brickhistory

Two outta three?

Can't they buy/get some sort of hybrid?

I'm thinking if one were particularly swarthy and looking up, one might not appreciate the majesty................

I will admit to being confused: 1. Blackstar said he was a JAG - called NORAD/JAG, no flyers, captains, or recently pinned majors. Called Peterson JAG and a "Mike" answered the phone. Asked if he had a black Corvette, he asked "Why do you want to know?" and hung up. 2. Checked global against the name on Whiterock's plaque; name matches to one in global at Peterson. Called the orderly room of the unit listed, there is a guy by that name working there, he is in his late 50s, so the Vietnam-era age checks. 3. This guy's details are either too readily googled and the little things that are just a tad off put loads of doubt on his veracity. 4. He won't/can't answer simple questions that anyone should be able to answer. So, for me, there is enough quacking for me to conclude to my satisfaction that 1+2+3+4 = duck BTW, is there any other USAF officer who doesn't call it the "JAG office?" I've been calling it that for 20+ years.......

Surely you can understand the skepticism. You can quote easily googled facts and can name names from what many to believe the authentic pilot's career, but you won't answer easily answerable but not easily googled questions about anything else related to his service? Perhaps you understand the skepticism. I do not think anyone on this forum would mind if a combat vet from a previous war joined in the discussions, but a poser is insulting. Why is that hard for you to understand? If you don't care what folks here think, why do you keep responding? So if you work in the same office as the poor, troubled blackstar, are you also in the JAG office? One can read the name on the certificate, by the way.

whiterock, you seem to lack credibilty as well as grammar skills (yourselfs?), but for me, you can clear it up with a relatively quick reply to: What was your pilot class # and patch? Even a description in lieu of a photo will suffice. What other squadrons did you fly with? What was squadron standard for dumping the drag chute? Actually, since it would have been 30 + years ago, that's not fair. Just a realistic recount of how to dump the chute will suffice, please. Who were Moonbeam and Cricket? If you flew, you knew....... edited to account for memory and 30 years - possibly.

Just finished it. Agree on the "Apocalypse Now" feel. And I didn't like that movie either - some great lines in it, "Charlie don't surf!" "Napalm in the morning smells like.......victory" et al, but while I enjoyed "Flying Through Midnight's" authenticity, I just had trouble with the stream of consciouness (sp?) style of writing. Simple mind, I guess..............

bunk, Being nosy here, but what did 'Dimestore's' PM say? Quoting the other great line from Dirty Harry that seldom gets its due, "I gots to know................"

Ok, I'm great, too. I'll just fire up my mighty E-3 with the turbo boosts and the control stick at my console, then I'm off for my general officer (BTZ) pin on...............

bunk22 gets the credit for recognizing and then calling out this loser with an assist from matmacwc

Just to close the loop on Doug Masters, ViperJAG: NORTHCOM Staff JAG Office has NO O-3s nor any recently promoted O-4s. No guys with wings of any flavor assigned. I believe I nailed down Doug Master's place of employment as at Space Command JAG office. When I called, guy with the same name as listed on the poser's page answered. I asked if he had a Corvette, he went defensive, end of call. So, do not believe Doug is even wearing a uniform and since he answered the phone like a receptionist, I'm seriously doubting the attorney part of his fantasy. If you're gonna dream, dream BIG! Something embarassing to any of us USAF guys who didn't clue in on the threat to have the Navy head of NORTHCOM swacked bunk. The sheriff there is an Air Force 4 star. I totally didn't know that.

Guess I'll be making a phone call to NORTHCOM tomorrow.............. Can somebody call the 77th? Should not be too hard to narrow it down for either office - 26 yr old white male, O-4 select, JAG turned Viper, er, sorry, Falcon pilot, turned JAG. If so, then good on him for being a superman. If, as is much more likely, he's a poser, then so be it.

Joe Public can take a tour:

Two questions: 1. Where do we find such men? 2. Are we taking WWII-type losses in the theaters that aren't making the news? Only way I know of for someone to make O-4 that fast.

I'm a reservist. I got the tax free. You got boned by that finance office. I'd have a word with the MPF boss and/or the Ops Grp/CC. If they're boning you, they're more than likely boning more as well.

“Smallest Fighter, Fastest Gun” “Rap 95, push it up. Troops in contact, taking a pounding.” With that call, 1Lt. John Gay knew this wouldn’t be a boring mission. But then, most missions in the Cessna A-37 “Dragonfly” weren’t boring. Averaging more than one mission a day since he’d arrived “in-country” in April of 1968, he had gained a healthy respect for both the enemy and for his airplane. On this day, June 3, 1968, he’d gain a lot more of both. Super Tweet Goes To War Mention Cessna aircraft and most folks will think of the ubiquitous Cessna 172 Skyhawk or one of the company’s other equally famous light aircraft. The military aficionado might even know of the O-1 “Birddog” and the military version of the 337 “Skymaster, the O-2 “Duck (mostly just called the “Oscar Deuce”) that served gallantly as forward air control ships for thousands of strike missions during Vietnam. But not many know of the armed version of the famous T-37 “Tweet” training aircraft, the A-37. The Tweet has trained thousands of pilots in Air Forces around the world. First production commenced in 1955 and by the mid-1960s, the United States Air Force was looking for a low-cost jet replacement for the Douglas A-1 “Skyraider” in the dangerous skies over Vietnam. Cessna quickly introduced the A-37A, a strengthened, armed version of the trainer. With General Electric J-85 engines replacing the anemic J-69s of the T-model, the A-37 “Super Tweet” had a lot more thrust to lug around the phenomenal weapon loads slung under the wings and the 6,000 rounds per minute 7.62mm mini-gun poking out of its snout. The gun had the highest rate of fire of any fighter’s cannon, hence its part of the A-37’s unofficial claim to fame. The A-37 could carry nearly double its own weight in fuel and ordnance. With a clean configuration and only half-full of fuel, the little jet had better than a 1:1 thrust to weight climb ratio. That meant that the thrust available exceeded the weight of the aircraft and it could climb going straight up. This was a feat not duplicated until the next generation of F-15s and F-16s appeared using much more advanced technology. On the minus side, the A-37 had unpowered, manual flight controls that took muscle to throw it around the sky. By April 1967, in a rush assignment codenamed COMBAT DRAGON, the first squadron of A-37s arrived at Bien Hoa Air Base (pronounced “Ben Whay”), South Vietnam. The 604th Air Commando Squadron (Fighter) quickly began operating the little jet, primarily in the southern regions of Vietnam against guerrilla forces called the Viet Cong or VC. This first batch of pilots was mostly majors and lieutenant colonels, highly experienced pilots with many thousands of fighter hours in their logbooks. The 604th , callsign “Rap,” earned a reputation of accurate bombing, putting its loads of iron bombs, napalm, rockets and cluster bomb units (CBU) on top of the Viet Cong no matter how close they were to the good guys. Indeed, a favorite tactic of the VC was to get as close to American GI’s and Marines as they could because the ‘fast-mover’ close air support jets couldn’t drop ordnance in close without jeopardizing American lives. The Raps were different. Down low and relatively slow, they could drop extremely close and accurately. The worst bombers in the squadron had errors of only 10-15 meters using nothing more advanced than the Mark I eyeball. The A-37 was the only aircraft in the Southeast Asia theater authorized to use CBUs with troops in contact (TIC), meaning US forces were getting shot at by the bad guys. A CBU is a canister filled with small, baseball-sized bomblets. The canister splits in half after being pickled, raining the bomblets over a wide area. Obviously, the higher the CBU is released, the greater area that will be covered and the more likely that friendly forces close by will be hit by ‘friendly fire.’ The 604th screamed in low and dropped CBUs right over the VC; a truly devastating experience that not many lived to tell about. Since Vietnam combat tours were mainly one year assignments, by December 1967, the Air Force personnel system realized that come summer of ’68, all the 604th pilots would leave, taking their invaluable A-37 combat experience with them. If that scenario played out, a new group of pilots would have to re-learn the lessons already inscribed in the Raps corporate knowledge. Thus it came to be that John Gay escaped from second pilot training in the McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II and strapped on the A-37. Gay states, “Around December ’67, a call came into George and MacDill Air Force Bases for 12 lieutenants to leave F-4 training and go into A-37s at England AFB, Louisiana. I was being trained as a backseat pilot in the F-4 – the USAF had too many pilots and not enough F-4s to go around at that time. “I didn’t want to be a co-pilot in a fighter, I wanted to fly my own fighter so I volunteered for the –37 assignment.” At England AFB, Gay flew a two-month course learning the A-37. After that, it was off to South Vietnam where he arrived at Bien Hoa, near Long Binh in the south-central part of the country. “My first night there, I was given a disassembled cot and an empty footlocker. Those were the furnishings for my part of a two-man room in a four-room hooch. As I put my stuff together, I noticed the older heads all had sandbags piled up around their areas. “What are those for?” I asked them. “You’ll find out,” they told me. “Sure enough, that night I did. The VC rocketed the base, sending in several rounds of high explosive, hoping to hit something or someone valuable. They rarely succeeded, but it was enough to make a believer out of me. I built a bunker under my cot to where I could just roll off and in and have some protection when the incoming started. I also put up sandbags around my area.” “I got to Vietnam in April, 1968. The squadron flew the hell out of me and the other new arrivals because they had only a few months to get us up to speed before the old heads rotated home. After one local area orientation flight, I was called ‘combat ready’ and started flying missions. “They wanted to get me flight lead qualified so I flew nearly every day and on many days several ‘go’s. To show you the difference in experience levels between the original cadre of 604th pilots and the next group, when the old guys left, the average flying hours were 4,500. Immediately after they left, the average dropped to 1,800.” By June, Gay had over 60 combat hours and was very comfortable in the little jet. Low Ceiling, High Pucker Factor On the 2d, he was scheduled to lead a pre-planned close air support (CAS) mission on the following day. That would be his 56th combat mission in two months. “We’d find out the night before what our schedule was for the following day. The squadron would get its part, the ‘frag,’ of the Air Tasking Order for the next day’s planned air activity over the entire country. At Seventh Air Force, the planners would work with the ground forces to ensure that any planned ground operations had air support available. Those missions were called pre-planned. “The other type of CAS we flew was ‘alert.’ This meant that the squadron kept a four-ship of jets ready for immediate take-off to deal with any unplanned ground missions such as occurred frequently in Vietnam. A platoon could be moving out in a supposedly safe area and start taking fire from concealed VC. The alert birds would launch and support those guys. For this fateful day, Gay was ‘fragged’ to lead a two-ship for a pre-planned CAS mission. “We’d brief about 2-2 ½ hours prior to take-off. As the flight lead, I covered the admin stuff – weather, expected winds in the target area, we’d review the ROE (Rules of Engagement: the politically derived ‘do’s and don’t’s’ of war), current code words, go over contingencies like who’d do what to cover the search and rescue effort, things like that. “Then we’d discuss the likely tactics we expected to use based on the weather and other expected restrictions. If we had to fly a long way to get to the target, we usually climbed to cruise in the 20’s, then shut down an engine to save gas. That gave us both a longer range and more loiter time over the target. However, during thunderstorm season, the Vietnamese version of thunderstorms could build unbelievably fast. They could build faster than we could climb, so we might have to pick our way through them since the A-37 cockpit was unpressurized and couldn’t climb over them. “Once we finished the brief, we put on our gear and stepped to the jets.” Gay’s typical combat gear consisted of a standard green flightsuit, a g-suit, a survival vest, a USAF-issued .38 cal revolver, parachute harness, helmet and gloves. In the hot, intensely humid climate, sweat was a constant factor. Additionally, the A-37 A-model’s air conditioner was underwhelming. It got pretty steamy in the cockpit so canopies were left open until turning onto the active runway. Gay continues, “My wingman for this sortie was Capt. Don “Tommy” Thomas, one of the old heads in the squadron. Tommy was a fantastic bomber and could fly with the best. I felt good about this one. “We took off and headed for our pre-planned target. We were both carrying two 500lb ‘snakes,’ bombs with pop open fins to retard their fall. That meant we could drop from a lower altitude and not have to worry about blast damage from our own bombs. We also had two 250lb. ‘ladyfingers,’ so named because of their long, delicate appearance and two canisters of napalm, each weighing about 750lbs. On the fourth pylon on each wing, we carried an additional fuel tank along with the tip tanks. “While we were en-route, we got a call from a forward air control O-2, Tamale 12. He wanted us to push it up since he was FAC’ing for an Army battalion that was taking heavy fire from two sides. He gave us a DME for our rendezvous point. Tommy and I bent the throttles and got there ASAP. “Unfortunately and unusually for South Vietnam in that time of the year, there was a low cloud deck below us. When we arrived overhead, we couldn’t see anything and told Tamale 12 that. “He popped up above the deck, we got a visual on him and followed him down. “We came out of the soup at about 1,200 feet. Most of southern Vietnam is flat, delta area covered with jungle and grass, crisscrossed by numerous rivers and canals. “Because of the flat terrain, we weren’t too worried about smacking into anything dirt-related, but there wasn’t a whole of maneuvering room over the area. That was bad because the ground troops predicament was awful. “They were in the corner of a ‘T’ formed by the intersection of two canals. They were taking heavy, sustained fire from two sides across the canals. They couldn’t pull back due to the heavy fire and they couldn’t go forward or sideways because of the water. There were nearly 400 guys essentially surrounded in that ‘T.’ “We could see plainly where the bad guys were from the intensive fire they were dishing out. The red tracers were nearly solid into the grunts’ positions. Even though the weather was below our minimums for dropping, Tommy wanted to press and the FAC was practically begging, so we did. “Tamale rolled in and fired a smoke into the VC’s position, but we didn’t really need it, the muzzle flashes were that visible. “Tommy and I set up our runs so that as I was in-bound about to pickle, he’d be set up, ready to start his approach from the other direction. Essentially, I was working on one canal, he was working the other. On each run, we had to overfly the Army’s position. Not something we liked doing, but in this case we had no choice. They were in a world of hurt and wanted our help now! “So, in a limited area with only a thousand feet from the ground to the cloud layer, we had three airplanes circling, spotting targets and trying not to have a mid-air. “I’d go in, pickle one bomb and pull up, climbing and yanking to avoid the intense return fire. As I was pulling around, Tommy was rolling in to do his thing on his side. “The FAC relayed from the Army troops to ‘keep it up! ‘You are nailing them!’ “We always tried to fly a curvilinear approach. In other words, we wanted to have a constantly changing altitude, airspeed and angle presented to the VC gunners to complicate their aiming solution. However, with the low hanging clouds, we couldn’t pull off as far as we liked and still maintain visual on the fight. “I have no idea why I did it, but after pulling up on one run, I rolled inverted just at the base of the clouds. I could then keep everything in sight and pull back on the stick to start my run. With the A-37’s big canopy, I had a great view of the situation. “I’d roll right side up just prior to pickling, rack the jet into a hard turn and as I climbed, roll inverted again. “Tommy saw me doing that and copied me for his last few runs. “The troops were eating up what we were doing because the volume of fire they were taking was slacking off immensely, but we still had ordnance so we kept pounding the VC. “We finally told the FAC that we were RTB. The VC had taken a beating and were leaving and the Army moved forward. They passed to the FAC who passed to us the BDA (bomb damage assessment – the report card for that mission): over 300 enemy KIA. They also passed on their gratitude and thanks for sticking around!” “As I said earlier, Tommy was one of the best bombers in the squadron. He told me that my inverted tactic was a nice move. The squadron thought so too and put us both in for a Distinguished Flying Cross. That was nice, but it was better knowing that we’d saved some GIs lives out there. The Air Force denied the medals by the way. “I flew another mission the next day. Wound up flying 336 missions and 443 combat hours before I rotated home as an A-37 instructor pilot.” Sometimes the Dragon Wins Not all A-37 missions went flawlessly. Sometimes the bad guys scored against the Raps and good men went down. Some were rescued and lived to fight another day, some were hit but flew home. And some didn’t come back at all. Numerous A-37 pilots died in the steaming jungles and rice paddies of Southeast Asia. On September 21, 1968, John Gay was one of those hit. On yet another CAS mission for TIC, his A-37 took machinegun fire while pulling off target. “On what turned out to be my last pass, just after I dropped, I racked the jet into a more than 90 degree bank and started climbing, looking back over my shoulder, my cockpit blew up and the jet rolled onto its back. “I was still pretty near the ground and stunned. My wingman, Lt Terry Hunt radioed me to pull up. I did, but was still pretty shaken up. My canopy had big holes and starred areas, my rightside electrical panel (across the cockpit) was a mess and my leg hurt like hell. “I told Terry that I was hit in the leg. He said ‘fly the jet, deal with it later.’ I was still pretty low to the ground and he wanted me to gain some altitude in case I had to eject. “As I took stock of the situation, I pieced together what had happened. As I pulled off and bent the jet around, .30 caliber rounds hit the side of the airplane. Since I was pointing my wing at the ground at the time, the rounds entered the side of the cockpit and canopy and not the bottom of the jet. One round hit the gear T-handle and shattered the bullet. Part of the fragment went into my thigh and the rest hit the electrical panel, taking out most of my circuit breakers. “I had rolled inverted because after dropping a bomb from one side, I was now asymmetrically loaded and the jet rolled to that side. Of course, taking my hands off the controls when I first got hit probably didn’t help the situation. “I wasn’t hit that bad, so I tied a handkerchief around my leg, Terry and I headed home. We recovered, debriefed the mission to the intel guy, had the flight doc treat my leg, and headed to the squadron bar.” Better Lucky Than Good In two unusual post-scripts to this mission, John Gay found out the impact of earlier mission to the troops on the ground. “About two months after this, I got a call to go see the commander in his office. That is never a good thing, so as I hustled over there, I racked my brain to see what I could have done wrong. “He told me and Tommy that we’d both been awarded the Silver Star for our earlier mission. The US Army commander had taken it upon himself to write us up for saving his battalion’s bacon. That really meant a lot to me.” Later, in another touching, unbelievable coincidence, John was on an R & R trip to Honolulu waiting on his wife to fly in from the States. Killing time in a bar, he and a young Army grunt started sharing ‘Nam stories. Finding out that John was an A-37 pilot, the PFC started telling him about “this one time we were pinned down at these canals when some A-37s just saved our asses!” As more details spilled out, the soldier had been a member of the pinned down unit and John was indeed, the A-37 that saved his posterior. Retired as a colonel after thirty years in the Air Force, John is now a grandfather. As he finished his story, he recalls, “I drank for free that day.”

brabus can speak for himself, but this is the part of the Honor Guard job that I'm fairly sure he was referring to. Being the toy AF soldiers for CSAF at protocol functions and the like would be pretty 'light in the loafers.' If I'm wrong regarding his intent, then sorry......

Both. FAA and Air Force Flight Standards Agency based at OKC. It is a joint (not sure if in the traditional, joint job meaning) agreement between FAA and USAF. FAA does most of the CONUS stuff, AFFSA does some CONUS and all the overseas stuff- ensuring/recommending airfields and associated procedures meet DoD needs. Edited to add: I wouldn't have wanted to do the Honor Guard thing either, but the gayness factor disappears when you see this captain presenting the folded flag to the young wife or the mom of a guy who paid the full tab for Uncle Sam. It is a gut-wrenching thing to watch, I couldn't imagine doing it every day.

BTDT. First gig as a Reservist was as an 84; like most AF jobs, it was 80% queep, but bits of it were very interesting. Also, almost all AD slots have/are being converted to civilian. Most AD slots are/were for enlisted as well.

I'm not advocating any of these except for the Olmstead thing; that is a seriously good deal for the rest of one's life..... Just adding to the 'weird jobs' database.

Air attache (couldn't figure out the special character to put the gay French-ification over the last 'e'). Some require a rated officer (and you get some flying time), some do not. You can get some kick ass language training prior to the posting at Monteray. Some great countries, some not so much..... Olmstead scholarship (not a 'job' exactly, but a damn good 2-3 year assignment) - been way too long since I knew the details but - you get sent to play student at almost any university in the world with language training ahead of time if req'd, then back to the States to get a US equivalent. Exchange officer with a multitude of countries - usually, but not always, for rated types Liaison/exchange with most of the other US Government Departments. Imagine being an exchange bro at State - "F*ck 'em, drop on 'em! That'll speed up the negotiations!" Air Force Honor Guard CC 'Football' carrier for the Pres Just some that spring to mind.......

Looking at post-USAF retirement spots. St George or Kanab look awesome, asking if anyone has spent time at either place? No, I am not basing my decision on any info gathered here, but a few data points will be useful as I can't get out there for several more months to see for myself. Anyone been there?

Umm, isn't that what the U-2 does? Couldn't resist..................

Huggyu2, Outstanding pics! Thanks for sharing; a very different perspective there. Re astronaut wings; I believe 50 miles up is the line to earn those wings. Besides those riding rockets, a couple of the X-15 guys won them that way. I stand to be corrected on the altitude limit by someone doing a google search, however.

Very cool pic!