hindsight2020

Generally speaking the answer is no. If you don't complete training you are released as your position was contingent upon successful completion of said training. To wash out academically at UPT, you have to bust three exams and be recommended for disenrollment. I think it is straight up buffonery to fail academically out of UPT but there is a weather test that a lot of people historically fail, and has put a fair share of folks over the magic number and into the elimination process. FWIW that weather test is on it's way out for that particular reason, it was a worthless test anyways. So nowadays it is even more clownish to fail academically. Medical washout is a more realistic way of disenrolling, but even then they'll work with you. The most common reason is airsickness and it has to be BAD for it to disqualify you. I've seen guys get washed back twice, sent to the voodoo doctor in SPS or RND, come back and puke their way into a freggin jet slot; T-45s for the NAVY but it was at VN in AF training, so the example stands. Others with chronic sinus problems that eventually require surgery get put on a looooong DNIF and still make it. Then again, there are others that do not, but my point is that barring a really bad problem, so long as you pace yourself and give your honest best effort you should be fine with airsickness and/or sinus problems. Hope that helps.

It's not that people don't understand where you're coming from, they do, as we all have to go through the gayness. UPT is filled with gayness, and it's a haze, period dot. Some people look at everything with a remarkable sense of stoicism, that's not a virtue as some assume, that's just their perrogative. That said, UPT has also been around for a long time and things will not change, so the best thing you can do is eat the sh$t sandwich for a year like the rest of us and pull chocks out of here as soon as one possibly can. Venting in this forum as you can see will not win you much sympathy. As it pertains to the instructors, they come (sts) in all variances. Some are great teachers, easy to fly with and supportive. Others are d$cks and have personal agendas that make one's life miserable. Again, it's all a day by day affair at UPT. The key is to hold to the finish line, then you're somewhat home free. The gayness should diminish as you go through the pipeline, some have to endure extra a$$pain (IFF and certain RTUs continue to carry UPT-like antics) but in the end it should diminish. There is a practicality to it as some posters above suggested rather callously; quite fittingly, it's the concept of a thick skin. If you have one, great, if not, it is advantageous to develop one. Again, I make a distinction between having a thick skin and being stoic, but a thick skin will be an assest to you as you move to the operational force, and it that sense DO take the previous posters' advice to heart. It's easier for me as a Reservist though, I don't have to look forward to a continuation of the gayness once I peace out of here with my middle finger out the window into the sunset, but a thick skin definitively aids in enduring the circus. As to the officership stuff, yeah I wouldn't let the airman-type slack off on common courtesies, but as an Lt I know that there are plenty of more senior NCO types that have been in the branch for much longer, and in spite of my rank I make sure and act with respect and recognition of their seniority, it's just common sense. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about that one. Again, as a reservist, active-duty-isms roll off my back like water on a duck, but you get the jist of my point. Perception is reality at UPT. Make sure you keep these feelings as private as possible (you see the reaction you get when you go public with this), play the part, take the weekends to decompress from the gayness, and hold on 'til the finish. Wings are a great accomplishment once you get there, in spite of the training environment. Good luck.

It's called Palace Chase, but I *think* that presupposes you are already qualed and flying something. Getting hired at a ANG/Res unit is a lengthy process, so even if you started applying now you'd most likely be done with UPT before you would have an interview of any sort...unless you were local to the unit of interest and/or they knew you well and making contact was therefore a non-issue.. Also, it will be difficult to get out from the hectic year and a half UPT/FTU is to go rush units. My guess would be that you need to get done with UPT, figure out what you're going to fly, and once you're established in your assignment, hit units up until you get picked up. Of course, once you are qualified in an airframe, units that fly your particular frame will most likely be your most realistic option. If you track T-1s and your wish was to fly fighters for the Guard/Res, I don't think it's gonna happen for ya bro. The main thing here is that you need to understand that getting picked up by a Guard/Reserve unit is a fairly competitive process, more competitive than getting an active duty pilot slot (there I said it). So you should have done your homework earlier (as in, before you committed yourself to pilot training with the AD). That said, I tend to think you'll be in a more realistic position to Palace Chase once you get done with pilot and follow-on training. There are some folks in here that have palace chase'd to the Guard less than a year after completing FTU, so having to wait until your ADSC is done with is not the only way to go about (I think that had a 'pay your dues' tone to it) .....it's definitively doable early on, you just have to apply apply apply. I don't think you'll get any support from your AD chain of command though. So keep it to yourself. Good luck man.

The answer to your question is a big "it f%ckin depends". The availability of man days varies from unit to unit. Factors that play into your paycheck as a bum/trougher are the type of airframe, the general ops tempo of the individual unit, as well as the number of co's/wingmen doing the exact same thing you're doing when you get there. In general I would say you will fare well in the 135. Heavy units tend to have a healthier allocation of man days than the fighter types. As it pertains to the seasoning period (which are active duty days), it is my understanding that it used to be quite healthy, circa a year. From talking to other guard guys the number now varies. Some expect 30-45 days (myself included), others have 270 days, others a year. The longer periods tend to be quoted by the fighter guys in my recent epxerience asking this. Again, your individual unit will be the one to definitively answer that one. Now regarding pay once back in traditional status. The guarantee is 48 pay periods for UTAs (12 drills @ 4 pay periods per), 48 AFTP and your 14 AT days (15 for Guard...the f%ck I know why one day more..) Clearly this amount to roughly 9Kish for 2LT rate and clearly not enough to live on. I don't think your unit is going to set you up for that kind of expectation. You WILL make more than that. How much more depends on the factors I stated above. For 135 guys I would venture to say the biggest factor is how many other co's bumming at the time of your arrival. If you're one of the few, then there should be enough work to enable you not to have a second job. If there's a lot like you then yeah the pickings will be slim. At least you're not in a fighter unit, I would venture to say that it is a little more difficult to pick up man days in a fighter unit, plus you have to actually fly twice in one day to "double teep" (toungue n' cheek guys...:) ) that's Guard for burning two pay periods in one calendar day. At any rate, as you can see things can vary a lot. I would ask your Capt types in your unit, they're right in the thick of it and would be able to answer you fully without much reservation. I've heard of people accruing roughly 300 pay periods calling it a good year, on 2LT that's 25-27K, 1LT about 35K etc..and I think I might be low-balling the math as I don't know if I've figured the pay fractions fully. Anyways, that's like 4 man days a week averaged out.....which is a healthy amount. The Guard/Reserves (in my short experience so far) takes care of its own, you should have no problem finding work as a new co. Now, how much pay also depends on your expectations. Are you going to make 60K? I don't think so. Could you? Maybe, but at least I'm not banking on it. Are you going to make 12K? No, you're not. You'll make anywhere above 30K. Guys in my unit have made 45K the first year, it is my expectation to make a similar amount and I've been told by folks in my unit to not expect to have a second job. PROVIDED you don't have much competition from other co's in the bumming dept I also expect you to pull upwards of 35-40K your first year. After the first year things get better, the whole issue for the new guy is the 2LT pay rate, once you go up in rank the pay periods become more valuable and making your income target becomes easier. The other thing that I think you have going on in your favor is the fact that you're brand new. The unit's expectation is to have you available and working the line much more so than the seasoned guys. Most guys I know going thru training right now are all expected to be local, and so was I. So clearly there is the notion that the unit wants you and needs you there to do the one job you're supposed to be doing as a fresh co/wingman...to become proficient in your jet. I think the naysayers come with a little negative transfer from the shut up and color attitude presented to the active duty LTs, but I digress. My point is that I don't see your unit forcing you to min run as a NEW guy, which would necessitate a civilian job right off the start (the scenario Rainman alluded to). The unit expects you to be there almost full time the first year. Regarding civilian employers, once again, odds are you're better off bumming/troughing. Once you take a peek at the civilian employers you will quickly discover that aside from an airline gig, the schedules just don't jive. It is very difficult for a brand new guy to fulfill the additional commitment that entails being new at that unit and maintain the 9-5. The unit (should) understands this, which is why so many of us are "encouraged" to be locals. As I said before, all the guys going thru training with me right now are going to be locals, pretty much as condition of employment. That's not a coincidence. You WILL be flying more your first year than the average O-5 in the unit, guy who mind you, can make the same coin as you in the fraction of the pay periods. So you see there is a method to this madness after all. So let's say you're thinking on going to the regionals as a way to cover your livelihood. Chances are you WILL make more bumming than on first year FO pay. That means your opportunity cost is better to stay at the unit (and stay in town) all week than commute to sit reserve and make sh%t while the neighbor takes care of your wife/gf all week. Hell, on the -135 you are likely to match or exceed the yearly flying hours that you would on a regional, which even as SIC time it sure as hell looks better than RJ time anyways.(and the only airline that cares about 121 time notes military time in lieu of 121 so there ya go) You could even go and get hired at the regional and then go on leave as much as possible, I consider that somewhat of a dick move to your FO bretheren, and would have a hard time keeping a straight face about it, but it is an option to deal with the only hit you might be taking, which is the health care issue. So I see little reason for you to actually need a second job, other than you want a lavish lifestyle and/or already have 3-4 kids and have no choice but to suck it up chase as much coin as you can. Once you're a CAPT, and AC on that big ol'jet then your options and pay issues become exponetially alleviated. I still find it a great opportunity to have the priviledge to serve in the Guard/Reserves and most of the flak you'll catch from the AD types (the ones who object to bumming I'm referring to ONLY btw), while mostly consisting of the Guard baby name-calling and constant references to your canned training missions, have more to do with the fact that they wished they would have done their homework on the ANG/AFR a little earlier. TC :) My purely speculative $2.75 on the matter. Good luck brother

VN 07-11 Totals (AF only) 5 T-38 (2 Guard, 1 Reserve, 2 AD) 6 T-1 (1 Guard, 5 AD) 1 T-44 (1 AD) 1 UH-1 (1 AD) So, 22% 38s AD only On par with the average drop statistically, but none of the AD Toners wanted them. We had 2 guys put 44s as #1 choice. One got it, the other got Toned. Almost all the AD guys, except the helo special request and the two -44 wannabes, put T-38s first with 44s second choice. Plenty of broken hearts (and heavy drinking) to go around tonight. Apparently, CB got 5 AD 44s that nobody wanted, and there were unhappy faces down there about it. Maybe if those 44 slots would have made their way up here both classes would have been pretty content. Navy side of the house will wait till Thursday. Only two dudes had already heard back, one jets (T-45) and one helo (TH-57).

Assuming you're a resident of AZ I venture to say that it will still cost you more to go back to ERAU, hence the argument about wasting your parents' money goes out the window. Hell, my take is that you ARE wasting your parents money by going to ERAU, for the reasons I've already highlighted in my previous post. Now, the rest of your reasons are of a very personal nature and can't be weighted objectively. Personally, I don't know exactly what "I really don't think ASU is all that cool and quite honest I had more fun at riddle" means, but most people who know anything about the differences between private and public universities, small and large colleges, and have worked on both sides of the classroom (yours truly) would usually raise the BS flag about that one. I went to southern and midwestern schools, but had friends at ASU, and it really takes a social cripple to not have "fun" at ASU. But like I said, those are intangibles that cannot be objectively quantified. Who knows, some people like going to school in more homogenous (or was it hegemonized? LOL..sorry couldn't resist) demographical environment, different strokes for different folks. Regarding the transfer of credits, yeah it sucks, but it's not uncommon. Sometimes it's not that the credits don't transfer, it's that they don't transfer into the major for graduation purposes; same result but it's a distinction worth mentioning. My take on it is just like I did with my repeated courses: easy A's my man, particularly going from ERAU to ASU. You weren't having problems with your grades to begin with, so it shouldn't be a problem, go chase some poon since you won't have to go to class as often All that aside, I think you're putting wayyyy too much emphasis on how the college tab on your resume will affect your Guard chances. You can transfer 3 more times (provided your GPA doesn't get affected) and all it would transpire out of it is more stuff to bullshit about in the interview. That's it. It doesn't go into a magical secret algorithm that deducts points for number of colleges attended and partially weights on college rankings LOL. I used to be all about racking up my college profile and freggin' 2 degrees later (including a MS) I was still getting f#ck you letters. It's all about timing, luck and chemistry with the unit members that will be making the decision process. You already know my advice, but somebody who needs arm-twisting to pick ASU OVER ERAU probably has their mind made up. Good luck on whatever you do. [ 03. December 2006, 07:00: Message edited by: hindsight2020 ]

I wouldn't transfer back to ERAU. Having a degree from ERAU vs. ASU is NOT going to fundamentally re-shape your chances of getting into a Guard unit. ASU is cheaper, the quality of life is better, the academics are relatively easier, and you will get the same degree. Even if you were job hunting for a civi job I would say it's not worth spending the extra cash for, and if the contention is that you're getting a degree because it's part of what's required to get a pilot slot in the Guard (which a degree is) then even more of a moot point. stay in ASU, you're fine. During my undergraduate years I did what many of my colleagues considered to be a downward transfer of schools, based on their Kool-Aid-drinking, US News and World Report rankings carrying myopia, and I got a pilot slot anyways and the name of the colleges I attended probably contributed the least to getting accepted. If the unit is local to the area you're going to school at, it may have some significance because you might have local folks who went there, otherwise it's a wash. Stay at ASU. College Rankings are a racket, if high school students were better served by their parents and mentors at that level they would stop feeding on the lie that a degree from a perceived higher ranked school naturally flows into "making it". It doesn't. Your goal should be to get the degree in the shortest amount of time possible, maximize the GPA (easier schools happen to afford ya that too), and minimize the debt load right off college. That's your goal and in all 3 counts ASU would put you ahead. My $0.85 [ 02. December 2006, 09:22: Message edited by: hindsight2020 ]

Robes is correct. Yes, if you are Guard/Reserve and you have housing costs at your HOR (meaning you rent or own back home) and continue to carry those costs while you're at UPT, you are entitled to receive full BAH rate for your HOR location. This holds true regardless of your housing allocation status at UPT (works the same whether you occupy off-base housing or on-base housing/dorms at UPT, whether you're married or single). What this means is for guys like a buddy of mine who's from New England, he's living in the dorms here and pocketing about 1K in BAH for his HOR!$!$!$! This is a recent addendum to the rules and I think the link in the previous posting has the thread that includes the source document. I always loved the "TDY with PCS entitlements" on my UPT orders. PCS entitlements but not a PCS, TDY but no TDY entitlements lol. Total Force at work for ya.

One of the things I noticed in my joyful OTS experience was how little some AD folks knew about their fate as future AD pilots. To see them assuming all they would do as an Air Force pilot is to fly shocked me! In that sense Guard/Reserve folks have, in general, done more homework on this question than the active folks. I personally could not put up with the qweep of a 20 year stint in the active. AirGuardian and Bergman are right on the money regarding the flying time, and may I add quality, that the Reserve Component guys get. My unit in particular fills all training requirements and currencies in sorties that last half as long, and folks ready for upgrades have been run through the ringer so much so they find the schoolhouse to be more of a pain than a learning experience. All at a fraction of the cost I might add. You just can't beat it if your primary focus is flying. Of course all this is airframe dependent, but at least the flying frquency aspect of this is true for most airframes. Now, you gotta deal with the pains of finding civilian employment (unless you get lucky with an AGR or ART slot) and the scheduling conflicts and pains associated with that, but that's a choice I was willing to make in order to get in. I wouldn't have done it any differently, and judging by my AD contemporaries sitting casual for the next 12 months, asking me how's the hiring right now over my side of the fence and what the hell is Palace Chase, the morning of commissioning ceremony no less, neither would they advise me to. Different strokes for different folks.

I am in the same situation as you are right now. I am single and my g/f and her kitty (STS) will be moving with me to UPT, and the base has the same stipulation regarding living on-base as a "single" stud. The first time I asked the question I got the "you GOTTA live on-base". Let me tell you that's just the party line. My advice to you is to show up at Base Housing no earlier than your RNLT. That way you maximize your chances of showing up when they are full and/or have no way of allocating a dorm for you on the spot. That's what I will be doing anyhow. Now, all that is great and good as it pertains to BAH, but that's ALL it is about. If you get the non-avail slip great (you get BAH), if not oh well. Now, most people you'll talk to interchange the "can't" and the "not willing to". When people don't get the non-avail slip they say they "can't" live off-base only because they don't want to pay for a domicile with basic pay. And that's fine, but don't let that term-misuse confuse you. They can't restrain you from obtaining a second dwelling on your own dime if you so choose to. What happens is that you'll have a dorm, and it'll come in handy during certain points on any given week, but then you'll have your stuff and your girlfriend in the apartment off-base. Happens all the time, and I personally wouldn't recommend you go the "refuse govt. quarters" route, that WILL create paperwork and a talk with a commander. Rather, lay low, hope for a non-avail slip, but if it doesn't happen, get your apartment set up and have your dorm for show. That's how I'm going about it if I don't get my non-avail slip anyhow. Most of the time the housing office is so busy they just work with ya and a "if I don't know about it I don't care" anyways. Be cordial with the housing folks when you show up and you'd be surprised how much of a non-issue it is. I do have to say that the "needs of the Air Force" argument is bullshit. How is it advantageous to the government that I go about it like some of the married folks around here who shotgun wed the honey across the street (Air Force doesn't have shit to say about that now...) so they can solve their housing situation whereas I'm actually trying to do things the right way at my own cost? The answer is, it isn't advantageous to the government, but it IS highly hypocritical and simplistic. This "policy" is nothing more than a by-product of the cultural construct of the UPT/UNT demographics, that's all. Mother Blue assumes ALL single U(P/N)T students are little AFA graduate collegiate inmature children who horseplay during MFS at Brooks at the age of 24 (no shit, witnessed it myself), although judging by the article I just read on the latest AFA commencement AETC does have somewhat of a leg to stand on that one, sadly, but I digress. Bottom line, it's an economic thing, less people to grant BAH, period. That's why they put that economic disincentive to living off-base, and most of the kiddies bite it, which is fine if you just got off the Academy or the 3-bedroom-with-8-people-college-life, but for people in different circumstances (never mind Guard and Reserve folks, where our units are the ones paying the potential BAH no less!) they can't do anything about your choice to have additional dwelling on your own dime, other than witholding BAH, opportunity cost that you and I will agree is a non-issue given our circumstances. Hope that sheds some light into your head-scratching. Hit me up if you have any other questions. Good luck bud.

Agree with all the pros about buying a house. Like it has been stated before, at the very least you build equity, and that beats renting every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The only problem is that this market is insane and 2006 money is so inflated is not even funny. Elaborating from the example that Clearedhot provided, unfortunately a year 2006 $92,000 home is a de facto section 8 housing in most metropolitan areas, and even some medium-size cities. Consequentially, it is most likely located in a neighborhood that won't see any worthwhile appreciation, if any. Albeit speculation, I don't foresee witnessing the same kind of appreciation on my 2006 92K home in the same time period than it took to reach 300K in the 1991 92K home.Real estate investing has subsidized the lives of many of us, hell it helped put me through college, I'm just concerened my generation will not be able to enjoy the same kind of profitability our parents did, and preach about on a daily basis. (I'm in my 20s). To get a minimum threshold of "liveability" and investment soundness, one has to get into the 150-175s in small metro areas/towns, upper 200's in major metro areas, which is just not very realistic for a first-time home buyer with no previous cash base, unless you stick up grandpa for the down payment or have been saving since high school, which is about the only way to get ahead nowadays with 2006 paychecks. I concur with the condo and/or townhouse option, they tend to retain value and maintenance hassles are smaller, worthwile to rent as well, if you can find one outside the ghetto for the same price of the single-family home you were basing your budget from. Also, do not get sucked into the ARM loan crowd. These are the same folks who get anxious because they see the market "blow up" and feel they're missing out on something. Forget the doom and gloomers that say the market's bottom is gonna fall out, that probably won't happen, but a minor cool-off in the local market is enough to stop your chances of selling your property at a profit, and now you're over your head.

Does that statement and belief make you sleep better at night?

What puzzles me about this discussion is that if the merits of the T-1 vs. T-38 contention are so "relative", then why do the senior guys on here point out to the factual washout rate differential under the all-Talon system? Now, I was too young to witness the system change, but I can only infer that the presence of the T-1 is due, in part, to the need to mitigate the attrition losses under the all-Talon system. Can somebody comment on the economics of the argument? It seems to me that it would be more expensive to maintain 3 airframes rather than 2. I also venture to suggest that perhaps the cargo/airlift/tanker FTUs can and probably do a good enough job of imparting whatever CRM edge a T-38 Phase III tracking might have not stressed enough, and do so sufficiently well as to negate the need for a T-1 to begin with. At the very least it overcomes the opportunity cost of having a third airframe (T-1) on the line. I guess I just don't get the T-1. To me it seems like a source of a lot of animosity among pilots who would have otherwise smoked in Talons, it fuels airframe-specific stigmas (the B-52 being a clear case), and it introduces the inability to cross-flow, which I think it's a meritless and unwarranted constraint. The only people it seems to be serving is the few cases where the pilot trainee can't fly if his life depended on it and the T-1 provides a larger buffer zone, at the cost of the class majority who could probably end up in the same operational airframe as they did in the new system, but maintain the possibility of cross-flowing at a later point in their careers; as somebody previously mentioned, UPT being only a slice of the performance profile of a pilot. So unless we're ready to assert that the bottom 50% of the T-1 trackers would outright kill themselves in a T-38, I believe my argument for an all-Talon system holds water. If such assertion is true however, then I digress and understand the existence of the T-1, and T-1 folks just need to thicken up, but I don't think that's the case. But that's my opinion from the outside looking in [ 27. January 2006, 15:48: Message edited by: MDINC ]

**I say the following as opinion not based on any operational experience, as my flying experience is exclusively civilian, and I wait to undertake SUPT.** I guess I missed the memo, but what is so bad about the BUFF? I've picked up on the assertion that by having bombers as drops on the -38 track, the commanders and IPs would have an avenue to shelter the "slower" -38 grads from "killing themselves" in a single seater. However short-sighted, perhaps relative, I may consider that assertion to be, I understand what they are trying to get to, and it would and does speak truth about certain pilots, as no system is able to effectively rack and stack people's potential perfectly. Personally, I am looking forward to tracking -38s as a -52 select. Now granted, I don't have half the pressures that an AD selectee would have in having to maximize their chances of obtaining their preferred airframe, but to suggest that a bomber assignment (and a BUFF one, which seems to be the common usage around here) would be a pigeon-hole or dead-end assignment for a -38 grad is just a feeble contention at best. Several of the senior pilots at my sponsoring squadron have very respectable single-seater experience; crossflow made possible in part to, you guessed it, a -38 background. I look at it as a great asset, and once again I am thrilled to get the opportunity to track Talons (and have a blast!) while having an open door of flexibility if the leadership would ever need me in a single-seater capacity at any point in time. On the flip side, and in giving credit to the -38 tracking bubbas who are specifically interested in pursuing Viper, Eagle and Hog assignments, the suggestion some on the TONE side make that one would be ill-prepared by default to tackle the task of flying a bomber on account of it having two seats, and one not having tracked T-1, also strikes me as a little feeble. I understand the role the T-1 track plays in the training system, but to suggest that Talon trained pilots are so one-dimensional as to be crassly unable to tackle the particulars of a crew airframe is a little bit of a stretch. I guess I look at my future airframe as full of opportunity and not a pigeon-hole assignment. Having said that I do understand the apprehension of having drops other than F-x's on the part of folks like TweetFAIP, that are in the thick of things regarding variablity of assignments. That's part of the reason why I side with the suggestion made by Bozz in a previous thread about bringing back the old all-Talon system. That is of course just wishful thinking , and not something that is going to happen. But I rather have that system and have people prove themselves rather than perpetually stigmatizing the -52. That said, I don't think it [the BUFF stigma] is that big of a deal, at the end of the day you either hack it or you don't. :D Tailwinds folks. EDIT: I didn't see rotorhead's post on the refresh, but I totally agree. Particularly about having diversity among the -38 IPs, all while lessening the "whitejet" burden. I was thinking of precisely that case as examples where having tracked -38s as a bomber guy does prove potentially valuable to the Force in the long run. [ 22. January 2006, 01:34: Message edited by: MDINC ]

The 'other' forum had this thread go on for ages, I followed it until I got tired of writing a thesis to the non-believers, you guys probably saw the long a$$ thread and how it got out of control...Slacker your analogy is very similar to the one I gave early on the 'other' board, good choice :D All that said,I love this thread here on baseops...the mere fact that currently rated AF drivers got hung on this one makes ME feel better about my non-selection letters, all the self-validation I needed :D

You shouldn't have a problem doing that, there are several -10 outfits been shuffled. Whiteman seems the more likely one for you (it's some of y'alls birds after all :D ) but Guard outfits are also shuffling, so it might gravitate down to those too. Bottom line, you're still golden, I have no hesitation in acknowledging the fact that I envy your position. Congrats and keep the pointy side forward! UPT is a handful but I bet it's a blast too

Hey ReserveWpilot, If the Guard/Reserve cocks%cking insinuations chafe you the wrong way, you're going to have a long a$$ decade trying to get into the AFReserves or the ANG. I was YOU about 4 years ago. At the time I thought to myself that if I worked hard in school in a technical major and busted my ass saving for and obtaining my civlian ratings, the Guard/Reserve would see my potential and hire me....tough sh$t, wasn't enough.... and here I sit, actually with an unsponsored pilot slot from the Reserves, working on the end of my second straight year of applications, going on the beginning of the third. To be honest, the best thing you can do is enlist with the unit and build up a reputation with them...there are countless examples of people on this board who did this and it worked for them. I didn't enlist because I felt potential deployments would prolongate, for far too long, the completion of a major that didn't even enable me to have a civilian part-time job, let alone a military one. In addition, I was out-of-state so I couldn't really commit to one unit, I needed the flexibility. Nowadays I have too many college degrees to ever consider enlisting, at the most I would commission into a non-flying job, but I digress. My point being, you're still in sophomore year, consider enlisting with the unit you're interested in. And by the way, that doesn't even preclude you from applying everywhere else, which isn't a bad proposition either since you'll be prior enlisted to them (as opposed to in-house which is the ideal case). So you really can't lose by enlisting, unless you piss off the wrong person and/or get deployed and your schooling prolongates for ions. Other than that, yeah visiting helps (I really don't know why I keep giving advice to the competition..oh well) and if you're not a social person then it can be tough... there I can't help you much, I'll tell you where the good fish are but I can't teach you how to fish, I'm on thin gas myself :D As for the Reserves, MOST definitively, you need face time. If you're looking for fighters, I'll save ya the homework and tell ya they're not hiring (and the line is long for a change LOL), but you're still about 3 years away from being in a position to apply so you shouldn't worry too much about the current environment. Reserve Heavy units are hiring on a seasonal basis due to the 2 yearly boards the AFRC holds, so for them it might still pay off to try the unsponsored route if don't quite get through by the normal sponsored route of directly interviewing with the unit (a la' Guard style). And of course, don't forget to also try the ANG; for the purposes of this thread they are one in the same jobwise. Do your best at school, have fun, take your AFOQT, BAT etc etc, get your PPL if you can and try and network with the units as much as possible. You can always forego the networking and go active (ROTC, or OTS if ya decide late in your college tenure). good luck bud MDINC

No prob man, I did jump the gun a little; you've clearly done your homework. Your last reply strikes me as well-grounded, I think that's a huge positive for you long-term. Good luck with the folks in Carolina, I would give my left one to have that mission based in such beautiful country. Ditto for the grad school questions, your exchange with the Dept Head was the kind of experience I was alluding to. Press on brotha.. MDINC

At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you have a big enough picture of what's involved in pursuing a PhD in either of your fields of interest/involvement. I'm right here reading about 'work part time at a university doing research/teaching'. I would HIGHLY recommend you research that some more. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, Airguardian already elaborated on the economic circumstances that make pursuing grad school while flying for the Guard a steep hill to climb, and to add my jist, a self-imposed and unnecessary one. I'm also a little troubled by your assesment of what's involved in GETTING this flying gig. I must admit that, in the past 2 years, if there is one thing I've learned from this process is 1)patience and 2)a bitter cold sense of humility (the kind that's branded on and lasts a lifetime :D ). Don't be dismissive of the process, you think you're all good with your AFOQT knocked out, but I gotta tell ya, that doesn't mean sh$t. If you didn't intend to transmit this sentiment I apologize for misreading your reply. I'm just trying to provide you with some perspective, rather than seeing you getting it after your applications don't hook and bite the first couple of years and you throw the classical "WTF?!?." You are looking at a VERY long line trying to get with the [good ol'] boys at the 169th FW. dumaisj is their latest pilot selectee, and a baseops regular, he might be able to give ya the jist on what's going on at their unit. Personally, I think you're probably going to have to enlist with them, he did, and that may or may not be compatible with grad school contentions (I submit that it is not). And yes, I have applied several years in a row so I know, at least a little, of what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to discourage you at all, in fact I applaud the fact that, like me, you're looking at a career profile that's different from the boring ol' 'AS degree--Continental Express--Guard-until-Delta-calls' business, and some units appreciate that kind of diversity. I'm just trying to advise you on some of the personal and professional pitfalls that may leave you with a bitter taste in your mouth if you don't tread this route conservatively. The bottom line on the matter is that at some point your aviation side is going to have to stand out if you want this to happen. Once again, this doesn't mean the usual path I scorned above, but like Air Guardian also pointed out in his reply, start flying some and showing commitment to that end. I think your credentials show that in general you're smart enough to fly the thing, let me be the first one to welcome ya to the club, the line starts at the end, unless you're in-house of course ;) . Keep at it, please do yourself a favor and SPREAD THOSE applications, apply apply apply, call them up, don't be a retard on the phone or in person (if you can avoid it), have a plan (be it grad school or a different endeavor) that is compatible to waiting for the Guard AND waiting for and through training. Considering the competition these days, the effort involved in securing these slots is not worthy, or sustainable (at least not anymore), for someone who's thinking 'it'd be a cool shit to fly on Sunday after I get home from Initech'; leave that for the commercials. It is something that you must pursue at the forefront of your career expectations, at least for the first part of it (getting the slot, UPT, IFF, FTU, MQT...). I repeat myself in saying that if you're truly passionate about it you'll have what it takes to be successful. Somewhat identifying with your situation, I sincerely wish you the best. Take my assesment on the matter as opinion, yes, but do take the general theme to heart. Good luck man. Sincerely MDINC

I'm in grad school, in a technical degree field (AE) just like you, shooting apps at fighter units just like you, and in my last semester (somewhat like you). If they told me that I would get that Viper slot but the caveat would be that I would have to drop everything RIGHT NOW, including withdrawing from school in my last semester of my M.S. and forego the degree altogether, I would do it in a heartbeat!!! I've discovered that having advanced technical degrees matters little in the quest for a ANG fighter slot. No shit some of the responses I've gotten from current -16 dudes range from, and I quote: "Shit, you're smarter than I am..." and "Man you'd be great for TPS" to "F%ck, that's overkill son, I got this job with a CFI and an AS degree HA-HA-HA". I know this doesn't address your particular question but I needed to preface my point to you. And my point is this: F$ck grad school until you get the ANG figured out. Your timeline to become an AF pilot is less flexible than pursuing grad school. Furthermore, I submit to you that is it highly unlikely that you will return to pursue graduate degrees once you're rated and flying for the Guard, you just won't find it worth it. My advice to you would be to do what I did. Apply to grad school, do your thing and pursue the Guard slot concurrently, have patience and be ready to drop that f!cker if you get selected. The variables are so many it is unlikely that you will know when and under what circumstances you'll get selected; pursuing grad school would serve as the classical 'delay tactic' until things settle down. Now, regarding your grad school contentions... I think it's highly unlikely that you'll get an assitantship and/or fellowship if you're flying for the Guard. The reason being that they want people to be their b$tch, to sit down 5 days a week and chug work for the professor. Your month-to-month commitments to the Guard will make you a part-time grad student and technical programs do NOT like part-timers...i.e. you'll never get your sh$t approved and done with, at least my experience has been such in engineering. Believe me, I took it upon myself to take my sweet a$$ time getting this M.S., QOL sucks a$$ and I didn't want to go postal as all I've been really pursuing is the Guard slot...Furthermore, since I was non-thesis track (i.e. nobody's b$tch) the advising professor never checked up (or cared to) on me for 2 years until the Head of the Department basically dropped me from the payroll. I've been flying NOE for soo long they thought I had graduated!! LOL.. now I'm magically a 'degree candidate' this semester under duress :D . At any rate, bottom line, it's just not a compatible affair. They won't hold off admission because you're in the Guard, that would be illegal ;) , you'll just hate the shenanigans so much you'll just move on. I understand where you're coming from, and it sounds like a reasonable position to have. You certainly don't want to pay for grad school out-of-pocket, hell I wouldn't advise you to either, but I think you should put your flying career here first and then worry about the graduate degrees. The other option would be to scrap the 'waiting on the Guard' approach to grad school and basically forego grad school altogether (not a bad idea!) and work in your field (something I was never willing to do) or chug side jobs until the Guard happens. Either way, IMHO, you do NOT want to pursue graduate studies to completion BEFORE tackling a pilot slot, and if you're as passionate and determined to make the ANG thing work out for you I don't have to remind you either. Good luck man MDINC

To further support UPT-hopeful's point (although I think 92-99 PCSM is competitive but hardly anything I would use as a benchmark, plenty of competitive packages with PSCM<92, but I understand the spirit and intent of your commment so we're on the same page), the interviews are like a big 'REFRESH' button, where the PCSM/GPA/LOR's/whatever is no longer relevant, individually at least. In the absence of 99's in everything, face time with the unit will get you closer to the interview. I'm afraid the answer to your question will have a standard deviation so wide it will be of no use to you. There are those who score great on the AFOQT, those who do not, those whose PCSM are low, some who are not. Those who have CFI's, those who are just PPL, those who already fly 121. Those who are scrapping 28.5y/o, those who are 21-22. Guess what? Profiles like these have all gotten a slot, and have all gotten rejected. The usual AFOQT in the 90's, PCSM above 85, GPA 3.5 preferably tech degree, basketball captain, volunteer service that shadows Mother Theresa, and outstanding citizen of the year Boy Scout award is a good benchmark for the OTS board. It IS useful in establishing that goal for yourself to also be competitive in the Guard, but once you get to that interview be prepared to get passed on for people with LESS and MORE paper quals as you. Moral of the story, work on you as a person and face time face time face time..oh and don't give up lol. MDINC

Well, having done my stint at GATECH a couple moons ago I'm familiar with the ATL scence. And c17 is probably right, but that statistic has as much to do with Hispanics moving into West Cobb as it has to do with whites moving OUT of W Cobb because the hispanics are moving in. Keep the argument balanced. The proportion looks shocking but has a context. Care for MARTA getting b!tched out back in '02 because the 'people' of Alpharetta didn't like the idea of public transit reaching their pristine little heaven? And you know how people spell out MARTA down there. How about Buford Hwy... Chambodia *cough* I mean Chamblee......Apartheid anyone? Personally, I love ATL, I think going to 130 PIQ at Dobbins would beat the Rock every day and twice on Sunday. And as for the race thing, yeah I've gotten over that years ago, sh%t I still think it's not that bad in ATL. I transferred out of GT in the Summer of '01 and finished at UA (sorry c17, ATL rules and I miss it, too bad GT sucks, but I still read most of your posts favorably so no hard feelings :D ), and now that was a place nobody cared to walk on eggshells. It made ATL look like flippin' San Fransisco LOL. And I agree, the poster should have gone receive-mode only for a while; brings me back to my first couple of online beatings I took around here :D Toro makes an excellent point, you find sh%t everywhere, learn to manuever. Even in Tuscaloosa I managed to make friends and have a hell of a crazy good time, it's all about context. Once you know how people roll down there (no pun intended to my Crimson brethren) it's easier to sidestep the sh%t. This country is in socio-political denial, BIG TIME, but don't let that deter ya from having a good time, ATL or outside of ATL. [ 05. October 2005, 12:52: Message edited by: MDINC ]

Not really, as an active duty pilot you will have non-flying duties, and non-flying tours, but nothing in the way of a true part-timer (read Guard or Reserve). If you're wanting to pursue another career don't even mess with the AD side of things, cause you won't get the chance to [pursue the career concurrently] :D . ROTC is strictly an active duty commissioning source btw, some crazy scenarios may have happened I'm sure, but for the most part, no part-time gig comes out of ROTC. The NAVY does have Reserves but in essence they don't hire non-rated folks if I understand their process correctly. So that's not an option. I think pretty much the ANG and AF Reserves is your way to go. Depending on what airframe you're shooting for the pickings might be slimmer or better. But I second brabus in suggesting to you that the process is very competitive, so in the absence of a solid connection or the fortune of good timing it may take years to get there. So start now! Good luck man MDINC

Let me take a stab at your questions. The OTS board deals with active duty officer candidates, it is an acitve duty selection board. Both enlisted personnel and civilians apply to this board in hopes of being selected for the opportunity of gaining a commission in the AF. There are rated and non-rated boards (pilot is a rated position). Then there is the Guard and Reserves side of the house. ANG units hold boards once a year, depending on their slot allocations for that fiscal year. Priors, current enlisted, civilians alike apply directly to the particular unit, some get selected to interview and from those a selection is made. Once the lucky winner(s) are selected by the unit, they are put thru the process, which includes all the paperwork and medical sh$t, then the commissioning is obtained by attending AMS, which is the Guard's version of OTS. After AMS comes UPT etc etc etc. Now for your question. In the AF Reserves, AFRC holds a pilot selection board twice a year to approve candidates. In the Reserves your package gets submitted to the board either as a sponsored or an unsponsored candidate. Sponsored candidates are those who have been selected by the particular Reserve unit with which they interviewed. Reserve units hold interviews in a similar fashion as the ANG, but the final decision is not made by the unit, such in the case of the ANG, rather the approval is made by the AFRC board. Now, the thing about sponsorship is that FOR THE MOST PART, it's a done deal. That is to say, if you interviewed with a Reserve unit and got selected you can pretty much consider that as the equivalent to having been selected in a Guard unit. When your package gets sent to the AFRC board as 'sponsored' you can pretty much expect to be approved, it is in effect a rubber stamp. There have been scenarios where a snag was encountered in the process, but for the sake of simplifying the discussion, the folks who are going sponsored to the board shouldn't even sweat that board, it's a non-issue. Now, in addition to submitting a sponsored package, there is the option of submitting a package as an unsponsored candidate. This means there is no unit that has selected you, but the AFRC still enables you to be considered. What happens with the unsponsored route is that if you are approved by the AFRC board, you then become a 'free agent' of sorts and have to then start looking for a unit to call home. The slot expires age-wise only when you are no longer eligible to enter UPT and Robins does keep tabs on their selected 'free agents' as to try and match them with units that may have short-term manning needs or otherwise need to fill holes in their rosters (read sponsored guy washed out etc etc). It's on a voluntary basis (meaning they don't ASSIGN or ORDER you to be inducted into a particular unit) but most folks either flow into a unit they've been chasing or get selected into a Guard unit or perhaps go active by being selected by an OTS board, and we know this because the majority of folks applying to the Reserves are probably concurrently applying to Guard units and even the active (OTS) board. Now in the case of Reserve pilot selectees, they obtain their comission thru OTS, just like the active duty OTS board selectees (sorry about the redundant statement). I'm not sure if some Reserve folks have gone thru AMS because of a time crunch, but we'll leave that aside. For the most part if you're active duty or Reserves, you get the bar out of OTS, if you're Guard, you go to AMS. After that like I said, everybody meets at UPT. As it relates to your inquiry about your enlistment status, the short answer is that it doesn't matter. That is to say, the fact that you're currently enlisted doesn't put you on a different list regarding the AFRC board, deadlines are the same and the process you have to go through to get selected is the same as a civilian. Hopefully that gives you a road map of the different routes, and I hope I addressed the Reserve questions you had sufficiently. MDINC

FWIW Burt, it only appears that I've been trying for 'a while' because I'm a high-visibility target with the screen name. You're probably right about it too, it gets me more hate mail than it probabbly helps, but how fun would it be if we were all to bow down and have 'bona_fide_c$ck_sucker_won't_disagree_with_you' for screen name, there would be no fighter pilots left! That aside, I don't go spewing off my political views on the process during the interview, feel free to imply that it shines through though, I can't appease the whole world. But a message board? come on, we can all get over that, hopefully. I have no fear of sharing my experience, it's real and it's valuable to the extent that people are willing to put it in their bank of knowledge and move on. Constantly trying to discredit that experience is evidence that 1)you can't accept differing views or 2)people who elaborate on the particulars of their not-so-smooth sailing are de facto whiners and have no business being part of your flying organization. It's all perfectly fine, that's your prerrogative man. The truth of the matter is that the amount of time I've been pursuing the slot is nowhere near extreme when compared to others in the same pursuit. Two years around the block is not that long a time by any stretch of the imagination. Several pilots I've had the opportunity to interact with at these meet-and-greets met the board from 2 to 3 consecutive times AND were prior enlisted. This is further evidence that my time in purgatory is rather small. In addition, I have not applied to OTS, so my applications have been strictly to the Guard, at THAT, fighter units (with two exceptions), so that skews the experience. Your take on the Guard selection process proves once again that we continue to go "missed approach" with generalizations. This has become an all-out d$ck-measuring contest to prove to one another that there are either MORE prior-enlisted who are SH than are crew 'chief of the month' or conversely, MORE non-priors that are SH than CRJ flyin', parent-subsidized, university flight program babies. Once again, 'mileage will vary'. Like I told ISU, fight that urge to see red (perhaps the screen name ticks the sh%t out of you, I'll concede you that) and automatically discredit my experience because I spew it with dry sarcasm. The irony is, I usually spare you the semantics in person, and you have a point there, but Bozz's assessment IS true to whatever extent you feel comfortable with it. With that in mind, we hopefully put this big ol' parenthesis to bed and steer the thread back to the Reserve discussion. --AFRPilot Your point is certainly consistent with what my recruiter's position was on the matter. Something as to the effects of a general change in procedures. Also, I don't believe MEPS facilities ever did issue FCI's but I may be wrong. I remember going down to MEPS *thinking* I was going for a Flight Class I to discover that I just completed a General Class III hehe. [ 22. August 2005, 02:28: Message edited by: my_daddy_is_not_connected ]