Gun Talk

[cragspider]

What prices were they offering? I paid $570 for mine a couple weeks ago and that was on the low end of the average I've been finding. Don't know about the mil discount- I asked at Cabela's where I bought mine and they said no discount.

I price checked at Academy on fri so that I had an idea of a new price and they had the XD-45 service model for 529, or 520. At the gun show the lowest that I saw the XD45 for was 570, high as 650+ and those looked to be brand new. There were a few XD-M's and they were all 640+. But for 530 for a new XD-45 its not to bad. M2, what do you think of the compact version of the XD-45? I know that it only carries 10+1, but you can put the mag extension on it and use the full size 45 mag's. I am torn between the compact and the full service models.

[old crow]

What prices were they offering? I paid $570 for mine a couple weeks ago and that was on the low end of the average I've been finding. Don't know about the mil discount- I asked at Cabela's where I bought mine and they said no discount.

i emailed Springfield direct about a military discount. it took them about 3-weeks to email me back. i'll post the price list and list of authorized dealers on Monday

Edited March 1, 2009 by old crow

[Timbonez]

Backseat,

First, I want to say this is my personal opinion of firearms. I've read through this thread many times, and I am well aware of other members' preferences towards firearms. No one is going to be exactly the same. I am going to try and make this recommendation as unbiased as possible and put myself in your shoes.

Though often neglected, a revolver is probably the best choice for a new/inexperienced shooter. You don't have to rely on a magazine like semi-autos, which is the cause of most pistol malfunctions. A revolver is simple to shoot, manipulate, and maintain. Most people are more accurate with a revolver as well. If you buy a revolver chambered in .357 magnum you can also shoot the lighter .38 specials through them. Since you want to use this as a range gun and as one for home defense, this would be a perfect choice. You can go to the range and practice on .38 specials as well as .357 magnum, and then have it loaded in the house with .357 magnum cartridges. If you're uncomfortable with the .357 magnum round, you can always load it with .38 special +p for home defense.

On a revolver there is no manual safety that you have to manipulate (there are also several semi-autos that don't have manual safeties either). A lot of people worry about not having a manual safety, but it is preferred in a high stress situation. There have been accounts where civilians and police officers alike have forgotten to turn off the manual safety in a defensive encounter because their stress levels are through the roof. This happens to both inexperienced and experienced shooters.

I noticed some people recommended a 1911, which is a fine weapon (I own a few myself, which I sometimes conceal carry). Once the 1911 is ready to fire, it is in single action only. This provides you with a light/crisp trigger. That's fine, but again in a high stress situation a single action trigger may not be the best choice. As your adrenaline is pumping through your body and your stress level is high you are more likely to creep that finger harder on that trigger causing an accidental discharge. Before I continue, you should always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, but as those basic motor functions go out the window in a defensive situation this doesn't always happen. A double action trigger would be preferred (at least for the first shot). You don't want to accidentally shoot someone who is not a threat. A revolver always provides you with a double action trigger pull unless you manually cock the trigger, then it will fire in single action for that round. A double action trigger will be heavier than a single action, which will make your shots slightly less accurate unless you practice good trigger control, practice shooting double action at the range, and practice dry firing double action at home (practice, practice, practice). This can also be mitigated by the trigger pull itself. Companies like Smith & Wesson are well known for their smooth double action triggers on their revolvers. I never met a S&W double action I didn't like.

Another benefit of a .357 magnum revolver is your choice of ammo. Hands down they have any semi-auto beat in the number of quality ammo choices. As previously mentioned you can use either .357 magnum or any iteration of .38 special in a revolver chambered for .357 magnum. Both of these cartridges carry a plethora of differing bullet types and weights to suit your needs at the range and at home.

Although I am praising the revolver to no end here, I will say it has one huge disadvantage compared to a semi-auto, and that's ammo capacity. At best you will find revolvers chambered in .357 magnum capable of carrying 8 cartridges. Most likely you will find ones that carry 6. The only way to mitigate this is to make your shots count. In a home defense situation (i.e. close range) this is not a problem for a revolver or semi-auto for that matter.

When most people buy a gun for home defense they maybe fire it once and then leave it loaded under the bed, in a drawer, or in a closet usually never to be fired again. I'm not saying this is going to be you, but the simplicity and design of a revolver is such that if this is what you end up doing there is really no skill needed to use a revolver. Your biggest priorities when choosing a handgun, whether is be a semi-auto or revolver should be reliability first and ease of use second. Don't choose a gun based on it's caliber (seems ironic since I've been pushing .357 magnum, huh?). As long as you do your part when shooting the gun (i.e. placing relatively accurate shots on target) the gun will do it's part. Here are some links to different manufacturers of good revolvers.

Taurus Model 66 - .357 Magnum, 7 shot

S&W Model 619 - .357 Magnum, 7 shot

Ruger GP100 - .357 Magnum, 6 shot

These are just a few models offered by those companies. I used to own the 4" barrel Ruger GP100, but I gave that to my brother as a Christmas gift. All my other revolvers are Smith & Wessons: Model 19 and Model 27 (both .357 Magnum), Model 29 (.44 Magnum, this is Dirty Harry's gun), Model 1917 (.45 ACP). I also have an old Russian Nagant revolver. I keep the .44 magnum loaded with a lighter defense load under my bed, and I conceal carry the Model 19 most of the time (sometimes I will carry one of my semi-autos). I hope this helped you somewhat, and wish you luck in finding the gun that suits your needs whether it's a semi-auto or revolver.

[M2]

M2, what do you think of the compact version of the XD-45? I know that it only carries 10+1, but you can put the mag extension on it and use the full size 45 mag's. I am torn between the compact and the full service models.

Personally, I don't like the compact version over the full-sized XD. Why? Well, for one, as you mentioned, I don't like the decreased capacity the shorter magazine provides. Secondly, while you can use a full-sized magazine in one with an extension, I have found those tend to pinch during reloads and that can be a distraction. Lastly, I have no problems concealing the full-sized XD, even in short and t-shirts it is easy to hide with an IWB holster. But if you think that a mere inch or so off the grip is going to make that much of a difference when carrying concealed that you would carry less rounds because of it, then the Compact should be your choice.

Outside of that, the two shoot the same; but I prefer a Service model over a Tactical, the latter just feels nose-heavy to me; or maybe it's just the Service feels extremely well balanced in my hand.

Cheers! M2

p.s.

Timbonez

I am also a fan of revolvers, as I previously mentioned I am in the hunt for a Webley in .455; but there are several erroneous or omitted points in your argument. For one, most modern polymer semi-automatics are about as reliable as revolvers. As a matter of fact, my most unreliable pistol is a .38 revolver. You may note I mentioned earlier my dislike for small M1911s for self-defense. I think the reduced size impacts their reliability somewhat, as it is not what JMB intended. Even the full-sized M1911s can be a little unreliable, especially when using SD ammo. But the XD and Glocks are near perfect in their performance, and the old argument that revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos is just that...old!

Secondly, it is definitely harder to conceal a revolver than a semi-auto, simply due to design. And where some may think that the lack of a safety would be an advantage, it can also be a disadvantage. It is much easier to AD a revolver than a semi-auto. And the XD series, my favorite semi-autos, have natural safeties meaning the second you grip it and pull the trigger, all safeties are off. The do not require an additional action, which is why they are my preferred weapon of choice.

Lastly, the difference in capacity between a revolver and a semi-auto is significant. In some cases, we are talking about twice as many rounds. And reloads are slower and harder for revolvers for the average shooter.

But don't just take my opinion, go out and look at what law enforcement, government and the military use these days. Do you see many revolvers? No. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why...

[Timbonez]

M2,

I agree with you that there is a reason that police forces switched to semi-autos over revolvers, and it's capacity. But that is a duty weapon, not a conceal carry or home defense weapon. In fact, there are plenty of officers who carry a revolver as a back up gun on duty or for self defense off duty. Cop Shoots Alleged Carjacker

Once you start talking about concealed carry things start to get smaller and capacity starts to drop, even in the semi-auto world. I guarantee that those people who buy a larger handgun for conceal carry are less inclined to carry it than someone who buys a smaller handgun for conceal carry. Most won't like the weight. I don't find weight to be an issue, and it appears you don't either. We're the exception, not the rule. The truth of the matter is those who buy smaller guns will carry them with greater frequency because of the weight. Whenever I go my local gun shops or gun show the smaller guns are almost always gone ( Kel-Tec P3AT, Bersa Thunder, Walther PPK, etc.) They're small, light and easily concealed. However, they have diminished capacity and usually never fire anything bigger than a .380 (which is weaker than .38 special +p). Snub nose revolvers are also usually bought up quickly. The point is moot about carrying a revolver concealed, because people have been doing it since before semi-autos became overwhelmingly popular. J framed revolvers are just as easy to conceal (and there are still plenty of off duty cops who do) as sub-compact guns and easier to conceal than the larger guns you and I choose to carry. But that doesn't really matter since Backseat wasn't looking for a conceal carry gun.

You mentioned that polymer framed pistols are about as reliable as a revolver. While this is wholly true, they still rely on a magazine to feed them ammunition and magazines are the biggest cause for a failure in a semi-auto. I'm not saying they will always fail, but I am saying I've seen Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, H&Ks, Berettas, Bersas, Kel-Tecs, Kahrs and Sigs fail. I have yet to see a revolver fail. I'm not saying it never happens or will never happen, I just haven't seen it yet. In other words, agree to disagree on this subject.

Explain to me how it is easier to have an AD with a revolver over any DAO semi? Most "plastic" DAO semi-autos have a relatively light DA trigger pull and no safety compared to a revolver's DA. Glock considers that little piece of plastic on their trigger a safety, but it's totally superfluous. ADs happen to those who use a revolver or semi-auto, it isn't any easier to have one on a revolver. Your finger shouldn't be on the trigger anyway until you're ready to fire.

I carry a S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum concealed more so than any other handgun that I have. It's a medium frame (K frame) and mine has a 2.5" barrel. I use 158gr .357 loads moving at around 1,100 fps out of that short barrel. I have full confidence in that gun and in no way would consider myself undergunned. Anyway, the most important thing is knowing your weapon, practicing on it, and having confidence in it.

Also, I want you to know that I respect your opinions on this matter. They won't change my thinking on the subject, and I wouldn't expect mine to change yours, but it's nice to see differing points of view.

I know you are looking for a Webley in .455 and maybe this one on GunBroker might be what you want. Webley

[Hacker]

That's fine, but again in a high stress situation a single action trigger may not be the best choice. As your adrenaline is pumping through your body and your stress level is high you are more likely to creep that finger harder on that trigger causing an accidental discharge.

As someone who CCWs, I'm surprised you would make this statement.

1) If your weapon is drawn and pointed at something, you have all ready accepted the consequences of killing whatever is under your sights. It is no longer an "accidental discharge" at that point.

2) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Pretty simple.

[Timbonez]

1) If your weapon is drawn and pointed at something, you have all ready accepted the consequences of killing whatever is under your sights. It is no longer an "accidental discharge" at that point.

I will have accepted the consequences of "stopping the threat" once the first bullet leaves my gun. Most of the time just showing the weapon will stop a bad guy, but don't let that lead you to think I have no qualms with using a gun on another human being in a self defense situation. Sources show (Kleck, FBI, Criminal Journals) that 92% of citizens who simply show or fire a warning shot with their firearm stops the threat. That's the point of having a CCW and carrying a gun. You are going to stop the threat whether it be without bloodshed by showing a weapon to filling the BG's chest with holes.

2) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Pretty simple.

I agree. I realize I forgot to mention that in my recommendation to Backseat, but I did say it when I was replying to M2's post.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into an even bigger argument. I've said what I wanted to say. You can reply how you see fit, but I'm just going to go back to enjoying this thread. By the way, what guns do you have?

[Hacker]

I will have accepted the consequences of "stopping the threat" once the first bullet leaves my gun. Most of the time just showing the weapon will stop a bad guy, but don't let that lead you to think I have no qualms with using a gun on another human being in a self defense situation. Sources show (Kleck, FBI, Criminal Journals) that 92% of citizens who simply show or fire a warning shot with their firearm stops the threat. That's the point of having a CCW and carrying a gun. You are going to stop the threat whether it be without bloodshed by showing a weapon to filling the BG's chest with holes.

I completely 100% disagree. Yes, it is about stopping the threat and using as many tools and techniques as you can to avoid killing another person while stopping harm to yourself.

All of that stops as soon as you make the decision to draw.

As soon as you clear leather, you have all ready made the decision to pull the trigger. Either you intend to kill and you draw, or you do something else that does not involve pulling out your CCW. There are no brandishes, no warning shots, or other intermediate steps along the way. I don't know of a credible and accepted self-defense firearm instruction theory/method that teaches brandishing or warning shots or the like as steps to take in a self defense situation. If it is serious enough that you are drawing, it is serious enough for you to pull the trigger.

This is the same category as decisions in aviation like aborting a takeoff, pulling the ejection handles, etc. It is binary.

If you do not intend to kill that other person, then you should not be breaking leather.

Now...that's not to say that if you draw and the situation is stopped without you pulling the trigger that you HAVE TO. Of course that's not true.

You, however, set up a scenario in your post where someone was pointing a loaded 1911 at someone else and said that an "accidental discharge" would be the result if an adrenaline-charged twitch of the finger pressed the 5-6# pull of the single action trigger. That's not an accidental discharge...no more than the opening of the parachute is "accidental" after pulling the ejection handles.

You don't draw your weapon and point it at someone if you do not fully intend to kill them. It is that simple.

By the way, what guns do you have?

Pistols: several 1911s by various makers, B92FS, a couple Star 9mms, Smith and Colt revolvers

Rifles: Several Garands, several Carbines, SKSs, 1903, 1903A3, AR-7, M1917

EDIT: Here are some of the rifles:

...and here is one of the Stars and one of the 1911s

Edited March 1, 2009 by Hacker

[Guest Fogo]

I bought a snub nose .38 revolver as my very first gun and it was my bedside defense piece for a while. My opinion was that it was easy to work and would get the job done, and be something that can be in the glove compartment in the car.

When I got my XD though; the .38 went by the wayside. It now sits in a different part of my house should an intruder ever catch me off guard; but after firing the XD once; it without a doubt became my HD weapon. (Soon enough its hopefully a shotgun.)

I have the tactical XD however; and its nearly impossible to conceal. The snub .38 though fits perfectly into a uncle Mike's pocket holster and looks like I've just got a cell phone in there or something. At the end of the day though; I'm still searching for a good price on a compact XD or Glock 19 as I just can't deny that I'd rather be carrying that than the revolver.

[Boxhead]

I don't know of a credible and accepted self-defense firearm instruction theory/method that teaches brandishing or warning shots or the like as steps to take in a self defense situation.

x2, they actaully teach that brandishing is illegal in many states and NEVER to do it. ("they"=NRA)

Totally seperate...if you have a Glock, get one of these....I tested them out last weekend...they are the best thing you can do to your Glock.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Boxhead

[Timbonez]

If you do not intend to kill that other person, then you should not be breaking leather.

Now...that's not to say that if you draw and the situation is stopped without you pulling the trigger that you HAVE TO. Of course that's not true.

This is exactly what I meant. If I have to draw I intend to use it, but if the BG decides to surrender as I'm bringing a gun to bear on him, I see no point in shooting him. I apologize if I made it sound like I would just show the gun to scare someone, and I wouldn't waste ammo on warning shots anyway.

That's a nice collection you have there. I have something like XX different firearms, all in separate pictures, so I'll refrain from posting them all so as not to take up a ton of space.

Edit: Removed my list of firearms.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Timbonez

[Guest AirGuardian]

Just adopted another outcast who was hanging out by the vault. Needed a 9mm to plink with and CC if needed so I paid $429 for the Glock 19 LE/Mil Special... Not a bad deal at all. 15+1 and cheaper for practice shooting, about the smallest I can go grip wise for a mid-compact or less comfortably.

Kinda costly for the .45 shooting a bit, so I'm looking forward to pushing more volume with the 9mm.

AG

[Guest Fogo]

Just adopted another outcast who was hanging out by the vault. Needed a 9mm to plink with and CC if needed so I paid $429 for the Glock 19 LE/Mil Special... Not a bad deal at all. 15+1 and cheaper for practice shooting, about the smallest I can go grip wise for a mid-compact or less comfortably.

Kinda costly for the .45 shooting a bit, so I'm looking forward to pushing more volume with the 9mm.

AG

Am I correct to assume you need to find a LE dealer to nab the discount? I can never seem to find a list of authorized dealers, not here in GA at least.

Let us know how you like that 19; I'm interested in one myself.

[Guest zookrider]

Fogo,

Some Glock dealers are specially authorized LE/Mil dealers- usually only one in a fairly large region. They can get the non-excise guns direct from Glock and sell a 17/19/22/23/26/27/31/32/33 for about $409 with 3 mags. I say that price because I've seen exactly that in two places.

However, other dealers can get the LE/Mil guns through their normal channels without the excise tax paid on them and with the extra mag at what's still a significant discount. Under $500 is reasonable for a small frame.

Oh, and the Glock 19 is the world's most perfect gun. It's small enough to conceal comfortably, big enough to shoot an IPSC match with, has as much mag capacity as a much bigger and heavier M9, is accurate, easy to work on, and even though it's nearly indestructable (in normal use, factory loads, etc.), it's also cheap enough to be nearly disposable and shoots cheap ammo. It's like the Remington 870 of handguns.

And the Hi Points- they run and the company puts a no-joke lifetime guarantee on them. They're ugly, heavy, cheaply made, and won't feed hollowpoint ammo reliably. They'll shoot FMJ pretty accurately until you run out of money. If you break one, even through straight-up abuse, the company will fix/replace it. Not bad for $150 new in box.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Looking forward to actually shooting MINE,

But I did enjoy the Glock 17 9mm/22 .40cal/23 ..40cal (same size as my 19, but bigger cal) and 21 .45cal...

The mini version sub-compacts were too small, even with the finger clip extender...

19 Turned out to be the choice. The .45 I already have in H&K, very nice weapon, but too big for CC.

Any .40 was nearing the cost to shoot the .45, so why not just get another .45... I could be wrong, but the .45 felt smoother - less recoil than both the .40's??? Better weighted slide perhaps...?

Overall, 9mm costs much less to shoot, 15+1 clips, and smaller than normal size handguns with a grip that fits perfect for the avg joe... Of course I couldn't pass up a near $400 Glock with the same type of Poly Barrels as H&K. Best choice all around for my use.

I am still in the market for the pricey H&K P2000 357 version for everday CC for more punch power along with the Glock 19 in the car for backup/practice. Thank God for Gunslinger Law here in the Deep South, MS.

You might ask, why not a compact .45. It's all personal - Love the .45, but I'm just a bit more accurate with the 9 or 357 than with the compact .45s, and the biggest thing is grip feel and weight gains for the .45 are significant for CC purposes. My full size .45 USP rocks like no other for me, I just wish I could fold it in half and cut off 10 or more ounces.

AG.

[Gas Man]

Just adopted another outcast who was hanging out by the vault. Needed a 9mm to plink with and CC if needed so I paid $429 for the Glock 19 LE/Mil Special... Not a bad deal at all. 15+1 and cheaper for practice shooting, about the smallest I can go grip wise for a mid-compact or less comfortably.

Kinda costly for the .45 shooting a bit, so I'm looking forward to pushing more volume with the 9mm.

AG

http://www.hogueinc.com/getgrip/merchant.i...=114&step=4

I love these grips!! Spent the $10 on one and it will make a huge difference for the smaller grips.

[Guest Cap-10]

I'm waiting for Springfield to make the 45 ACP in the new XD(M) format......can't wait!

Cap-10

[slacker]

1st- 60 minutes is hinting around an US AWB right now for mexico's drug war. GMAFB!

2nd - Academy Sports advertised a SA dark earth XD 45 for $499 in the Sunday paper- Is that pretty good- I'm not sure I could get past the turd color.

3- Yugo SKS w/ matching #s in good shape w/ about 20 rounds down the barrel- is $350 descent. I knew I should have bought a few last year, now it seems every gun is up in price.

edit 4 spelin

Edited March 2, 2009 by slacker

[Guest JollyFlight21]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123578458503498487.html

Saw this on Wall Street Journal's page. I hope this hasn't been posted yet.

By JOEL MILLMAN

PHOENIX -- This week, an Arizona gun shop goes on trial in state court in what law-enforcement officials are calling a landmark case against gun dealers who sell weapons that end up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, fueling horrific violence south of the border that killed more than 6,000 people last year.

X-Caliber Guns LLC, is accused of knowingly selling hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47s, to buyers who were posing as fronts for Mexican drug gangs. The gun store's owner, 47-year-old George Iknadosian, has maintained his innocence in court filings.

While the U.S. has long pressed Mexico to stop the flow of illegal drugs such as cocaine from crossing the border heading north, Mexico has complained that the U.S. doesn't stop the flow of guns heading south. Mexican and U.S. officials estimate that more than 90% of the weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the U.S.

View Full Image

Associated Press

A forensic worker takes away the body of a dead police officer after unknown gunmen opened fire on a police vehicle in the border city of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, on Saturday. Mexican and U.S. officials estimate that more than 90% of weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the U.S.

Consider what happened last year in the Mexican border city of Nogales. The chief of the Sonora state anti-drug unit, Juan Manuel Pavón, was murdered by cartel hit men, just hours after attending a U.S. seminar on how to resist the tide of American firearms surging into Mexico. Several weapons linked to the crime traced back to X-Caliber Guns.

"The three highest priorities for me in terms of U.S. cooperation in the drugs war are these: guns, guns, guns," Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora said in a recent interview with The Wall Street Journal. "These drug groups intimidate society and government because of their firepower. And their firepower comes from the U.S."

No one knows how many weapons cross the border into Mexico each year. Unlike contraband drugs, which are consumed, contraband guns "remain in circulation until they are captured," says Terry Goddard, the Arizona Attorney General bringing the case against X-Caliber Guns.

The number of U.S. guns in Mexico is growing. The Justice Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, says more than 7,700 guns sold in America were traced to Mexico in the fiscal year ending last September. That's twice the 3,300 recorded the previous year and more than triple the 2,100 traced the year before that.

U.S. officials acknowledge that U.S. gun laws are partly to blame. The 1994 ban on the sale of assault weapons like AK-47s in the U.S. led to a decrease of such weapons south of the border. But the ban expired in 2004, and the numbers in Mexico spiked. Last week, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said the Obama administration would seek to reinstate the ban. Contributing to the problem is the fact that Mexico's customs control is famously weak, and authorities rarely check inbound traffic from the U.S.

Meanwhile, Mexican drug gangs are stocking up on deadlier weapons. ATF officials say they have registered more purchases of high-powered FN Herstal rifles and pistols -- the Belgian-made weapon called "matapolicias" in Mexico, or "cop killers," for their ability to fire through body armor. Such items are sold in hundreds of Arizona gun shops, or by private owners advertising online.

Although U.S. gun laws generally forbid the sale of weapons to noncitizens, the X-Caliber case shows how Mexican purchasers used intermediaries -- or "straw buyers" -- to flout the rules.

The scheme, according to the prosecution, was simple: The buyers, usually 19- to 22-year-old U.S. citizens with no police record, declared that the firearm was for personal use, but instead passed it along to an associate of a Mexican cartel. The buyer filled out a standard form used by the ATF to track firearms. Lying on the form is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. But ATF agents here say buyers in the X-Caliber case were paid a fee to run that risk -- up to $100 on each transaction.

Gun shops generally rely on ATF recordkeeping to check them before selling to the wrong buyer. Ken Logan, a manager at the Shooters World gun store in Phoenix says the ATF form, once approved after being checked against a national data base, relieves the store of responsibility. "The ATF says 'yea' or 'nay,' on who I can sell a gun to," he says.

Gun stores run the risk of lawsuits if they're deemed to be "profiling" -- refusing to sell guns to young Latinos, for instance. Mr. Logan concedes he has seen men enter gun stores, point out to a girlfriend what weapon they should buy, and leave. The girlfriend fills out the form, attesting the firearm is for her personal use.

Getting bullets is even easier. Gun dealers here must report anyone purchasing more than one handgun during a single five-day period, but there is no restriction on ammunition. Last Christmas Eve, salesmen at Cabela's Sporting Goods store in Phoenix were surprised when two Hispanic men bought 24,000 rounds of 5.7 caliber bullets -- the same caliber used in FN "cop killers." They paid in cash -- more than $10,000. When the buyers were seen loading their purchase into a car with Mexican license plates, store managers summoned police. Authorities found 12 FN rifles and three "cop killer" handguns.

Police arrested the buyers, but only because they were foreign nationals, thus forbidden from possessing arms in the U.S.

The murder of Mr. Pavón last year illustrates how Arizona's gun-friendly culture contributes to mayhem in Mexico. Last October, the men under Mr. Pavón's command fought gangs of narco-pistoleros in gun battles across the state. On October 24, a caravan of heavily armed assassins descended on Nogales, only to be repelled, leaving 10 gunmen dead. A week later, they attacked a police substation about a mile from the U.S. border crossing.

Days later, Mr. Pavón was in Arizona for consultations with U.S. officials.

At a farewell picnic at a federal shooting range in Tucson, the Mexican policeman was invited to test fire a powerful American weapon that has been surfacing lately in the narco-gangs' arsenals: the 50 caliber Barrett rifle, powerful enough to pierce a tank's armor.

"We had a shootout," recalls Mr. Newell, the ATF agent. "He won."

The following night, Commander Pavón was ambushed as he entered a Nogales hotel.

—José de Córdoba contributed to this article.

[M2]

3- Yugo SKS w/ matching #s in good shape w/ about 20 rounds down the barrel- is $350 descent. I knew I should have bought a few last year, now it seems every gun is up in price.

Figuring they were $150 or less a few months ago, that sounds about right...

Cheers! M2

[Guest Fogo]

I've been reading and posting on this thread for a while; and after a search as well, can't remember this coming up.

I'll be flying home to Illinois in May; but driving back to move some things to our home in Georgia. My wife will probably say to just "make due" but I do not want to make that 12 hour drive back without my weapon in the vehicle. I was wondering if anyone has ever flown with a firearm.

Both Airtran and the TSA seem to be on the same page of having it declared, unloaded, and then in a locked case. It seems to become a little more ambigious though with ammo. My real question though is how rules apply aside from that.

I have a Georgia carry permit; so I am not concerned about leaving Atlanta; but I will then be ending up in the lovely gun un-friendly state of Illinois (thankfully not Chicago). Would I be right to assume that an unloaded gun in a locked case is kosher, even in a non carry state?

Anyone done this much? Part of me just wants to avoid the hassle and chance of my bag being lost along with my pistol; but I also want to have it with for the drive back.

Thanks guys.

[Butters]

I've been reading and posting on this thread for a while; and after a search as well, can't remember this coming up.

I'll be flying home to Illinois in May; but driving back to move some things to our home in Georgia. My wife will probably say to just "make due" but I do not want to make that 12 hour drive back without my weapon in the vehicle. I was wondering if anyone has ever flown with a firearm.

Both Airtran and the TSA seem to be on the same page of having it declared, unloaded, and then in a locked case. It seems to become a little more ambigious though with ammo. My real question though is how rules apply aside from that.

I have a Georgia carry permit; so I am not concerned about leaving Atlanta; but I will then be ending up in the lovely gun un-friendly state of Illinois (thankfully not Chicago). Would I be right to assume that an unloaded gun in a locked case is kosher, even in a non carry state?

Anyone done this much? Part of me just wants to avoid the hassle and chance of my bag being lost along with my pistol; but I also want to have it with for the drive back.

Thanks guys.

I have flow with a gun several times.

No ammunition at all. You have to buy or borrow some when you arrive. Might be hard to buy right now.

You can carry a personal handgun in your car in any state unloaded in a locked case. Why because the only way they can find it is with a search warrant. They are unlikely to get that if you do not kill anyone with said gun. Still would not bring the gun to NY though, they are A-Holes.

[M2]

Fogo

I flew from Florida to Texas with guns before I even had my license. It is exactly as you stated, unloaded and locked in a solid container within your luggage. Just tell them when you check in, they will inspect the weapon(s) to ensure they are in compliance, then you get a little card that goes in on top of the container and that's it. It is really easy but allot for an additional 20-30 minutes at the airport. It probably won't take that long, but it is better just in case.

Oh, and I carried ammo within the container but I believe that may not always be the case.

As for transporting without a license, I think it is the same in most states that a locked, unloaded weapon is legal. Back before Texas had reciprocity with Alabama, whenever we drove to Florida I would have to stop before we crossed the state line, unload and lock my handgun in the trunk of the car. Then once we got to into Florida, I dug it out and reloaded it again. Just check the law in Illinois, this looks like a good place to start. This is what the state police say...

How can I legally transport a firearm on my person or in my vehicle?

There is more than one way to legally transport a firearm. However, in order to be in compliance with all statutes, it is recommended all firearms be transported:

1. Unloaded,

2. Enclosed in a case and,

3. By persons who have a valid FOID card.

I know there's be discussion on the FOID card previously, and that same web site has more info such as non-residents and what to do when you pass through a community with an ordinance that prohibits firearms or handguns.

Hope that helps, and don't stay in Illinois too long!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Fogo]

Yeah, the Illinois FOID issue is ridiculous. Took me 2 months to get mine; and it only entitles me to buying ammo and buying a gun with a 3 day waiting period. Meanwhile, I got my GA carry permit in 3 days. Luckily I don't live in IL anymore.

Anyhow; thanks as always for the advice guys.

[old crow]

Here's the list of Springfield LE/Military prices and the list of authorized dealers. Enjoy.

2009_Officer_Price_List.pdf

LE_Distributor_Directory.doc