Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 They deport themselves from their home country for that reason, yet it's absurd to think that people would do the same here. Yep, it's delusional. Tree are you trying to make the case the entire u.s. is private property? If so, who holds the title? If you're not, why would you try to make a comparison with my private property? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I should have been more clear in what I was thinking I guess They will definitely self deport, but not until the point that our country is in worse shape than they countries they are running away from right now, in which case the US won't really be the US anymore. Lawman's analogy was spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 They deport themselves from their home country for that reason, yet it's absurd to think that people would do the same here. Are you assessing what you're saying? You want to let so many people into the US that living conditions are worse here than where they originated so that they will then leave? You would like it to be worse to live in the United States than Uganda, Haiti, Venezuela, Russia, Georgia, Romania, or [insert any other country here]? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons. I think you like how your idea sounds. I hardly think you would like the reality of your idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 They deport themselves from their home country for that reason, yet it's absurd to think that people would do the same here. Yep, it's delusional. Tree are you trying to make the case the entire u.s. is private property? If so, who holds the title? If you're not, why would you try to make a comparison with my private property? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Let's see, I earn money that is my private property. The government then takes their cut. I'd like to limit that cut to those funds required for the operational needs of the nation and not any more. By allowing anyone and everyone to wander into our Continental Kegger and pull up a beer, we are now on the hook for education, for medical, and for ensuring basic nutrition and shelter. I could give you a quick little tour in our neck of the woods with a good number of non-english speaking elementary students or maybe hang out in the Emergency Room at a Fort Worth hospital with a whole lot more non-english speaking folks. Government is not some obscure, distant relative. Government is "We the People." By saying "We" should pay for something, you are saying "I" should pay for something. And I vote no. If you want to pay for it, good for you, knock yourself out. And if you are going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk. Open up your home and wallet to anyone and everyone who needs the space. Like Thatcher said, socialism is easy until you run out of other peoples money. That being said, I've had some nice conversations and associations with a PhD Chemist from Belarus, a couple engineers, Electrical and Nuclear from India, a doctor from Ireland, and a Veterinarian from Australia. All had amazing stories and are thriving here. I'll take all of those guys we can get. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 You're not listening. Who said anything about socialism? What does government run industry have to do with allowing immigration to whomever wants it? If a person immigrates here and is now included in our "tax base" (isn't that the gop mantra? Increase the tax base) then how are they not included in the "we" when it comes to supporting the educational and housing needs? You voting no to pay for something is ok, but when I say no I'm some raving lunatic. Funny how hypocrisy works. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons. Going back to what Tree has been asking...why not open up your house and let anyone and everyone stay and use all your stuff until it's so run down and there's so little left they all just leave? By not allowing that to happen, you're limiting human freedom for your own selfish reasons. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If a person immigrates here and is now included in our "tax base" (isn't that the gop mantra? Increase the tax base) then how are they not included in the "we" when it comes to supporting the educational and housing needs? So now you're talking about legal immigration, not just opening the border and letting anyone wander in. Pick a horse. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Sigh. Another who can't distinguish the difference between private property and public property. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!I said free (i.e . open) immigration that is managed. Work on the reading comprehension. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Legal, free immigration to all. Sounds just like what I'm advocating. Keeping borders closed restricts human freedom. Restrictions on the right to migrate are only moral if there is clear evidence of very bad consequences. I said free (i.e . open) immigration that is managed. Work on the reading comprehension. But it's not what you said. You said there should be no restrictions and an absolutely open border, i.e. no control. Edited May 18, 2014 by SurelySerious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Define "open immigration that is managed." Seems to be contradictory terms but I'm willing to be educated. Public vs private. You can't give anything to someone without first taking it from someone else but let's assume you are talking about land controlled by the Government. Are you going to force all new immigrants to move to Bureau of Land Management property? Are you sure they want to live in Nevada and Utah? Maybe Alaska? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 There should be no restrictions. And if the border was open to all but still managed, what incentive is there to trek through miles of open desert when you can come through a checkpoint legally, with no restrictions? Comprende mi amigo? By you keeping out those who you don't want in, aren't you infringing on my private property rights to sell, or rent to whomever I choose to enter into a contract with? Or as a business owner, whom I can hire to work for me? So your "right" to possibly feel crowded supersedes my rights as a property owner or business owner to run my businessour home in its best interest? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!Are you saying no one would rent or sell to an immigrant, tree? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 By you keeping out those who you don't want in, aren't you infringing on my private property rights to sell, or rent to whomever I choose to enter into a contract with? Or as a business owner, whom I can hire to work for me? So your "right" to possibly feel crowded supersedes my rights as a property owner or business owner to run my businessour home in its best interest? Because your "freedom" to enter into business, contracts, etc... with whomever can drag/bribe/sneak their way into the country infringes on my right to not be robbed/killed/raped/harassed by illegal aliens and infringes on the sovereignty of my nation to control it's borders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Yours are too, the original intent of this thread was about securing the border(s) from illegal crossings, nothing to do with legal crossings / immigration. Those who argue against merely stopping illegal crossing / immigration really are saying that other people who are not citizens of this country have special rights to violate laws that actual citizens of this country do not. BTW I specified illegal aliens, not legal immigrants. Edited May 18, 2014 by Clark Griswold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Vertigo, you're full of shit, dude. Protectionism of our assets is a valid reason to be able to regulate our borders. Right now we are unable to do so along much of our southern border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 And my whole argument has been to open immigration, thus disincentivizing illegal immigration. So that everyone who wants to immigrate can do so legally. Yet every argument against has either been of pure selfishness in the opportunities and resources here, or racist statements equating immigrants with killers and rapists. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Vertigo, you're full of shit, dude. Protectionism of our assets is a valid reason to be able to regulate our borders. Right now we are unable to do so along much of our southern border. In other words, you want to restrict another human's freedoms for your own selfish greed. So it's ok for me to stop you from coming into my city looking for a job because I'm protecting my available resources. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 The whole reason we have countries is to protect our resources. Open the resources to anyone who wants them, what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herkbum Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 This just needs to end Herkbum Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Why do you try to confuse legal and illegal immigration? You keep trying to equate the two. There is a process, I am sure it could be improved but there is a way to do it legally and it may not always allow everyone in (which in my opinion is good) but not everyone is guaranteed everything they want in life either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) And my whole argument has been to open immigration, thus disincentivizing illegal immigration. So that everyone who wants to immigrate can do so legally. Yet every argument against has either been of pure selfishness in the opportunities and resources here, or racist statements equating immigrants with killers and rapists. Better check yourself with throwing out the racist card. Not every illegal alien is someone just coming here looking for work. If you actually did the job of working down the border areas, you would know the numbers of hard-core felons that are caught coming across the border into the country. People with wants/warrants for rape, murder, sex crimes, child crimes, human and weapons smuggling, kidnapping; and the list goes on. Go to the ICE detention center in Florence, AZ and see who is being held there that were caught by BP. And that's only those who were caught. Who knows how many haven't been. That is the reason there isn't an open gate to the border nor should there be. While yes, the immigration system in this country does need some streamlining and updating, simply opening the border wholesale isn't the way to fix that problem. Holding those who hire and exploit the cheap labor illegals provide, preying on their fear of never going to the police to complain, is what needs to be done. Come down here and work the desert southwest sometime. It would blow your mind what kind of people are caught and what their backgrounds are......or even what they're currently caught in the act of doing. Until then, your exercise in pure academia is nothing more than that. Edited May 18, 2014 by MD 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 So restrict freedom because someone of your race might commit a crime. That sounds like a legit excuse. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 So restrict freedom because someone of your race might commit a crime. That sounds like a legit excuse. That's not what was said at all and you know it. But nice way to twist the argument into full retard mode. Control the borders and allow the nation to determine who it lets in and who it doesn't. Criminals who are ALREADY known criminals? No, we don't want them (well, YOU may and and I'll be happy to send them to YOUR house). Non-criminals who can be a help and good addition to the country? Allow work visas for them and make the pathway to legal citizenship easier than the muddled mess it currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 You might not have but Clark essentially did. And when I called him out on it you defended his position. Who determines what is a " good addition"? Someone now having to compete for a job with someone willing to work harder, faster and cheaper may say that person is not a " good addition" . Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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