joe1234

that's why they were kind enough to give you hostile fire pay/imminent danger pay

Your concept of economics is weird. If you have a cheap source of labor that is fulfilling needs and winning in competition with higher paid legal sources, then that is the free market at work. If the black market fulfills things the legal market cannot, then, like air and water, people will seek the path of least resistance. As it stands, people choose to employ millions upon millions of illegal immigrants despite your moral objections. This is America, and money talks -- people will flock to the cheaper option given a similar result/product. IMO, you simply haven't made the case to justify crushing the federal budget with even more expense just to fix this problem with solutions that most likely won't work. Nothing short of a literal genocide on the Rio Grande will fix the problem. Vertigo's suggestions just seem far more plausible.

I must say that I agree with the libertarian wing here, for all the bullshit people spew about competition and the free market, when their own economic security is threatened, they become protectionist as hell. It's like "the free market is best as long as everyone but me suffers the drawbacks". This, on a forum full of people who have jobs and extremely specialized skill sets that no poor immigrant could ever dream to have without a miracle. Simply put, immigrants make it cheaper to live in the states. Not only that, but they make our lives more productive. Time is money, and I am far more productive doing my highly paid job I have been trained for, than I am at doing unpaid manual labor tasks. So instead, I employ illegal immigrants to do the things I don't want to do, either directly, (like housekeeping, gardening, etc), or indirectly (buying their fruit, vegetables, purchasing goods/services from firms that hire illegals). I can take that money and spend it on things like services, consumer goods, or financial instruments, which is where the bulk of our economy is really geared towards. I want to create jobs for Americans just as much as the next guy, but creating shitty minimum wage work doesn't help us as a nation. It ironically makes us more likely to backslide into socialism, once wage workers realize that relying on the government is by far their best option. Illegal immigration is a fucking tidal wave of human effort and desperation over an impossibly long stretch of land. Nobody is going to pay for the military to patrol the border. Politicians will promise it and then never do it because it's fucking retarded, and it gets cheap, easy votes from people too naive and ignorant to know what is going on. Even if you had the manpower to detect border crossers, there's not enough manpower to round up every one of them, and it costs an illegal nothing to get across (except maybe paying a coyote), and it costs us far more to stop them. Which means they'll just try again in a couple days. A fence is just a dumb, ineffective waste of time and money. It makes for a good talking point to get cheap political support, though. The only realistic, feasible solution is to get out ahead of this thing and harness it for our economic advantage. Let the free market rule on this one.

I'm feeling generous today, so allow me to give you a crash course in logic and reasoning. Clark said this: He literally just asked if any OCONUS mission takes precedence over the border. You know, are OCONUS missions like keeping Iran from getting the bomb, preventing another 9/11, making sure North Korea doesn't start World War 3, shit like that which are clearly much more existential threats against American lives...are those things more important than patrolling a border with Mexico. I said: Because after all, how could someone be in the military for more than 5 minutes without understanding the threats that are out there, and think that it's less important than playing catch and release with Mexican immigrants. You replied with this gem: See, you just made a fucking strawman because you want me to explain a position that I never made in the first place: that protecting other countries is more important than protecting America. I said (paraphrased) that OCONUS missions were more important than playing border patrol, but for some reason, this is equivalent to "protecting other countries". Incorrect, it means that in order to protect this country from bigger threats, we have to do things OCONUS now and then. You realize that we have 2 states and multiple territories that are OCONUS, right? You realize that we have missions that protect America that take place not within the contintental borders? And again you double down on your ignorance: There, you did it again, you immediately jumped to "protecting other countries". No, OCONUS means "outside the continental US". I said that OCONUS missions are more important than border patrol. Among those OCONUS missions are missions that directly protect Americans from much greater threats than Mexico could ever throw at us. But somehow you automatically equivocate all OCONUS missions to protecting other countries without allowing anything else. How do I know this? Because you just said it, right there. You gave an either/or choice, either OCONUS missions are important, or protecting our own country is important. If it sounds like I'm over-explaining this, then I am because reasoning is clearly not your strong suit. If a spec ops unit takes down a terrorist cell in the Middle East planning another 9/11, that is somehow, according to you, protecting other countries over protecting our own country. If the Imperial Japanese Navy bombs Pearl Harbor and we declare war, according to your shitty logic, that is protecting other countries over the U.S. despite the fact that Hawaii is literally the U.S, but because it's not CONUS, then it isn't protecting America. Get it now? I'm not even going to bother explaining how defense treaties, or protecting other countries, actually also protects America, because we're getting into some fairly advanced foreign policy discussion that I'm not sure your "not in my backyard" mind could handle. This is actually a logical position to take, although I still disagree that the illegal immigrant problem requires a military solution (by the way hispeed, this is the "he didn't say any of that" part right here). If you want to militarize the CBP further and increase their budget, then go hog wild. But I honestly don't like the idea of blurring the lines between military and civilian law enforcement. I see nations all around the world with those blurred lines and it usually doesn't turn out pretty. See, this isn't a strawman argument because you stated this logic twice. And now that it sounds fucking absurd, you're backpedaling. Let's all just de-escalate here. You stop posting, and I'll stop pointing out how wrong you are. Let the thread get back on track.

Do you realize that you're saying any mission outside the CONUS couldn't possibly protect America? You just completely invalidated our participation in WW2 and OEF. Think about that for a second.

Nice job with the strawman. Actually, I said that our OCONUS missions are more important than deploying the military to patrol the Mexican border. You can't comprehend why international military exercises and cooperation, enforcing freedom of navigation on the high seas, enforcing mutual treaties, fighting and deterring terrorism, and using the threat of implied force and hard power as a deterrent to foreign aggression is an actual thing that the military should be most concerned with? You seriously, as a college educated person and a commissioned officer, don't understand that border patrol is domestic law enforcement, and that the military shouldn't be used for that purpose, because there is a lot more serious shit that we should be concerned with? I expect that from some random 19 year old A1C, but an officer with years of experience lacking that perspective is baffling. The fact that multiple officers on this message board agree is a downright fucking sad indictment of our military.

Uh....yes? I would hope a military man, especially an officer, would understand that more than anyone.

SA isn't confined to just airplanes. I'm saying he has low SA in general, which as many have alluded to in this forum, seems to be an important requirement for flying an airplane. It stands to reason a person with low general SA would be dangerous behind the controls of an airplane, just as he would behind the controls of a space shuttle, a train, a bus, or other big things that could crash and kill people.

If you have a question specifically for me, please PM instead of derailing the thread.

How in the hell did you manage to browse this forum and completely miss all the threads of people bitching and moaning about all of the problems in the active duty AF, and how so many people want to get out and go to the guard (or get out altogether and get a 100k/yr civilian job). There's a RIF thread with like 2000+ replies of people bitching about not being let out fast enough. If your SA is that low, God help us all of you get the controls of an airplane.

It's sad to see so many people get their souls ripped out just when they thought they were free. This is why I'm planning on serving out my entire ADSC and fully expecting a 365 somewhere near the end. Call it a defense mechanism, but I try not to set my expectations much higher than rock bottom for these things. As long as dudes keep staying in and taking the bonus, nothing will ever change. That spreadsheet is going to stay green no matter how many guys you know start to drop papers. Some general can just revise the manning documents/crew ratios, and make it green again. I don't mean to sound so negative, but we have zero leverage here. Honestly, it just makes more sense to RIF the guys who do have leverage (nonrated without ADSC, or rated bonus non-takers) to get the numbers down, protect who they need to fill senior billets (your #1 stratted/SOS DG/golden boy rising star types) and just fuck everyone else as hard as they can who is locked into an ADSC, especially prior enlisted pilots or late to rate. Man, this all sounds really negative, but it is the most logical course of action for AFPC. No matter how many times they throw the force under the bus, there will always be guys around willing to accept it. It's called moral hazard.

We sugarcoat it because people tend to be extremely insecure about their relative status. It's the same way somewhat rich people are insecure about their incomes and envy the super rich, instead of being content with what they have. I'm sure there are enlisted guys who wish they were officers who wish they were aircrew who wish they were pilots who wish they were CAF pilots who wish they were fighter pilots who wish they were F-22 pilots who wish they were IP's who wish they were WIC grads. I just really think it comes down to personality. Some people are content with simply living their own lives and don't care about the pecking order, and some people are insecure and obsessed with it (and similarly treat people they perceive to be below them like dirt). I truly do feel sorry for the latter.

I'd say a lot of that also has to do with the fact that a decent crew can carry a weak AC. You can't rely on a WSO to just hold a fighter pilot's hand through every single sortie. Sending that cross flow guy on a 30 day trip around the world with a crew of newbs is a disaster waiting to happen. Either way, this all sounds like a great justification to stop-loss 11F's indefinitely while offering VSP/TERA to 11M's.

I'm sure they'll be okay without the money. Probably shouldn't complain about how uncomfortable your life raft is when you escape from the Titanic.

I just want to point out that Crimea is just right across the sea from that new transit hub that we're apparently leasing from Romania to take the place of Manas.

This is probably the standard commander's thought process when someone has the audacity to not give 40 years of their life to bah gawd the most wonderful job in the history of mankind. It's as if people get downright offended that someone doesn't want to be exactly like them. Now that I think about it, the things commanders tell people getting out is strikingly similar to what wife beaters tell their abused spouses. "Don't you dare leave! You're nothing without me! You'll be sorry!" Interesting,

You know, I think there is a much more sinister consequence to this entire debacle. It's the amazing lack of credibility that has been demonstrated by senior leaders in the Air Force. With so much flip-flopping, doublespeak, faith-breaking, retractions, and "corrections" that have gone on with this sort of thing, there is simply no fucking way I can ever take a GO at their word. When AFPC or a GO addresses the force, my mind basically shuts off until they are done because I can't bring myself to believe a single word they say. They claim that people are their greatest asset, and then cut all their people. They RIF majors who should have been able to finish their 20. They say you're eligible to get out early and then deny you or make you magically ineligible. Then a GO says if you're ineligible for early out you can't get RIFed, and then will probably go back on his word on that one too. They say you need an AAD or you'll get thrown out. Now they say you don't need one. Then they essentially make the UPT ADSC and the bonus a one-way contract without giving you a shred of life stability. The problem isn't that I might get force shaped or RIF'd or what have you. The problem is that everyone in a position of authority constantly fucking lies to us regarding everything. Sorry, I can't put Service Before Self when the Service is actively trying to fuck me in the ass every chance it gets because I "didn't read the fine print". But I'm sure their solution to this is to come up with another bullshit creed, vision, vector, or mission statement (or whatever their shitty U of Phoenix MBA told them to do). And every new generation of officers comes in and sees how the older gen got fucked, and they grow up cynical from the start. Even I know this is a recipe for disaster. The sad thing is that the top officer who has absolute supreme control over the AF can't even fix it. It's like the entire service is so entrenched in a river of shit that nobody can ever hope to pull it out.

Wow you are really taking this cut pretty hard, aren't you?

As a common courtesy, just wanted to let you know that you come off as massively insecure when you post in this thread.

I doubt that. Air Force pilots have proven time and again that they will take a monumental amount of shit from the Air Force before caving. The military has three things going for it: 1) the patriotism/honor thing with people who wrap themselves in the flag or get most of their sense of purpose from their military service. after all, you should just play the game, make rank, and then change things. those people who get out are quitters, and you're not a quitter. you're an honorable Air Force officer and high flying aviator with the ability to make a lasting impact on the world! 2) the segregation of military people from the outside world -- military people are surrounded by other military people constantly, which breeds a risk averse attitude when it comes to changing careers. if all your college buddies, friends, wife's friends, and kid's friends are in the military cocoon, then you naturally start to think of the mil world/civ world as "us" and "them". a lot of people are scared of leaving their tribe and becoming one of "them". better the devil you know, am I right? 3) a lot of people seem to have it in their head that NOT getting a retirement check will leave you destitute forever. that, if you do 12 years, then pack it in for the long haul because you're over halfway there! so what if you get a couple of shitty assignments, 365s or jobs that you hate doing. you dont want to waste all that time you put in when that check is yours for the taking, you just need to endure the pain of it all! Anyway, that's my personal theory as to why AF pilots will eat shit from big blue and then ask for seconds. Most guys will bitch constantly about how everyone is leaving, and they're totally gonna vote with their feet too, and Big Blue will be sorry they lost so much amazing talent, hoping that someone important notices and gives a concession or two. Pilots keep hoping other guys get out, so they can stay and reap the benefits of things changing for the better. But the ACP take rate stays high, the gambit fails, and the pilots go back to eating shit again. All the while, General Chang smirks smugly, his predictions affirmed, as he updates the spreadsheets from red to green for the next A1 staff briefing.

My favorite is how commanders will go out of their way and move mountains to keep mil-mil together, but if you're a single guy? Well then fuck you, you get whatever the system gives you, you expendable single piece of shit, have fun in Clovis/Altus/MidwestSACBase playing with yourself. I'm not saying it's not frustrating being mil-mil, but bitching about your petty troubles will probably alienate everyone else.

Well, most military members don't ever pull down a retirement, either. Personally, I have no vested interest in what happens to military retirement, so I can understand why others don't care either.

As far as I know, the RIF separation dates are 31 Dec, which leads me to believe the payment comes after that, which hits you in the 2015 tax year. So doing the timing right, one could theoretically jump to an airline/guard gig, and ride out most of 2015 on low-paying probation with a similar tax bill as previous years. Or hell, use the money to start a business and cook the books so that you operated at a loss. Point is, you've got a lot more leeway getting it in 2015 vs 2014.

No, she's still a disgusting human being. How dare you impugn our right to experience political outrage from Youtube videos, Facebook posts, and Twitter feeds! The integrity of the echo chamber must be maintained at all costs!

This is a rare flying-related rant, but here goes: I honestly believe the problem with the ORM program is that most AC's simply lack the fortitude to push back against something that is unsafe and bullshit, because they are afraid that they will look bad in front of leadership. I always find it absolutely amazing how an AC, before a mission, can know that it's bullshit and dangerous, his crew all recognizes that it's bullshit and dangerous, and possibly one brave soul even voices their opinion that it is bullshit and dangerous. But the AC goes along with it anyway, because they gotta look good for the boss. Maybe they are pushing for a good follow on assignment, or a DP, or whatever the hell else. The simple fact is that the PIC has the most power in this equation. People say don't let someone on the ground fly to your jet, but an AC who is too chickenshit to stand up to his superiors when he knows something is wrong, is doing exactly that. TACC will always push you to go and lean forward, because that is their job. Leadership will always do the same. Only the PIC can assess the situation on the ground and act as a check on the system. That's why we have officers in charge of those damn planes, the same way we have officers in charge of ships in the Navy that get a ton of command leeway. You are the master and commander of that fucking aircraft, so act like it.