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Thats where the traditional bars part company... there is no HAVE to hang out, you should WANT to hang out. Not all day, not all night, not get shitty after work all the time, but have one, tell a story and roll out = perfect.

Look, I get it, especially in the airlift world - youre one the road and/or deployed 250 days a year. You do EVERYTHING together while on the road and deployed, when youre home its family time. I get it.

I dont have any problem with the family guys not hanging out, but when they are outside the bro network and pissed about it, wondering why no one ever calls them, they never hear about anything going on, or no one wants to fly with them, they have no one to blame but themselves...

Chuck

Bingo. I have a wife and two kids and spend pretty much every weekend hanging out with them, which is what I want to do. But Friday afternoons and night flights I'm cracking a brew and staying at the squadron. This is not a normal job where we work and go home, at least it isn't for me. I want to be there talking about flights & hanging with the bros, these guys are my friends. I don't have some other cool group of civilian friends I want to go be with, I like hanging out with the same guys I work with. I think a mandatory fee if I don't show up is pretty gay, but I understand the desire to cultivate a culture. My old squadron tried several times unsucessfully to mandate fun but it just doesn't work. My current squadron is an FTU and they always suck for students. The right answer is what Chuck said: dudes who don't want to hang out, single or married, just aren't part of the bro network. And they should know why.

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Well, as far as the Bomber community goes, I can say that we raise some serious hell at the Barkatraz every friday, at least the red tag fellas. Deployments get out of control...fist fights, wrestling matches in the street, stealing base vehicles, loosing base vehicles for a week or so.

At home, we also add stories to the book, piss people off, fist fight, and sing songs that would make a shoeclerk go mad. The new catholic father on base had the great idea of visiting each squadron at their roll calls (our Friday SQ bar push, others may call it different) to get to know people, and of course, we were extra double-tity vulgar and that did the trick. Apparently he had not heard of our roll calls.

...The S&M man, the S&M man, the S&M man makes the hurt feel good makes the hurt feel good...

Tradition is alive at KBAD, shoeclerks can suck it

:beer:

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My squadron doesn't have a bar...but we're building one! Somewhere in the midst of a shitstorm in my Sq, the temp leadership decided to turn the room with some tables and a long counter-top back into a squadron bar, instead of the study/computer/daycare/wive's club room it has been since I arrived on station.

Funds were raised before we stepped out the door, real plans had been drawn up (the DO had them hanging in his office, for discussion/recommendation from all of us) and we were having frosty fridays with mandatory attendance ($1 to the bar if you were absent without a reasonable excuse, like flying or leave). A recent email from my FLT/CC said they were actually building stuff in there. The plan is to welcome us home from the desert with kegs in the new Squadron Bar.

Before this, every flight room was a bar after about 1500. The fridges were always stocked by the newbies in the shop, and as long as we weren't walking around the squadron with a beer, the leadership promised that we wouldn't get any flak for it. After a flight, drop the bags, grab a beer to take to debrief.

All this in an airlift squadron. Take THAT fighter guys!

Interesting...in our squadron, you get questions if you AREN'T walking around the squadron with a beer past about 1500 on a Friday. And this is prior to the "roll call" in the bar.

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SNAP talk abounds these days! If you've been gone, have family duties or are just worn out - don't show up on Friday. However, it is part of your job to spread camaraderie with your brothers in arms. If you skip out on part of your job, you have to pay a fine. If any USAF member on flight pay can't afford the $1 fine, you've got bigger issues. SUCK IT UP and pay the money, it helps keep the bar running for those in your squadron that care about traditions. Consider it your tax for being in a flying squadron and not keeping up the heritage! :banghead:

My first squadron charged $5 if you weren't there, but noone bitched because that's part of the job. Like someone else said, stay for one beer/coke/story/whatever - but show some support.

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I don't care if you do have a family at home (I do), that doesn't excuse you from hanging out on a Friday at least for a while. There is no requirement for you to get hammered/roll into your house puking, but shit, who eats dinner before 6 anyways? You should still have plenty of time to have a few, bullshit with your bros and then be home by dinner. If you can't even do that, then you are part of the problem and it will be noticed.

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If I came home on a Friday not smelling like Jack Daniels and/or beer, my wife would probably think something was wrong. That's not to say I drink every Friday or certainly every day, but as Eagle said, it is part of your job--show some support. I say it's part of your duty. When the beer light is turned on, as far as I'm concerned, that is a direct order from the boss to drop what I'm doing and go get ripped. My only care in the world at that point is that someone got there first and already started making popcorn.

contraildash, I don't want to stir up the shit, but damn...the occasional F-bomb? You guys are nucking futs!

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When the beer light is turned on, as far as I'm concerned, that is a direct order from the boss to drop what I'm doing and go get ripped

Haha, that is quite possible the best thing I've ever read on this site. I'm puting that in my sig, I hope you don't mind...and if you do, fuck you I'm doing it anyways (sts)! Contrail, how many "fuck"s do I have left in the bar? Is there some sort of tally sheet or is it purely just a time issue and I have to wait 6-9 min between each "fuck"? Just wondering.

Edited by brabus

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I can say that we raise some serious hell at the Barkatraz every friday

I don't know about your SQs, but I can vouch for that at Hanger 2 (or whatever it's called). Hell, I was a maintainer at the time, and still went every Friday and got fucked-up, sang, cussed, and (at a minimum) got the Vice's attention...he even pulled me off the stage a few times.

I'm pretty disappointed in my current SQ bar. I tried a few times to get people to have a drink on Friday (there's always a Keg on tap) and it was like pulling teeth. I think most of the ones that would have a drink were kicking it up in Seattle or on missions... Might be different now, I haven't been back there in a while.

By the way, this is the best thread we've had in a while. I'd much rather bullshit about the state of the SQ bar then see yet another thread where people are having a pissing contest about politics. Lets have more threads about flying, fighting, drinking, fucking and maybe guns...cars and bikes are good too...

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...and if your family doesn't understand, you've fucked up somewhere along the way. Go get your wife some remedial training (sts) so she'll let you hang out 'til 6 (GASP!) on a Friday night.

Case in point: I came home last Wednesday (the 23rd...Christmas Eve was a PACAF family day) after hanging for a while at the bar. As I walk through the door around 1836 and kiss the wife, she says "you smell like BEER! GOOD JOB!" Ah...she's a keeper.

("I love my wife, yes I do, yes I do...I love her truuuuuuuuuuely...")

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Interesting...in our squadron, you get questions if you AREN'T walking around the squadron with a beer past about 1500 on a Friday. And this is prior to the "roll call" in the bar.

The reason they didn't want us walking around with beers anymore was because the MX O's were coming down to our end of the building bitching about how their guys still had to work. Boo hoo

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[...] And I'm not going to pay some arbitrary amount for every week missed if I paid my landing fees in full; F that in the a$$.[...]

I'd throw the BS-flag pic in here, but I don't feel like looking for it.

EvilEagle touched on this but I wanted to drive this to a conclusion: It's not about the $1 (or whatever easily afforded fine your sq has). It's about YOU looking your Flt/CC in the eye and saying, "I cannot hang with the bros and contribute to the sq's comraderie and morale tonight". Not necc anything to feel bad about: I've skipped out on a whole quarter's worth of roll calls when I felt that home was where I needed to be at the time.

But when word gets through the wive's network that there's a RC, my wife reminds ME and plans accordingly without prompt or IP intervention.

It's not about the $. If you think it is, you're missing the point.

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I guess I have mixed views on the squadron bar as a young guy who didn't have the benefit of witnessing the traditions of old...

On the other hand, a much as you almost need to make things mandatory these days to get folks to show up, if I'm a grown man with a wife and kids, there is no reason I should have to stay at work longer than necessary for the sake of hanging out. And I'm not going to pay some arbitrary amount for every week missed if I paid my landing fees in full; F that in the a$$...

...after a long day at work sometimes I'm not that interested in anything other than going home...

...Throw on that my general lack of appreciation for what I see as some of the more fighter-type traditions (bar fights, excessive hazing, etc.) and I don't honestly know what the right solution is...

No wonder you're having trouble getting people to hang out after work.

If you're an Lt in your squadron, then it's 100% your fault if people aren't excited about roll calls, roof stomps, and generally getting hammered. Especially with an attitude like "but I had a long day..." Those things don't happen every Friday and they damn sure don't happen everyday. Even the married guys, with families, who don't drink should be pumped about shit like that.

Grow a pair, throw a party, and tell your wife to be ready to go out when you're done at the Sq bar.

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my general lack of appreciation for what I see as some of the more fighter-type traditions

.... ahhhh, yes, I think I see the problem right here.....

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I'd throw the BS-flag pic in here, but I don't feel like looking for it.

EvilEagle touched on this but I wanted to drive this to a conclusion: It's not about the $1 (or whatever easily afforded fine your sq has). It's about YOU looking your Flt/CC in the eye and saying, "I cannot hang with the bros and contribute to the sq's comraderie and morale tonight". Not necc anything to feel bad about: I've skipped out on a whole quarter's worth of roll calls when I felt that home was where I needed to be at the time.

But when word gets through the wive's network that there's a RC, my wife reminds ME and plans accordingly without prompt or IP intervention.

It's not about the $. If you think it is, you're missing the point.

You're assuming there's such a thing as a roll call in the first place. If there was some kind of official, periodic event where everyone hung out, that's different than just hanging around the bar on Friday because you want to. Mandatory fun is had and I have attended. Plus I'm pretty sure we've got the whole hanging out with the guys things down after the 6-9 deployments/TDYs/exercises everyone's done so it's not an issue of morale or not being one of the boys. My point was that I was unsure how the old-time traditions of the fighter squadron bar would translate to my current squadron considering the way things are now.

No wonder you're having trouble getting people to hang out after work.

If you're an Lt in your squadron, then it's 100% your fault if people aren't excited about roll calls, roof stomps, and generally getting hammered.

Wait, I don't remember reading that in the job description. I thought my job as an LT was to listen, learn the ropes, study tactics and systems, take care of the squadron (i.e. trash, moping, stocking the bar, etc.), and hack the mish as hard as possible. That's what my flt/cc briefed anyways. I can honestly and truthfully say it is not my job to start traditions from scratch and it is not my job to encourage people to hang out at the squadron after work and drink. If those things are going to occur, it's gonna be the SQ leadership's job to ...lead... us to that end.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to call blasphemy on not having RCs or roof stomps or beer lights etc. when you have all those things, everyone in your squadron expects these things, and you accept them as part of AF dogma. When none of those assumptions are true however, it's harder to see how you can integrate the AF traditions without requiring a massive shift in mindset that goes beyond the powers of a lowly LT.

I'm not posting here to say I'm against the traditional fighter bar setup, I'm more saying that parts of that tradition are freaking great (passing on wartime knowledge, camaraderie, informal leadership, etc.) and I want to figure out how to bring that to my squadron. At the same time though I'm saying mandatory fines, hazing people, starting fights, expecting people to stay for hours extra after work and etc. will not fly with me and I'm betting won't fly with the rest of the guys who are getting ridden hard by the J.O.B. And about saying "fighter-type traditions;"not trying to stir the pot here, just stating the fact that we are not a fighter/bomber squadron and 99% of the people here, including me, are cool with that. Suggestions welcome.

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nsplayr, you are obviously not familiar with the Beer Light/ Roll Call/ Hang at the Bar on Friday/ whatever it's called locally. As most have said already, it is not your duty to stay at work all night and get tanked. That's not what it's about, though it has been done. It's not about mandatory fun. The way ours is structured is that around 1530 on a friday (well within normal duty hours) everyone goes to the bar, roll is taken by each FLT/CC or someone, and those who choose to imbibe crack a beer (usually we bring a half a beer in with us and crack number 2 by the time roll call is complete. ymmv). The commander starts it off, rarely with serious business, people tell flying stories from the week, for the rest of us to learn from, maybe someone tells a funny story, or an old war story. Those who bring serious work-related announcements are fined. This all lasts about 30 minutes. Then...DEUCES! Go home! You're out of work by, the latest, 1600 on friday. So after all this mandatory fun, taking extra time out of your awful, tiresome work day, and fortunes from your coffers, you still get to punch out early.

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nsplayr, you are obviously not familiar with the Beer Light/ Roll Call/ Hang at the Bar on Friday/ whatever it's called locally. As most have said already, it is not your duty to stay at work all night and get tanked. That's not what it's about, though it has been done. It's not about mandatory fun. The way ours is structured is that around 1530 on a friday (well within normal duty hours) everyone goes to the bar,

That quote had to stop right there....

The reason being (nsplayr I identify with your dilemma) is that at 1530 on a Friday 60% of some squadrons (read AFSOC) are just starting their flight duty period. The other 35% of the squadron is deployed (if not more), 3% of the squadron is TDY/Leave, and the remaining 2% are just too beat up to care about hanging out drinking with each other while everyone else is pre-flighting/briefing, etc. I'm just making up percentages to illustrate a point, but it is hard to do these things when everyone flies at night. Only a small few want to sit around after debrief and have another beer at 3am on Friday night.

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Guest Rubber_Side_Down

I understand a bit of what nsplayer is saying. It's hard to find that comfort zone between outright stealing fighter squadron traditions, and creating something that will have longevity in a non-fighter community. I don't think roof stomps or beer lights should be specific to fighter squadrons, but when you get to the point where an OSS for an airlift squadron is doing "bucket ops," having written ROE, and doling out the "bone award" to the support shoe clerks, it feels forced and fake. That happy medium is hard to find. You want to motivate and have tradition, but there's got to be a way to do it short of plagiarizing from our pointy-nosed brethren.

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Wait, I don't remember reading that in the job description. I thought my job as an LT was to listen, learn the ropes, study tactics and systems, take care of the squadron (i.e. trash, moping, stocking the bar, etc.), and hack the mish as hard as possible. That's what my flt/cc briefed anyways. I can honestly and truthfully say it is not my job to start traditions from scratch and it is not my job to encourage people to hang out at the squadron after work and drink. If those things are going to occur, it's gonna be the SQ leadership's job to ...lead... us to that end.

Like I said, no wonder you're having trouble getting guys to hang out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to call blasphemy on not having RCs or roof stomps or beer lights etc. when you have all those things, everyone in your squadron expects these things, and you accept them as part of AF dogma. When none of those assumptions are true however, it's harder to see how you can integrate the AF traditions without requiring a massive shift in mindset that goes beyond the powers of a lowly LT.

Then find something else for the squadron to do. If you're sitting on your ass (listening and mopping the floors) then don't whine about the lack of people willing to hang out. It is the lowly Lt's job to plan and encourage shit like that. If you think you're too busy studying to plan or promote squadron extra curriculars then how can you expect the leadership to have time for it?

I'm not posting here to say I'm against the traditional fighter bar setup, I'm more saying that parts of that tradition are freaking great (passing on wartime knowledge, camaraderie, informal leadership, etc.) and I want to figure out how to bring that to my squadron.

You can't (or won't) even come up with ways to get guys excited about squadron boozing. You think comaraderie is just going to fall out of the sky? It has to start somewhere. With comaraderit comes informal bullshitting and war stories. With war stories comes informal leadership. Keep telling yourself it's not in your job description and then wonder why it's not happening.

At the same time though I'm saying mandatory fines, hazing people, starting fights, expecting people to stay for hours extra after work and etc. will not fly with me and I'm betting won't fly with the rest of the guys who are getting ridden hard by the J.O.B. And about saying "fighter-type traditions;"not trying to stir the pot here, just stating the fact that we are not a fighter/bomber squadron and 99% of the people here, including me, are cool with that. Suggestions welcome.

Ok, let me get this straight. You aren't in a fighter/bomber squadron and you're bitching about fighter type traditions? If you're mopping the floors and taking out the trash as part of your job description then you and I are on the same level of hazing. There are no squadron bar fights and I'm not required to stay for hours after work for mandatory fun. Stop worrying about 'fighter type traditions' since you clearly don't know what they are anyway.

My suggestion would be to quit whinning, grow up, and make it happen.

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That quote had to stop right there....

The reason being (nsplayr I identify with your dilemma) is that at 1530 on a Friday 60% of some squadrons (read AFSOC) are just starting their flight duty period. The other 35% of the squadron is deployed (if not more), 3% of the squadron is TDY/Leave, and the remaining 2% are just too beat up to care about hanging out drinking with each other while everyone else is pre-flighting/briefing, etc. I'm just making up percentages to illustrate a point, but it is hard to do these things when everyone flies at night. Only a small few want to sit around after debrief and have another beer at 3am on Friday night.

I'm done beating my head against the wall with you AFSOC dudes. The guys I know in AFSOC are a lot more fun than you guys. I'm glad I'm a trash hauler. Looks like I'm not missing much in the Florida panhandle.

And you have the beer DURING debrief.

Edited by outbreak

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The reason being (nsplayr I identify with your dilemma) is that at 1530 on a Friday 60% of some squadrons (read AFSOC) are just starting their flight duty period. The other 35% of the squadron is deployed (if not more), 3% of the squadron is TDY/Leave, and the remaining 2% are just too beat up to care about hanging out drinking with each other while everyone else is pre-flighting/briefing, etc. I'm just making up percentages to illustrate a point, but it is hard to do these things when everyone flies at night. Only a small few want to sit around after debrief and have another beer at 3am on Friday night.

This is part of the problem. Beer light times don't work so well when that's the start of your flight duty day.

I understand a bit of what nsplayer is saying. It's hard to find that comfort zone between outright stealing fighter squadron traditions, and creating something that will have longevity in a non-fighter community. I don't think roof stomps or beer lights should be specific to fighter squadrons, but when you get to the point where an OSS for an airlift squadron is doing "bucket ops," having written ROE, and doling out the "bone award" to the support shoe clerks, it feels forced and fake. That happy medium is hard to find. You want to motivate and have tradition, but there's got to be a way to do it short of plagiarizing from our pointy-nosed brethren.

This is also the problem. Attempting to take the best of the old traditions without looking like a shoe-poser that's singing fighter pilot songs in a non-fighter pilot bar.

You can't (or won't) even come up with ways to get guys excited about squadron boozing. You think comaraderie is just going to fall out of the sky? It has to start somewhere. With comaraderit comes informal bullshitting and war stories. With war stories comes informal leadership. Keep telling yourself it's not in your job description and then wonder why it's not happening.

Reread the part about camaraderie not being the problem. There about 1.5 million hours to hang out with the guys on deployments/TDYs/etc. And good times are had. I'm trying to bring that kind of stuff home, but the problems are logistical (lots of night flying, the bar can't possibly hold even 1/3 of the squadron at a time) and in people's heads (i.e. it's not expected that anyone stay, dudes wanna spend family time, some dudes have literally never met each other after more than 1 year in the sq because of rapid growth and/or opposite deployment cycles, the boss isn't exactly out there leading a roll call to make it mandatory, etc.)

My suggestion would be to quit whinning, grow up, and make it happen.

Look, telling me to sack up and make it happen is not feasible. Your advice is missing my point and not very helpful; I didn't post here to listen to advice I could have come up with on my own. I'm done with this thread in terms of posting...not an issue worth fighting for.

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Reread the part about camaraderie not being the problem. There about 1.5 million hours to hang out with the guys on deployments/TDYs/etc. And good times are had. I'm trying to bring that kind of stuff home, but the problems are logistical (lots of night flying, the bar can't possibly hold even 1/3 of the squadron at a time) and in people's heads (i.e. it's not expected that anyone stay, dudes wanna spend family time, some dudes have literally never met each other after more than 1 year in the sq because of rapid growth and/or opposite deployment cycles, the boss isn't exactly out there leading a roll call to make it mandatory, etc.)

That's fine. Some squadrons are like that. If that's how the squadron is and you take the attitude of "that's not in my job description" then don't expect people to hang out. The whining about fighter pilot traditions and complaining that nobody hangs out is a waste of time.

Look, telling me to sack up and make it happen is not feasible.

If the squadron is always gone or flying nights and you won't take up the responsibility then don't complain about bar life.

Your advice is missing my point and not very helpful; I didn't post here to listen to advice I could have come up with on my own.

The squadron is too busy to hang out, the person who should be planning things won't do it, and you don't want anything to do with your perceived notion of fighter pilot traditions. What exactly were you expecting to hear for advice? If you don't like the way things are running then make an effort. If the squadron is too busy and it's 'not in your job description' then you have no room to complain.

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nsplayer, I empathize and understand the dilemma. il I was at Hurby for a while as an Exec and I remember more than a few Fridays handling paperwork until the wee hours of Saturday morning so guys could take off and START their training missions. That said, if there were some way to "force" a mandatory roll call/beer call at SOME time, it could work wonders to promote more camaraderie, pass on some informal lessons learned, and inspire informal leadership.

If you have ever pissed someone off (badly) and you visit Minot AFB, drop me a line and I'll bring you to one of our calls as my guest.

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nsplayer, I empathize and understand the dilemma. il I was at Hurby for a while as an Exec and I remember more than a few Fridays handling paperwork until the wee hours of Saturday morning so guys could take off and START their training missions. That said, if there were some way to "force" a mandatory roll call/beer call at SOME time, it could work wonders to promote more camaraderie, pass on some informal lessons learned, and inspire informal leadership.

Exactly...brute force has been tried before and failed. With a Lt. Col. at the helm because he was a former fighter dude and wanted to see some of that tradition relived. I'm looking for "outside the container" ideas here but it may or may not be a pipe dream.

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Guest TheBurt

I'm looking for "outside the container" ideas here but it may or may not be a pipe dream.

I got an idea for you. Quit being such a ing .

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I got an idea for you. Quit being such a fucking pussy.

2 on that. I smell a nasty, rotten vagina in the house. Makes me wanna puke.

Instead of complaining, get the family involved. Drop the kids off somewhere, let the wife out of the kitchen and have her meet you at the bar. And a few other wives or girlfriends. We are never ones to kick bitches out of the bar (only strippers and midgets are allowed to stay during Roll Call). Hell, your wife is probably already sleeping with half the squadron anyway (fighter pilot humor). Shit, bring your mom too. I kind of like older women as it is. Once your mom/wife have had time to socialize with better men than yourself, have them give said better men rides home to change then out to the clubs. Is all that fighter pilot tradition? No, I think it's just a bunch of friends having a good time together. Of course, if you're flying on Friday, why not make it Saturday evening? BVR SOS and your Masters are the ONLY reasons you're allowed to miss.

But I can see that not taking hold in AFSOC...after all, it is full of "special" heavy pilots...

Edited by Vetter

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