cuba. You will be cool next month when Putin puts nukes in Belarus as well right? They are there for Belarus' defense after all. 

But the hilarious thing is, you guys are on here, calling Putin a madman that needs removed from power, but then call him crazy when he says he feels threatened from the west. Like bro, you just threatened him. 

At the end of the day, there was no existential threat or imminent military action aimed at Moscow that forced an invasion of Ukraine. Use as many false equivalencies or "what if" scenarios as you'd like, but nothing changes that fact. 

 

You want it to be one way, but it's the other way. 

[FLEA]

13 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

At the end of the day, there was no existential threat or imminent military action aimed at Moscow that forced an invasion of Ukraine. Use as many false equivalencies or "what if" scenarios as you'd like, but nothing changes that fact. 

 

You want it to be one way, but it's the other way. 

You misread my take and the situation very severely. I agree Putin overstepped with Ukraine. I'm not backing his decision. Im saying this could have been solved with diplomacy as recently as 3 weeks ago and nobody was interested in doing that. Putin handed us a letter and told us want would prevent his action and we completely dismissed it. Now I'm not saying just cave to all of his dands but certainly some of them were entertainable. Everyone thought Putin was bluffing, and he wasn't. I dont think he was justified but I think this was preventable. Putin didn't miscalculate, the vast majority of Intel shows he expected sanctions and started hardening his economy for it. We miscalculated. When you're talking about the world's largest nuclear power and the lives of 10s of millions of civilians, you do not get to ride on a pass of " 'Merica, fuck yeah." You need to be a responsible player. Our interests is the lives of our citizens, that certainly becomes more important to me than Ukranian lives or freedoms any day. But there are far to many people on here that seem ready to just jump straight to war not believing Putin will go tooth an nail on this. You already miscalculated once. Why are you so sure you won't do it again? 

[ecugringo]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

You misread my take and the situation very severely. I agree Putin overstepped with Ukraine. I'm not backing his decision. Im saying this could have been solved with diplomacy as recently as 3 weeks ago and nobody was interested in doing that. Putin handed us a letter and told us want would prevent his action and we completely dismissed it. Now I'm not saying just cave to all of his dands but certainly some of them were entertainable. Everyone thought Putin was bluffing, and he wasn't. I dont think he was justified but I think this was preventable. Putin didn't miscalculate, the vast majority of Intel shows he expected sanctions and started hardening his economy for it. We miscalculated. When you're talking about the world's largest nuclear power and the lives of 10s of millions of civilians, you do not get to ride on a pass of " 'Merica, yeah." You need to be a responsible player. Our interests is the lives of our citizens, that certainly becomes more important to me than Ukranian lives or freedoms any day. But there are far to many people on here that seem ready to just jump straight to war not believing Putin will go tooth an nail on this. You already miscalculated once. Why are you so sure you won't do it again? 

You are only speculating on his demands.  I dont underestimate Putin at all and I think he's the strongest player in this chess match.  Everyone needs to figure out what his end game is.  As you stated he prepped for sanctions.  He knew taking Ukraine would isolate him on the global playing field.  Do you really think Ukraine is the end zone?  my guess is no.  He wants to make Western Europe his bitch and control fuel/gas prices they must buy.  I think he also wants a bigger say in how oil prices fluctuate globally.  His population is dying.  In his mind if he doesnt expand Russia will be nothing more than Ft. McMurry is in Canada in 50 years.

[pawnman]

9 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Very infantile analysis of Russia. You’re seeing everything from your western perspective 

Is this like when liberals told me I couldn't judge Islamic countries for honor killings "because it's their culture, you just don't understand"?

[BashiChuni]

43 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Is this like when liberals told me I couldn't judge Islamic countries for honor killings "because it's their culture, you just don't understand"?

No

[BashiChuni]

5 hours ago, Best-22 said:

I had a guy in my neighborhood growing up that was convinced all USPS/FedEx/USPS trucks were actually secret government spy vehicles. He would go out in the street with his camcorder and record himself calling the cops on the "spies" while yelling at them in his sweatpants and hitting the trucks with a baseball bat. 

 

Bashichuni and FLEA would tell you "well we have to consider his perspective that trucks are a red line in his neighborhood, receiving mail is provocative to him so it's your fault he attacks when you receive mail" 

Lol does he have thousands of nuclear weapons? ☢️ 

Did you read the twitter thread I posted that had the US’s leading foreign policy thinkers warning us for decades that we were poking the bear? (Pun intended)

provoking nuclear armed states is not in the best interest of US foreign policy. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by BashiChuni

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, Best-22 said:

At the end of the day, there was no existential threat or imminent military action aimed at Moscow that forced an invasion of Ukraine. 

That is YOUR OPINION. 

do you think Putin shares your western opinion? 
 

“NATO has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. NATO expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” - Putin 2007

Edited March 4, 2022 by BashiChuni

[goingkinetic]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

Sure, and they could have lived in free capitalist democracies that weren't apart of NATO. Noone ever said you have to be in NATO to be a free capitalist democracy. Japan isn't in NATO. South Korea isn't. Australia isn't. 

WE didn't have to accept them. They don't just get to join NATO because they filled out a membership app. We voted with approval to do it, knowing for 30 years it wasn't in our interest. 

Did we ever think for a minute what the ramifications were of tieing ourselves to an obligation to defend every fledgeling state that signs a treaty to us. Do you have any idea how dangerous that is? How much blood and treasure that incurs? Don't make commitments you don't intend to keep because that is the cross roads we are at. If Lithuania is attacked tomorrow, we face the very real probability of large American metropolises being decimated to the point they'll never be recovered because we decided NATO was important enough it was worth aggravating Russia over. Mean while, if we are attacked, what's Lithuania going to do? Send an infantry battalion and an ambulance team? Ok thanks.....

You realize there is SEATO right? Thats why Aussies, Kiwis and South Koreans were in Vietnam with us.

[kaputt]

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

But I think your solution to all this is to stop waiting and just take the fight to Putin. You just said it. The world has no place for his system. So your solution is to what? Get NATO to just invade Russia and oust him? Man.... Putin certainly doesn't have any security concerns from NATO or the US.....

I haven’t once said that. This whole burst of debate was caused by another poster claiming that the US is at fault because we “expanded NATO to Russia’s door step”, which is such a load of bullshit it’s laughable.

Yeah, yeah, you’ll both follow up with that, “that’s just your western opinion man”. 
 

That’s such a lazy statement and you could literally counter every terrible thing that’s ever happened in the world since the beginning of time with “well the other side saw it this way”.

[BashiChuni]

9 minutes ago, kaputt said:

I haven’t once said that. This whole burst of debate was caused by another poster claiming that the US is at fault because we “expanded NATO to Russia’s door step”, which is such a load of bullshit it’s laughable.

Yeah, yeah, you’ll both follow up with that, “that’s just your western opinion man”. 
 

That’s such a lazy statement and you could literally counter every terrible thing that’s ever happened in the world since the beginning of time with “well the other side saw it this way”.

I’m not saying it. I’m quoting leading US foreign policy statesmen who have been saying it. Reference the twitter thread I posted for names and quotes. 
 

we ignored the warning signs and now act shocked that Putin is acting this way. 

[BashiChuni]

18 minutes ago, kaputt said:

I haven’t once said that. This whole burst of debate was caused by another poster claiming that the US is at fault because we “expanded NATO to Russia’s door step”, which is such a load of bullshit it’s laughable.

Can you elaborate how this is “bull shit”?

im curious how that can be the case when Putin has called NATO expansion eastward to his border “unacceptable”

how in the world is that bullshit? He is fucking telling you plain as day. 
 

Edited March 4, 2022 by BashiChuni

[goingkinetic]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Can you elaborate how this is “bull shit”?

im curious how that can be the case when Putin has called NATO expansion eastward to his border “unacceptable”

how in the world is that bullshit? He is ing telling you plain as day. 
 

Are we taking orders from Putin? You might as well call your argument the Neville Chamberlain plan.

[Wendell]

21 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

I’m not saying it. I’m quoting leading US foreign policy statesmen who have been saying it. Reference the twitter thread I posted for names and quotes. 
 

we ignored the warning signs and now act shocked that Putin is acting this way. 

“Leading foreign policy statesmen” are a large part of the reason the world is so fked up right now.  Just because they say something doesn’t mean it’s the truth.  It’s worth listening too sure, but it is just an opinion which history shows over and over again they get wrong.  I do know what Putin is doing right now is his own making and is fk’ed up, I don’t need to blame NATO or the US for Putin killing civilians and holding the world hostage with his nuclear weapons. Just because people like to do some circle jerk because they have all sorts of academic degrees doesn’t mean they are any smarter than the rest of the unwashed masses who can use common sense to know something is wrong when they see it.  I am tired of having to think about other countries background when what they are doing is wrong. And again any more dead Russians to post?

Edited March 4, 2022 by Wendell

[kaputt]

12 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Can you elaborate how this is “bull shit”?

im curious how that can be the case when Putin has called NATO expansion eastward to his border “unacceptable”

how in the world is that bullshit? He is fucking telling you plain as day. 
 

I’ve elaborated multiple times already. Eastward expansion of NATO as a threat to Russia is a Putin derived fantasy tale used to justify his own personal goals and desires for power in the region. It’s clear you believe that story line though.

[BashiChuni]

11 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Are we taking orders from Putin? You might as well call your argument the Neville Chamberlain plan.

Not a relevant historical comparison

[BashiChuni]

7 minutes ago, Wendell said:

“Leading foreign policy statesmen” are a large part of the reason the world is so fked up right now.  Just because they say something doesn’t mean it’s the truth.
 

I am tired of having to think about other countries background when what they are doing is wrong. And again any more dead Russians to post?

Agree some “experts” have fucked up the world. The academics I’ve quoted have been warning how to not escalate this tragic situation we find ourselves in. They have not been the ones fucking it up. 
 

your second thought illustrates why our foreign policy as been a dumpster fire. 

[Best-22]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

That is YOUR OPINION. 

do you think Putin shares your western opinion? 
 

“NATO has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. NATO expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” - Putin 2007

1. Quibbling 

2. Haze yourself. 

[goingkinetic]

I’ve been giving historical examples to justify my argument. Which you dismiss as “not relevant”. I would argue thats typical academic hubris because it might derail your argument. Youre using youtube videos of academics to justify your own non-historical viewpoint. Its like a bunch of professors sitting in a circle smelling their own farts and telling each other how wonderful they are.

[Best-22]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

You misread my take and the situation very severely. I agree Putin overstepped with Ukraine. I'm not backing his decision. Im saying this could have been solved with diplomacy as recently as 3 weeks ago and nobody was interested in doing that. Putin handed us a letter and told us want would prevent his action and we completely dismissed it. Now I'm not saying just cave to all of his dands but certainly some of them were entertainable. Everyone thought Putin was bluffing, and he wasn't. I dont think he was justified but I think this was preventable. Putin didn't miscalculate, the vast majority of Intel shows he expected sanctions and started hardening his economy for it. We miscalculated. When you're talking about the world's largest nuclear power and the lives of 10s of millions of civilians, you do not get to ride on a pass of " 'Merica, yeah." You need to be a responsible player. Our interests is the lives of our citizens, that certainly becomes more important to me than Ukranian lives or freedoms any day. But there are far to many people on here that seem ready to just jump straight to war not believing Putin will go tooth an nail on this. You already miscalculated once. Why are you so sure you won't do it again? 

Fixed this for you:

 

You misread my take and the situation very severely. I agree Putin overstepped with Ukraine. I'm not backing his decision. Im saying this could have been solved with diplomacy as recently as 3 weeks ago and Putin wasn't interested in doing that. We handed Putin a letter and told him what would prevent the sanctions, and he completely dismissed it. Now I'm not saying just cave to all of our demands, but certainly some of them were entertainable. Everyone thought we were bluffing, and we weren't. I dont think he was justified and I think this was preventable. The west didn't miscalculate, the vast majority of Intel shows he expected to quickly roll over Ukraine and be done before the sanctions really started to hurt. He miscalculated. When you're talking about the world's largest nuclear power and the lives of 10s of millions of civilians, you do not get to ride on a pass of "Russia feels threatened" You need to be a responsible player. Our interest is the lives of our citizens, that certainly becomes more important to me than Ukranian lives or freedoms any day. But there are far to many people on here that seem ready to just jump straight to appeasement believing Putin will stop if we just give him this one more thing. You already miscalculated once. Why are you so sure you won't do it again? 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

Not a relevant historical comparison

A country seizing parts of a neighboring country while governments with the power to stop it say things like "its not our concern" and "we don't want to start a bigger war" certainly seems analogous to me.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Best-22 said:

1. Quibbling 

2. Haze yourself. 

Great arguments!

we should definitely follow you into WW3! America!

[BashiChuni]

31 minutes ago, pawnman said:

A country seizing parts of a neighboring country while governments with the power to stop it say things like "its not our concern" and "we don't want to start a bigger war" certainly seems analogous to me.

Comparing hitler to Putin shows how lacking your knowledge on the situation is. 2022 Russia is not 1930s Germany. 
 

if you think Putin has ambitions to conquer all of Europe then we simply cannot have a debate. 
 

and yes, we do not want to start a war over Ukraine. No one cared about Ukrainian until a few weeks ago, and suddenly everyone is foaming at the mouth to take on the Russian bear. Your emotions are being manipulated to enter a colossal strategic mistake. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by BashiChuni

[pawnman]

9 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Comparing hitler to Putin shows how lacking your knowledge on the situation is. 2022 Russia is not 1930s Germany. 
 

if you think Putin has ambitions to conquer all of Europe then we simply cannot have a debate. 

I definitely think he will take as much as he can get away with. Do I think he's gonna start a war with NATO by invading a member country? Seems unlikely. But I can definitely see him trying to pick off Moldova or Finland.

And in response to your edit: we did care about Ukraine, otherwise we wouldn't have been considering them for NATO membership. And I think it perfectly rational to oppose a country like Russia trying to just take over a country by force.  

Maybe you're content to cede US global leadership to any country willing to commit to military action against their neighbors. I'm not.

Edited March 4, 2022 by pawnman

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

I definitely think he will take as much as he can get away with. Do I think he's gonna start a war with NATO by invading a member country? Seems unlikely. But I can definitely see him trying to pick off Moldova or Finland.

And if he does then we have a different calculus. But for now based on what he has said and done we do not get involved. And we try to extinguish the flames and passions of war.