The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Sim]

35 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Usually one officer is paired with a lethal and another officer with a non-lethal. (taser, pepper ball, etc...)  

Attempt of using said TTP - One lethal and one non-lethal.

z

[Lord Ratner]

17 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Sure there is risk, and thats acknowledged. But when we practice ORM we never say "deliberately ignore risk because its part of the job." We mitigate using planning and TTP's. 

In general, police are exposed to far more risk than people in the military and have only a fraction of the social benefit should they entail injury. Its difficult for us as a society to ask them to accept more risk. Who is willing to front the lifetime disability and early pensions for all of these officers we are asking to accept injury? Or is it, "sorry, just part of the job dude, enjoy never having use of your left hand again. Good luck finding work outside of policing." 

In general? Over all time maybe. Certainly compared to the Air Force. But the ground pounders were absolutely expected to get hurt. Doesn't mean you tried to, doesn't mean we wanted them to, but we all know it would happen. And they didn't get to unload on some Iraqi shop owner because he reached for something. That would protect them but damage the mission. Policing is the same.

 

As I said, in a one on one engagement, the cop should shoot the guy with the knife. But are we going to pretend that the risk stays the same regardless of the number of cops going against one assailant? That's forced ignorance. If this guy had a knife, would these cops be in mortal danger?:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html

 

Sorry, but I don't believe in that vision of American policing. And if you think it's as simple as "just do what the cops say, you won't get shot," have you ever been drunk? Ever had a cop pointing a gun at your face? Hard to think clearly. Shouldn't be a death sentence.

 

Sim's video is a great example of how, overwhelmingly, our cops do the right thing. And neither of those cops died. They should have tazed him from the start, and shot him once he charged. But let's not pretend like they're all like that. Reaching for something that might be a gun is not the same as having a gun. 

 

Not sure where you're coming from with the disability payments. I never made that argument, don't support it, so I'm not going to defend it.

[Guardian]

Like clockwork, Sim with the propaganda...

Addition: No one is saying knives aren’t dangerous, and that they cannot be used to kill a police officer, but good job, way to add constructive words to the conversation...

Also, just saying, a black dude in your video would have been shot much earlier than this white guy... Maybe he is a black guy, but it is grainy so I can’t tell.

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Slackline man...seriously? You’re being a troll.

It’s not propaganda to post a video that shows a real life event without any commentary. That’s just a weird statement.

And did he have to add constructive words to the post? Is that a requirement? Do you have questions for him instead of accusations? Maybe ask him why he posted it instead of assuming. Which I’m not saying you are liberal but that is a very liberal and radical feminism thing to do. You’re better than that. The military should have taught you better than that. Hope this was just a momentary lack of judgement. I have many.

Also, what evidence do you have that a black dude in this exact same scenario would have been shot sooner? Are saying these two cops would have done something different based on the color of the guys skin? So same time of day,same location, same cops, same everything except skin color. And if that were the case you are saying that the black dude would have been gunned down way sooner? Based off what facts, reason or logic?

Dude. The only racism here is your statement. I would have a tough time working in the military with those sick twisted racist thoughts. That’s not what America is about slackline. I challenge you to explain what you meant. I will retract if I’m totally off base.

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, slackline said:

Like clockwork, Sim with the propaganda...

Addition: No one is saying knives aren’t dangerous, and that they cannot be used to kill a police officer, but good job, way to add constructive words to the conversation...

Also, just saying, a black dude in your video would have been shot much earlier than this white guy... Maybe he is a black guy, but it is grainy so I can’t tell.

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You just called the cop in that video a racist. There is no black man in the video. You don't know who that cop is.

But because he is a cop, in your mind...he's a racist.

What a horrible way to think.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

In general? Over all time maybe. Certainly compared to the Air Force. But the ground pounders were absolutely expected to get hurt. Doesn't mean you tried to, doesn't mean we wanted them to, but we all know it would happen. And they didn't get to unload on some Iraqi shop owner because he reached for something. That would protect them but damage the mission. Policing is the same.

 

As I said, in a one on one engagement, the cop should shoot the guy with the knife. But are we going to pretend that the risk stays the same regardless of the number of cops going against one assailant? That's forced ignorance. If this guy had a knife, would these cops be in mortal danger?:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html

 

Sorry, but I don't believe in that vision of American policing. And if you think it's as simple as "just do what the cops say, you won't get shot," have you ever been drunk? Ever had a cop pointing a gun at your face? Hard to think clearly. Shouldn't be a death sentence.

 

Sim's video is a great example of how, overwhelmingly, our cops do the right thing. And neither of those cops died. They should have tazed him from the start, and shot him once he charged. But let's not pretend like they're all like that. Reaching for something that might be a gun is not the same as having a gun. 

 

Not sure where you're coming from with the disability payments. I never made that argument, don't support it, so I'm not going to defend it.

If you think anything ground guys do in the military is comparable to policing you need to reevaluate how you estimate risk. The force ratio we have in theater is enormous and backed by a monstrous machine or ISR, air support and quick reaction forces. The ROEs are generally more permissive and over a 20 year career at even the worse deployment to dwell ratios your exposure is only 50-60% of your career vs. upwards of 100%. Better ballistics protection, better command and control, always attached to another person via buddy system, I could go on. I'm not saying what they don't do is dangerous, but seriously man, think about it for a minute. 

My wife was a cop for 3 years. I spent a lot of time doing ride a longs with her and her friends in some of the worst areas of a major city know for gang violence. Two friends in my squadron also had cop wives. In 3 years one had been stabbed twice and shot one. The other one had been shot. My wife was luckily never in that position. But you are comparing apples to oranges. 

Also, if you're so drunk you can't think rationally to the point you are threatening people, maybe check your life choices a bit. Your an officer, presumably, so I expect your capable of being responsible to an extent. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by FLEA

[slackline]

Slackline man...seriously? You’re being a troll.

It’s not propaganda to post a video that shows a real life event without any commentary. That’s just a weird statement.

And did he have to add constructive words to the post? Is that a requirement? Do you have questions for him instead of accusations? Maybe ask him why he posted it instead of assuming. Which I’m not saying you are liberal but that is a very liberal and radical feminism thing to do. You’re better than that. The military should have taught you better than that. Hope this was just a momentary lack of judgement. I have many.

Also, what evidence do you have that a black dude in this exact same scenario would have been shot sooner? Are saying these two cops would have done something different based on the color of the guys skin? So same time of day,same location, same cops, same everything except skin color. And if that were the case you are saying that the black dude would have been gunned down way sooner? Based off what facts, reason or logic?

Dude. The only racism here is your statement. I would have a tough time working in the military with those sick twisted racist thoughts. That’s not what America is about slackline. I challenge you to explain what you meant. I will retract if I’m totally off base.

That’s funny right there. You guys jump on any chance to label people you don’t agree with as racist. The statistics have been posted a million times. I’m not going to go out and find them for you, yet again, simply because you choose to ignore them.

I’ll admit, I’m providing anecdotal evidence, but do a quick google search my friend. You’ll find a lot of evidence where white people are given much more time and opportunity to “put down the” insert weapon here... POC flinch and cops shoot. Doesn’t matter if they’re black or white or Asian cops. Again, the evidence has been posted in this very thread at a minimum 15-20 times. You choose to rationalize/justify it away.

Calling it radical feminism or very liberal doesn’t somehow make you right in this very conservative echo chamber. Give me a break.

Sim frequently posts garbage with zero explanations from incredibly questionable sources, so why would this time be any different. Feel free to call me a troll if it makes you feel better. He posts his memes or videos as if they’re exclamation points to an argument, and no further words need be shared. Give me a break. Chill with your righteous indignation.

I know very conservative people that I don’t agree with on a few things that recognize systemic racism. You guys have yet to provide real proof it doesn’t. You simply rationalize/justify it away. I’m here, in part, to learn from the smart people on here, but also to be one of the voices that challenges people’s preconceived notions. Sorry if you don’t like it.

Again, the evidence abounds.


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[slackline]

You just called the cop in that video a racist. There is no black man in the video. You don't know who that cop is.
But because he is a cop, in your mind...he's a racist.
What a horrible way to think.

Big, massive, enormous difference in what I said and calling that cop racist. Systemic racism doesn’t require racist people. The system has biases that say that POC are more dangerous than white people, so they’re more prone to reacting with violence quicker to POC than to white people.

I highly doubt that cop is racist.


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[Guardian]

Wow. You are a troll. You even are projecting what you are doing onto others. You are offering no facts. Just opinion. You are the very definition of what you are accusing others of.

And just because something happened somewhere else doesn’t mean that you can apply the data to a different situation and call it the same.

I agree. Systematic racism of affirmative action needs to be stopped.

Man it’s like arguing with a brand new Lt. Or young airman. I would be very surprised if you are older than about 26-28 and have been in the military very long. Your ability to rationalize your own garbage in your own echo chamber is impressive!

[FLEA]

19 minutes ago, FLEA said:

If you think anything ground guys do in the military is comparable to policing you need to reevaluate how you estimate risk. The force ratio we have in theater is enormous and backed by a monstrous machine or ISR, air support and quick reaction forces. The ROEs are generally more permissive and over a 20 year career at even the worse deployment to dwell ratios your exposure is only 50-60% of your career vs. upwards of 100%. Better ballistics protection, better command and control, always attached to another person via buddy system, I could go on. I'm not saying what they don't do is dangerous, but seriously man, think about it for a minute. 

My wife was a cop for 3 years. I spent a lot of time doing ride a longs with her and her friends in some of the worst areas of a major city know for gang violence. Two friends in my squadron also had cop wives. In 3 years one had been stabbed twice and shot one. The other one had been shot. My wife was luckily never in that position. But you are comparing apples to oranges. 

Also, if you're so drunk you can't think rationally to the point you are threatening people, maybe check your life choices a bit. Your an officer, presumably, so I expect your capable of being responsible to an extent. 

Quick bar napkin math. 

2.72M people have deployed to ME in GWOT and sustained 7053 deaths. 1/385

Since GWOT started, 664,000 peace officers in the United States have sustained 3323 deaths. 1/199. 

Respect to the difference of those who work outside the wire versus those who do not but realise police departments have plenty of admin types as well, including most park services, certain capital services, many federal investigative areas, etc...

[Lord Ratner]

33 minutes ago, FLEA said:

 

Also, if you're so drunk you can't think rationally to the point you are threatening people, maybe check your life choices a bit. Your an officer, presumably, so I expect your capable of being responsible to an extent. 

I was with you until here, now I just think you're full of it.

 

Maybe I was in a different Air Force, or maybe you're one of those Colonels who suddenly found the enlightenment of sobriety only after you had your fun and could keep a bottle of Scotch tucked away in the desk drawer while you counsel young pilots on a 0-0-1-3 drinking philosophy neither you nor your peers ever followed, but either way you're full of shit. Was the kid in that video threatening anyone? 

 

I get it, you're close to cops. Note that I haven't blamed cops for any of this. The entire enterprise needs to be demilitarized. Other countries have figured it out. If it means more cops (which it will), then good. Let's do it. We can take the money from SS, Medicare, anywhere really, I'm all for it. But there is a problem to solve. And it has nothing to do with the horseshit fantasy of "systemic racism." 

 

As usual, the politicians want something (law and order) without paying for it (training, adequate manning, expensive non-lethal equipment). The cops get to suffer for that, which means the citizens suffer too. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem to solve, and the outright denial from the right is causing the left to look for some reason for the denial of a clear problem. They have erroneously settled on hidden racism as the answer.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Lord Ratner

[FLEA]

25 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I was with you until here, now I just think you're full of it.

 

Maybe I was in a different Air Force, or maybe you're one of those Colonels who suddenly found the enlightenment of sobriety only after you had your fun and could keep a bottle of Scotch tucked away in the desk drawer while you counsel young pilots on a 0-0-1-3 drinking philosophy neither you nor your peers ever followed, but either way you're full of shit. Was the kid in that video threatening anyone? 

 

I get it, you're close to cops. Note that I haven't blamed cops for any of this. The entire enterprise needs to be demilitarized. Other countries have figured it out. If it means more cops (which it will), then good. Let's do it. We can take the money from SS, Medicare, anywhere really, I'm all for it. But there is a problem to solve. And it has nothing to do with the horseshit fantasy of "systemic racism." 

 

As usual, the politicians want something (law and order) without paying for it (training, adequate manning, expensive non-lethal equipment). The cops get to suffer for that, which means the citizens suffer too. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem to solve, and the outright denial from the right is causing the left to look for some reason for the denial of a clear problem. They have erroneously settled on hidden racism as the answer.

No man, I've had plenty of days partying extraordinarily hard. Even had altercations with cops after being drunk. But we don't excuse anything else based on consumption of alcohol (rape, assault, etc....) I'm certainly not going to excuse a person who goes beyond retarded when theyre drunk for escalating a situation. You are responsible for your actions. If you fuck up drunk, we expect said Colonel to discipline you for it. 

(Also definitely not a Colonel or even close haha) 

Edited October 28, 2020 by FLEA

[slackline]

Quick bar napkin math. 
2.72M people have deployed to ME in GWOT and sustained 7053 deaths. 1/385
Since GWOT started, 664,000 peace officers in the United States have sustained 3323 deaths. 1/199. 
Respect to the difference of those who work outside the wire versus those who do not but realise police departments have plenty of admin types as well, including most park services, certain capital services, many federal investigative areas, etc...

Except for the fact that your bar napkin math doesn’t account for repeat offenders. I have 8 fun trips to vacation spots during that time, and have lost more than my fair share of friends. Not saying your point isn’t taken, but that it isn’t an apples to apples comparison.


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[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, slackline said:

Except for the fact that your bar napkin math doesn’t account for repeat offenders. I have 8 fun trips to vacation spots during that time, and have lost more than my fair share of friends. Not saying your point isn’t taken, but that it isn’t an apples to apples comparison.


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It actually does. That is the total # of people over 8 something million deployments. 

 

Seems high but remember it's over nearly 20 years and the vast majority of forces have high attrition to 1st enlistment separation. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by FLEA

[slackline]

Wow. You are a troll. You even are projecting what you are doing onto others. You are offering no facts. Just opinion. You are the very definition of what you are accusing others of.

And just because something happened somewhere else doesn’t mean that you can apply the data to a different situation and call it the same.

I agree. Systematic racism of affirmative action needs to be stopped.

Man it’s like arguing with a brand new Lt. Or young airman. I would be very surprised if you are older than about 26-28 and have been in the military very long. Your ability to rationalize your own garbage in your own echo chamber is impressive!

Okay buddy, my patience with your inability to comprehend what is contained in the written word is at an end. This will be the last time I engage with you (if you’re quiet, I’m sure you’ll hear a hushed cheer from the Baseops.net ranks) because you consistently show an inability to understand.

You clearly didn’t read the part where I said I’m not wasting any more time posting facts in here because it has been done AD NAUSEUM by many others. Usually those facts are immediately followed by someone who disagrees posting alternate reality or cherry picked facts to counter them. If you’re too lazy to read what has been posted in here many, many times, I can’t help you.

I think we’ve had the conversation on age as well. You might be surprised who you’re accusing of being a young LT, but it’s cool. Keep going.

You’ve made great comments in the past on other topics, but I fear, as you’ve demonstrated many times, you’re so set in your own ways on this topic so as to render worthless any future attempts to discuss. You keep on keeping on. I’ll try not to screw up the AF at my level, you try read the words that are actually written. Guess what, the world will press on...


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[slackline]

Ad nauseam. Stupid spelling...


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[Guardian]

Haha. Doesn’t matter if you are four star general. You aren’t backing up your claims. You’re just saying it’s posted elsewhere. So why make the claim if you aren’t going to back it up. Your words and reality don’t seem to meet on the same playing field.

I don’t care who you are. Doesn’t matter to me if some of the moderators don’t like me. Facts don’t have opinions or feelings. They don’t care who you are either. No one cares about how cool you think you are, what rank you are,what level of virtue signaling you do. This is an anonymous chat board. We are all just communicating.

I genuinely want to expand my mind and have open discussions. It may surprise you but I change my mind all the time when provided with a better fact or better way of thinking about something. Just because of your inability to deal with someone questioning your statements doesn’t meant that you get to then be right just because you’ve got thin skin.

I comprehend that you say you don’t want to provide facts provided elsewhere. I’m just asking you questions because I may have not seen them. If you aren’t willing to discuss then why are you here?

You’re right. I do show an inability to understand. And I want to understand. Hence when I ask questions.

Notice you haven’t provided any rational thoughts to why someone shouldn’t consider you racist. All I did was ask you questions. Explain my understanding of your statements. And ask for clarification if I am wrong. You’re pouting and running away. Seems like you have no good response or answer.

I’m sure the moderators will be very excited to hear that you are going to stop talking and move on. Maybe it’s too much to hope that you just keep on going and leave the board to those having adult discussions?

[Guardian]

Let’s hope with interpersonal skills, logic, and reasoning demonstrated that you have little to no impact on the AF your level. But Goldfien and Schwartz made it to the top. So there is probably hope for you.

[Lord Ratner]

28 minutes ago, FLEA said:

No man, I've had plenty of days partying extraordinarily hard. Even had altercations with cops after being drunk. But we don't excuse anything else based on consumption of alcohol (rape, assault, etc....) I'm certainly not going to excuse a person who goes beyond retarded when theyre drunk for escalating a situation. You are responsible for your actions. If you fuck up drunk, we expect said Colonel to discipline you for it. 

(Also definitely not a Colonel or even close haha) 

Are you implying that the shootings in referring to included aggressive behavior? Again, did you watch the video I posted? Is that "beyond retarded?" What about Philando Castille? How about the cop who shot someone because she walked into the wrong apartment? How about the 13 year old with autism? This one?:

 

These aren't even impaired people. Our cops are too jumpy. That's not their fault, but it still needs to be fixed. 

 

These shootings do not represent the average cop, but they represent a problem none the less.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Lord Ratner said:

Are you implying that the shootings in referring to included aggressive behavior? Again, did you watch the video I posted? Is that "beyond retarded?" What about Philando Castille? How about the cop who shot someone because she walked into the wrong apartment? How about the 13 year old with autism? This one?:

 

These aren't even impaired people. Our cops are too jumpy. That's not their fault, but it still needs to be fixed. 

 

These shootings do not represent the average cop, but they represent a problem none the less.

You probably should go back to the first 5 pages of this thread or so and read some of my posts. I think you would be surprised. 

[Lord Ratner]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

You probably should go back to the first 5 pages of this thread or so and read some of my posts. I think you would be surprised. 

I don't see how your view of systemic racism (which I disagree with as racism, but completely agree with IRT the societal trap that is keeping certain black communities stuck in a cycle of crime and violence) relates to the idea that police training is too quick to kill someone (regardless of skin color) who does not posses a firearm.

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I don't see how your view of systemic racism (which I disagree with as racism, but completely agree with IRT the societal trap that is keeping certain black communities stuck in a cycle of crime and violence) relates to the idea that police training is too quick to kill someone (regardless of skin color) who does not posses a firearm.

I'll write a response in a few. Keep getting pulled away from my Zoom class. Lol. 

[Lord Ratner]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I'll write a response in a few. Keep getting pulled away from my Zoom class. Lol. 

No rush. I know we're about 80%+ on the same page here.

[slackline]

You probably should go back to the first 5 pages of this thread or so and read some of my posts. I think you would be surprised. 

Careful, there’s a kid on here who’ll call you out for not re-hashing EVERYTHING you’ve already said many times. You and I don’t agree on this topic, but I totally respect you and your position because I’ve read it many times. I wouldn’t further ask you to repost it all because I’m too lazy or stupid to have read it the first few times...

Was that too on the nose? I kind of apologize, it was also a little passive aggressive, but at least I recognize it right?


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[Guardian]

At best it was pouting.

And kind of funny too. Because you’ve asked me to repost my questions you didn’t answer in the past.

Everyone’s a critic and everyone’s a hypocrite.

Edit: except you of course......

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Let’s hope with interpersonal skills, logic, and reasoning demonstrated that you have little to no impact on the AF your level. But Goldfien and Schwartz made it to the top. So there is probably hope for you.

Who's the troll now?