Navigator and Weapon System Officer (WSO) info

[magnetfreezer]

2...Nav school will finally become like UPT in a sense. your top 5-8% of the class will get pointy-nosed strike assignments...that's it.

Have dreams, by all means. Just don't forget that 'WACers and RJ's need navs too...and will take their fair share from every class.

4

Heard the AWACS and tankers are slowly phasing out navs; in addition with the combined nav/EWO curriculum RJ CSOs should get to do some of the fun stuff in the back (sts).

[skinny]

I am absolutely aware that not everyone is going to drop a dark grey, that's a big reason why I initially asked the AFSOC question. I'm not going to be the guy that shows up thinking I've got a 15E in the bag and then cry when I drop an RJ. Rather, I want to be the guy that busts his ass trying for the 15E, but is happy with his second choice, whatever it may be when the beagle doesn't work out.

Thank you again to everyone for the information. A huge help in my decision making. Cheers...

[drewpey]

Conventional war is over. Put away the nukes, the big bombs, the heavy armor. From here on out, its grubby guys with knives and guns.

Just to reiterate, each platform is in the US inventory for a reason. We still need strategic bombers and fighters. The big picture is that in war we don't always want to bust down the door kicking teeth in and breaking everyone's toys.

I guess that is exactly the threat that China is hoping to counter with the SC-19, the J-10, SU-30s, their new carrier. BOY are they going to be embarrased when they see how much cheaper it is to give the grubby guy a knife.

Edit: The more I thought about it, the more it seems that the Iranians and North Koreans are also going to be bummed when they discover that nukes are useless against the grubby guy. He has OAKLEYS!

There will be many conflicts in the future. Not one of these conflicts will you see AFSOC sitting the bench. On the flip side of the coin, many of the future conflicts you will see leadership hesitate and in the end bypass the large-scale confrontation that strategic bombers bring to the table.

Thanks Drewpy, I'm going to sleep better tonight knowing you're out there.

Anytime, anywhere my friend!

[BQZip01]

Just to reiterate, each platform is in the US inventory for a reason. We still need strategic bombers and fighters. The big picture is that in war we don't always want to bust down the door kicking teeth in and breaking everyone's toys.

There will be many conflicts in the future. Not one of these conflicts will you see AFSOC sitting the bench. On the flip side of the coin, many of the future conflicts you will see leadership hesitate and in the end bypass the large-scale confrontation that strategic bombers bring to the table.

If only the Democrats understood that...

Anytime, anywhere my friend!

HUA. I'm well aware of what y'all do. If you're ever in Minot (I dunno, a joint forces training op with the Canucks?), beer's on me.

[Soon To Be E6B]

Does anyone know if the Zoomies and ROTC cadets will now have to compete for the strike nav spots with us lowly OTS guys in the new program?

[magnetfreezer]

Does anyone know if the Zoomies and ROTC cadets will now have to compete for the strike nav spots with us lowly OTS guys in the new program?

Everyone will go through the exact same training. At the end you can drop anything from AWACS nav to RC EWO to F-15E WSO.

[08Dawg]

Everyone will go through the exact same training. At the end you can drop anything from AWACS nav to RC EWO to F-15E WSO.

Yep. There really are no more "strike nav" or "JSUNT" slots in the old sense. Everybody's a CSO now, for better or worse.

[Guest C/Prince]

I'm a cadet interested in getting a nav slot but wanted to know more about what a nav does in specific airframes. If any of you Navs, WSOs and EWOs could let me know what airframe you're in, what a typical day is like there, and any unique opportunities your airframe has to offer, that would be great (without violating OPSEC of course). Much appreciated gents.

[BQZip01]

I'm a cadet interested in getting a nav slot but wanted to know more about what a nav does in specific airframes. If any of you Navs, WSOs and EWOs could let me know what airframe you're in, what a typical day is like there, and any unique opportunities your airframe has to offer, that would be great (without violating OPSEC of course). Much appreciated gents.

I'm an EW in the B-52 (we tend to avoid "EWO" as it could be confused with "Emergency War Order"...those "insignificant" little orders to launch thermonuclear weapons/airframes). A typical day for me is just like any other office. I think what would be better would be to describe my role in the jet. My job is to know the threats we are facing, how to identify them using my sensors and situational awareness, and how to mitigate them and allow us to complete our mission. For a large portion of the mission, I'm pretty much silent and tweak my instruments trying to get the best possible reading on the threats out there, but as one Aircraft Commander (an ENJJPT grad for those interested) told me, "I give the E-dubs a bunch of sh!t for doing nothing but using oxygen 99% of the time, but when we are on a bombing run and the EW says there is a threat out there, his voice is God's, as far as I'm concerned."

The navigators in our jet (we have 2) tell the pilots where to go and are responsible for timing ("What kind of time hack was that, Nav? Where'd you get that time anyway? A microwave?) to and from our areas, aerial refueling, etc, and making sure the weapons are properly preflighted (this includes making sure we aren't carrying nukes...start the jokes now). He keeps us on course as well.

Now if it is worth bombing with a B-52, it is likely worth defending and that means the navs are trying to direct us into an area bristling with aerial defenses as the EW is trying to maneuver the jet away from the same area...makes the pilot's jobs interesting.

A short sortie for us is anything under 6 hours with 8-9 being pretty average. We recently had guys fly to Alaska and back on a 26 hr sortie. Longest one I've been on was 10.2, though that WILL change in the near future.

We have 6 ejection seats on the aircraft. The pilots and the EW eject up (plus one additional seat) and the navs eject down (no, I'm not kidding). We have no fuel dump capability and cannot land safely with heavy loads of fuel, though we can takeoff with them. So if we have an in-flight emergency, our unwritten first step in the boldface is BREAK OUT YOUR LUNCH, cause you're going to be there a while.

If you have any specific questions about the airframe, feel free to PM me (obviously OPSEC will dictate my response).

[08Dawg]

As for the offensive side of the Buff...there are two navs, the radar nav and the nav. The nav does just that, time, speed, course control, typical nav-type duties. He's also the junior of the two (although with the dual seat initial qual thing we have now, the waters are starting to muddy on that point, but that's a different story). The radar is what you might think of as a bombardier in the old WW2 movies. Pretty much responsible for all the weapons on the jet, and ensuring their accurate delivery to the enemy. The radar is also in charge of, you guessed it, the radar, using it to take system updates on position, speed, heading, and such, as well as using it to pinpoint targets. The radar is typically the more senior of the two, second only to the aircraft commander in terms of authority on the crew. Without beating my own drum too much, offense on the Buff drives the mission. Pilots get us where we need to be, EWs get us there and back in one piece, and offense puts the bombs on target, on time.

[Guest arctikpenguin]

As a recent CSO select, I would like to try to resurrect this thread...

Question for those in the know...

Are you more likely to get pickup up for a UPT slot if you are assigned to either F-15E's or B-1's as opposed to C-130's or another heavy platform?

Thanks in advance...I can't wait to get my career started.

[Champ Kind]

I can't wait to get my career started.

Don't be in too big of a hurry. There's plenty of queep waiting for you.

[schokie]

Are you more likely to get pickup up for a UPT slot if you are assigned to either F-15E's or B-1's as opposed to C-130's or another heavy platform?

You're more likely to get picked up for UPT if you do well in whatever aircraft you end up in.

However, step 1 is to finish getting your commission. Step 2 is to graduate from CSO training. Step 3 is to do well wherever you end up. Step 4 is to get picked up for UPT.

Keep your priorities in order.

[BQZip01]

You're more likely to get picked up for UPT if you do well in whatever aircraft you end up in.

However, step 1 is to finish getting your commission. Step 2 is to graduate from CSO training. Step 3 is to do well wherever you end up. Step 4 is to get picked up for UPT.

Keep your priorities in order.

What schokie said is spot on.

[Guest Justshootme]

You're more likely to get picked up for UPT if you do well in whatever aircraft you end up in.

However, step 1 is to finish getting your commission. Step 2 is to graduate from CSO training. Step 3 is to do well wherever you end up. Step 4 is to get picked up for UPT.

Keep your priorities in order.

However, I'll throw a caveat in there. I'd say Bones and Strikes might be a little MORE difficult, simply for the fact you will probably only get 1 shot at a board by the time you've finally reached your Ops unit and served 2 yrs TOS. Just throwin' that out there. I have a bro in F-15E's who commissioned with me and just got to his first assignment in May....over 4 years later.

[BQZip01]

However, I'll throw a caveat in there. I'd say Bones and Strikes might be a little MORE difficult, simply for the fact you will probably only get 1 shot at a board by the time you've finally reached your Ops unit and served 2 yrs TOS. Just throwin' that out there. I have a bro in F-15E's who commissioned with me and just got to his first assignment in May....over 4 years later.

You may want to look into the active duty board restrictions. If memory serves me, you must be no older than 30 and no more than 5 years of active duty. There is an additional 1-year waiver that can be granted by your Wing/CC or equivalent if there are extenuating circumstances leading to you no being able to apply in previous years (I know PLENTY of guys in AFSOC that got this waiver because they were deployed during the last boards and didn't have a chance to apply; others were not yet eligible due to TOS requirements). You should also consider applying at your 1 yr TOS as the class you are picked up for may be AFTER that 2 year mark.

Anyone who knows the regs better than me, feel free to correct me if I'm in error.

[Duster]

However, I'll throw a caveat in there. I'd say Bones and Strikes might be a little MORE difficult, simply for the fact you will probably only get 1 shot at a board by the time you've finally reached your Ops unit and served 2 yrs TOS. Just throwin' that out there. I have a bro in F-15E's who commissioned with me and just got to his first assignment in May....over 4 years later.

Is that the typical time line for someone going to the Strike Eagle? Or did he get caught up in waiting a long time between class start dates (IFS, UNT, IFF, etc)?

[schokie]

Is that the typical time line for someone going to the Strike Eagle? Or did he get caught up in waiting a long time between class start dates (IFS, UNT, IFF, etc)?

That is non-standard. I started the B course a week after pinning on 1Lt. Most other WSOs were on the same timeline. I wasn't casual anywhere and I got through Pcola, IFF, and Survival in an average amount of time. The only thing that makes the pipeline longer than for other platforms is IFF. That's only 2 months.

[Guest Justshootme]

That is non-standard. I started the B course a week after pinning on 1Lt. Most other WSOs were on the same timeline. I wasn't casual anywhere and I got through Pcola, IFF, and Survival in an average amount of time. The only thing that makes the pipeline longer than for other platforms is IFF. That's only 2 months.

You are absolutely right, he was a 'worst case', but even your situation makes my point. My bros from Randolph that went Herks were deploying as 18 month 2LTs. You probably got what, a year at most in your ops sq before pinning on Capt?

[schokie]

You are absolutely right, he was a 'worst case', but even your situation makes my point. My bros from Randolph that went Herks were deploying as 18 month 2LTs. You probably got what, a year at most in your ops sq before pinning on Capt?

About that. I blame the delay on the Navy's training at Pensacola versus the Randolph program. The Navy takes 12 months of training and crams it into a year and a half. I had buddies that started at Randolph 3 months after I started at Pcola, but winged 3 months before me.

The new AF program at Pcola should even all that out.

[lazlo]

I blame the Navy too... But compared to my bros, I went through pretty quick... I'll still be an LT in my first Ops sq for 8 months. (That's both good and bad...) Compare that to a WSO in my class that just put on Capt while in the B-Course. The new Nav program should even it out. They just got rid of the sensor course too...

Edited July 28, 2010 by lazlo

[Duster]

I blame the Navy too... But compared to my bros, I went through pretty quick... I'll still be an LT in my first Ops sq for 8 months. (That's both good and bad...) Compare that to a WSO in my class that just put on Capt while in the B-Course. The new Nav program should even it out. They just got rid of the sensor course too...

This got me to thinking, hasn't the commitment for Nav been only 6 years? Perhaps strike nav is/was different. Figuring you're in a situation where you pin on Captain while you're still in the B-course, doesn't that only put you at maybe a year or so in an ops squadron (assuming you get out at the end of your ADSC)?

[brabus]

This got me to thinking, hasn't the commitment for Nav been only 6 years? Perhaps strike nav is/was different. Figuring you're in a situation where you pin on Captain while you're still in the B-course, doesn't that only put you at maybe a year or so in an ops squadron (assuming you get out at the end of your ADSC)?

Assuming Nav is the same as pilot (which why wouldn't it be, they're both rated positions), you incur your ADSC when you get your wings. So rank doesn't really matter, whenever you graduate UNT/UPT is when the 6 yr/10 yr clock starts ticking.

[Dupe]

Assuming Nav is the same as pilot (which why wouldn't it be, they're both rated positions), you incur your ADSC when you get your wings. So rank doesn't really matter, whenever you graduate UNT/UPT is when the 6 yr/10 yr clock starts ticking.

Brabus is right. Your ADSC for nav/WSO/CSO/EWO/etc starts when you get winged. Timing-wise, it works out so that your commitment is up about when you're done with your second rated assignment and about 7-8 years of service provided you came in the door as a non-prior 2LT.