Navigator and Weapon System Officer (WSO) info

[Guest Monte]

If you don't have your PPL, you'll go to IFS in Pueblo.

I don't think this is true. My IFS class had a guy from Randolph with his PPL, Commercial, and a shit ton of hours. Granted he was done in 3 weeks, but my flight alone had 4 PPL guys.

I think everyone has to go.

As far as when they are going to change the syllabus for Nav and Pilot, who knows...

[Dupe]

The world of those with bug-smasher wings is changing, and changing fast.

Here's my background: I'm a F-15E WSO and now a student at Test Pilot School. When I was in the ops world, I shunned this new 'CSO' label that was being thrust upon the rated navigator world. Now that I've seen a bunch of different systems and how they've been integrated on a variety of different platforms, I'm convinced that CSOs will add much to the fight. For all intensive purposes, the job title of Navigator is now dead. It its place is a person who can operate systems and sensors, target weapons, and increase SA to accomplish the mission.

I'll talk to the F-15E as an example because I can speak to its background most authoritatively. Since 2001, the F-15E has had a new system, sensor, or weapon added to it every 1.5 years. This doesn't even include enhanced capability that has been added by software updates. The most recent update included the ability to drop SDBs. While the SDB still has much growth to do, the F-15E can carry 28 of these little f$#kers. On top of that, each one can have its own seperate fuse setting. Can a single seat pilot even hope to handle that level of data management while maintaining formation, listening up on a few radios (with smaller kits, the number of radios is going up too), and having SA on the ground picture? Variable guidance weapons have been around for a bit but they're just starting to come of age. Laser JDAM is the current iteration, but I don't think we're that far off from a multi-mode weapon that can target coordinates, electronic emmisions, laser designators, or self-target using electro-optics. Operating those systems is surely going to take more than one dude in the jet.

The next thing down the pipe is an AESA radar. AESA radars use lots little tiny transmiter rectifier modules (they're about the size of a 7.62mm casing) instead of a gimbal system to steer the main lobe of the radar. Because its electronicaly scanned, it can move the beam around in the 100s of microseconds time frame. Maybe if the beam moves that fast, the radar can do its traditional roles of air search and targeting and generate synthetic aperature radar maps at the same time rather than having to timeshare the radar between the two functions. If it can do both air search and ground search functions at the same time, will it be possible for one guy to take that all in?

Heck, if I can electronicaly steer a beam of energy with a 2-4 cm wavelength (aka...most air intercept radars), maybe then I can rapidly steer a much narrower beam of coherent light in the .5-10 micro meter range (aka... lasers (sans sharks)). Lasers have a greater range per input power and their beamwidths are so small that angular resolution is a fraction of that of radar.

I haven't even touched on the crazy potential abilities that various data links bring to the fight. This all may seem like crazy mad-scientist talk, but the bottom line is that modern aircraft are able to generate much more data than one dude can currently handle. Sure, increased automation and presentation styles will mitigate some of that, but certainly not all. There is a place for WSOs/CSOs/whatever in the future Air Force....just look at the airplanes that are currently being rapidly-procured.

[Herk Driver]

*This one is new: Navs who become pilots later one, are their careers stunted because they are doing Lt duties in the plane when they are actually in Capt. (Things like, having enough expereince to lead a two-ship, four-ship? etc...) Also, are their careers stunted due the lack of hours/expereince they have compared to other Captains in their unit?

Thanks...

No. For example, the guy that was just named the new 317 AG/CC at Dyess (CoC later this year) is a prior B-52 Nav turned pilot and from what I understand the guy that is named to be a DO in one of the -130 squadrons at Dyess (PCS later this year) is a former Nav turned pilot.

Just a few in addition to the guys that were mentioned above.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Herk Driver

[08Dawg]

The problem isn't with navs, the problem is that you're a whiny bitch who doesn't know how good he has it.

2. I hope when you get to Randolph, some Instructor Nav finds out about your little "navs are the morons of the Air Force" comment, because the ensuing asschewing and general ostrocism is going to be hilarious. I wish you'd just turn in your slot now, and let somebody who will actually appreciate it have their shot, because your attitude sucks.

[BQZip01]

I've seen nothing beyond friendly pilot/WSO rivalry, and for every disparaging remark, I've probably heard 10 "I need a pilot/WSO to answer this question for me".

2!

2. I hope when you get to Randolph, some Instructor Nav finds out about your little "navs are the morons of the Air Force" comment, because the ensuing asschewing and general ostrocism is going to be hilarious. I wish you'd just turn in your slot now, and let somebody who will actually appreciate it have their shot, because your attitude sucks.

Dude, he's frustrated and if that's the kind of attitude his detachment is dishing out, I can't say I blame him. Why don't you try and help the guy out.

[60 driver]

Navs will not be Forward Air Controllers.

This hasn't always been true. Maybe it's different now, but about half of my AGOS (now JFCC) class in the early '90s was F-111 and B-52 nav types. None of them were all that psyched to be there, but that's a different story.

The Brigade ALO when I was a Battalion ALO with the 25th ID in Korea was a B-52 radar nav, as were a couple of other guys I knew who were doing the ALO thing at Ft Polk and Ft Benning. By definition, an ALO is a fully qualified Terminal Air Controller (read FAC), so your statement there isn't (or wasn't at that time) 100% true.

If you meant FAC(A), well then, yeah.

Edited February 2, 2009 by 60 driver

[MD]

This hasn't always been true. Maybe it's different now, but about half of my AGOS (now JFCC) class in the early '90s was F-111 and B-52 nav types. None of them were all that psyched to be there, but that's a different story.

The Brigade ALO when I was a Battalion ALO with the 25th ID in Korea was a B-52 radar nav, as were a couple of other guys I knew who were doing the ALO thing at Ft Polk and Ft Benning. By definition, an ALO is a fully qualified Terminal Air Controller (read FAC), so your statement there isn't (or wasn't at that time) 100% true.

If you meant FAC(A), well then, yeah.

I took him to be referring to FAC(A), which is where I posted the difference between AF and USN. On the ALO side, I knew a good number of them who were Nav-rated guys from various backgrounds, just like your example.

[Guest w002exp]

I took him to be referring to FAC(A), which is where I posted the difference between AF and USN. On the ALO side, I knew a good number of them who were Nav-rated guys from various backgrounds, just like your example.

Thanks for those who have provided kind encouragement and comments. I understand some others of you are upset and I apologize for that. Hopefully improvments in my attitude though are giving you more faith. That is why I am on here to begin with and I am not afraid to take advice and make changes to polish my character..

Regarding the comment above, could I get some more information on this? Whats the difference between an ALO and a FAC in the AF?

Thanks!

[60 driver]

Thanks for those who have provided kind encouragement and comments. I understand some others of you are upset and I apologize for that. Hopefully improvments in my attitude though are giving you more faith. That is why I am on here to begin with and I am not afraid to take advice and make changes to polish my character..

Regarding the comment above, could I get some more information on this? Whats the difference between an ALO and a FAC in the AF?

Thanks!

Some of the terms were somewhat interchangeable over the years, so in the past if you said "FAC" you were either talking about an airborne FAC (AFAC or FAC(A) depending on who you were talking to) or the ground FAC, or ALO. The terms are more tightly defined now - the FAC is the airborne FAC, and the ALO is the officer working directly with the Army on the ground. JTACs and ETACs are the enlisted equivalent of the ALO, and all are terminal air controllers although the E's do the bulk of the actual controlling. Occasionally you'll run into an old fart like me that says ground FAC, but it's not as common now.

[Guest w002exp]

Some of the terms were somewhat interchangeable over the years, so in the past if you said "FAC" you were either talking about an airborne FAC (AFAC or FAC(A) depending on who you were talking to) or the ground FAC, or ALO. The terms are more tightly defined now - the FAC is the airborne FAC, and the ALO is the officer working directly with the Army on the ground. JTACs and ETACs are the enlisted equivalent of the ALO, and all are terminal air controllers although the E's do the bulk of the actual controlling. Occasionally you'll run into an old fart like me that says ground FAC, but it's not as common now.

Ok, so just for clarification because the wording of the above poster was a tad confusing to me, which one are Navs used for? Or is it both? Thanks!

[60 driver]

Ok, so just for clarification because the wording of the above poster was a tad confusing to me, which one are Navs used for? Or is it both? Thanks!

I believe you guys are still eligible to be ALOs, but I am showing my age here so I should let one of the current CAS guys have the last word on that one.

[MD]

I believe you guys are still eligible to be ALOs, but I am showing my age here so I should let one of the current CAS guys have the last word on that one.

You're correct, many nav-rated guys become ALOs from any number of backgrounds (Nav, WSO, etc). The ones that are the FAC-As are only NFOs in the USMC/USN F/A-18D/F VMFA(AW)/VFA units, respectively. They used to do it in the F-14 VF units, but they're obviously all out to pasture now.

Still a GFAC to me....

[Guest 3Timer]

Hey

[Guest 3Timer]

Sorry about the last...

I am commenting on the ALO thing. I know for a fact that Nav's can be ALOs. I am sitting right next to one while I type this.(BUFF) That is one of the man reason why I am excited about going to UNT! I just made this years board! I know some(through some of the post I have read) seem discontent on where Nav/Ewo stand in the eyes of the Bigger AF, but I am telling you I don't see it that way. I am a prior enlisted JTAC, so I know abut CAS very well(I am currently Intel at an ASOC, go figure) I know that it is a team thing. I have worked with Buffs and Bone's, Strike Eagles, and yes, even Super Hornet's. I have also called in drops from numerous different '130s. When I used to debrief with the crews, it seem to me, that they were a "CREW". Not individuals. Everyone has their role. Everyone.

I have heard and read in forums that Nav/Ewos are the bastard children of the rated commmunity? I don't believe that at all. being a JTAC, well trying living with the Marines and the Army. My whole Af career, i have been station a Army installation. the only AF base I have seen is Lackland for BMT, Nellis for JFCC, Failrchild for Survival, and Eielson and Elmo when we I jumped in with the Army. I felt like a bastard then...

I am excited at the chance to beomce a CSO. I already know I have to report to Randolph in June or July this year. I am itching at the bit to understand from an air perspective. Not only about the job itself, but how it impacts the misson overall. I would love to eventually end up in a BONE, but no one on the Active Duty Board got select for JUNT. I only want teh B-1 because they are currently employed in CAs misions in OIF and OEF. Yes, I know the SE are doing it as well, but I have a fascination for the B-1. Don't ask me why, I guess because I only got to control them once. I know the Buff can do CAS, but their not being utilize right now in that mission. I hope one day I can get into that frame. I hear it is difficult to do, if you go through Randolph and get into another frame. I hope that is not the case. either way, I am going to bust tail and have fun down there. Just being in the sky is cool for me!

I hope to run into all you one days. I have alot of repsect for any of you. Really, that is not me being chessy, but being hnoest.

Can somebody tell me the current info on what you do when you first check in for trianing? I have looked at at website about etca.randolph.mil, but I think the info is out of date. Can you do IFS around the local area at the mini airports/filedss or does everyone go to CO? Any information would be nice. Flood me with information, I am ready to be drowned! Sounds kind of nasty, but you know what I mean and if you don't...Put, "So To Speak with it!"

[afthunderchief16]

Rule #1 - Only type drunk if you are experienced behind the keyboard!

As far as everything else, everyone goes to IFS now in Pueblo, they did away with local IFT last June or July for the most part. By now, they should have their separate Nav/Pilot syllabus in place at Pueblo. Also - for getting a B-1 you have to be a WSO. They aren't going to be giving them to people going to "UNT" or "CSO Training" or whatever the hell you want to call it until they consolidate everything down at P-Cola.

Let me know anything else you wanna know, they just made a bunch of changes to the current syllabus that will be in place to until the switch to P-Cola.

[Guest 3Timer]

So you show up to Randolph and then do a TDY to CO?

I know you have to be a WSO to get on the B-1 or SE..I am around those jokers all the time.! I would just like the opportunity to get on the Bone for the mission it is fulfilling currently.

Spit out as much info as you can because the websites and things I have looked up are not current...Any current info would be good...Syllabus anything, what would you advise readin up on or looking into that would help?

[Guest Monte]

So you show up to Randolph and then do a TDY to CO?

Yes

I know you have to be a WSO to get on the B-1 or SE..I am around those jokers all the time.! I would just like the opportunity to get on the Bone for the mission it is fulfilling currently.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but unless there are options to retrain I don't know about, all the roads to the bones and F-15E go through Pensacola. It sucks for the people this year who get CSO because they won't have the chance to come down here, but I think thats just the way big blue made it.

Spit out as much info as you can because the websites and things I have looked up are not current...Any current info would be good...Syllabus anything, what would you advise readin up on or looking into that would help?

Have you looked at any of the other threads about UNT? Try those first. Otherwise, there are plenty of guys here that will help you out.

[HERK_Nav]

Don't waste your free time trying to "get ahead". Enjoy the time you have before you get there and stay focused. I watched a lot of folks while I was there get wrapped up on going to Austin or the lake. Those were the folks that came in before a sim or a fight wanting to "barrow" the work of those that were working to get through the program.

The only suggestions I would have is brush up on Base 60 math. Maybe find someone with a whiz-wheel and practice. There used to be a packet floating around that one of the -130 guys but together that covered everything on using the whiz-wheel. I'll look and PM it to you if I can find it in my stuff.

[nsplayr]

Those were the folks that came in before a sim or a fight wanting to "barrow" the work of those that were working to get through the program.

Might want to brush up on proofreading as well ;) Just bustin your balls...

For the dude asking the questions, feel free to PM me with specific questions. If you want an info dump I'd say read this thread and some of the others discussing nav/CSO related topics. As the other guys said, if your orders say Randolph, you will not be flying the B-1 or F-15E, that's just how it goes. There are plenty of awesome options out of RND though, so look forward to the opportunities you're going to have.

[Guest 3Timer]

:) I will probably will PM all of you guys.

I don't want to you guys to get the wrong idea. I really don't care what frame I get. I am just excited at the opportunity to get an air perspective. I would love to be in a platform that does CAS, but I would also like to be in '130s as well. I have read many threads and I am very cuatious because it is up and down. Some things are positive and some are negative in what people say. I know everyone goes through their own personal journey in training and also throughout their careers. So i have been reading and trying to decipher which is which, if that makes sense.

Herk Nav- I always try to read up or on whatever I have to do. it has always been my nature. I always feel behind in some sense. Maybe because I am older..I don't know, but trust me, my concentration is there. I have been around to me ALOs in my career that have shown me the light. I and not saying any have been bad. Acutally they have all been great, but I just want to expand my knowledge. That is all. I was in San Angelo for Intel school and Went to school at Texas Tech. I think I am all Austin and Corpus Christi out! :) I think I will on my degree on my spare time..or Schlitterbaun or however you spell that thing...I need to go back there...maybe every weekend!

Monte- Your not raining on my parade by any means. I know what your are saying. I am just thinkging down the road...That is all. I am willing to do what the Big Blue wants me to do. Regardless the airframe.

Is IFS the same thing the pilots go through? Just asking..I see the course is 4.5 weeks...

thanks again for you responses...as I said before...i will probably be Pm all you guys at some point! :)

[drewpey]

I would love to be in a platform that does CAS, but I would also like to be in '130s as well

yeah...too bad you can't have your cake and eat it too...

that would be a pretty cool plane...let me tell you...

oh wait...

/sarcasm off

[HERK_Nav]

Might want to brush up on proofreading as well ;) Just bustin your balls...

For the dude asking the questions, feel free to PM me with specific questions. If you want an info dump I'd say read this thread and some of the others discussing nav/CSO related topics. As the other guys said, if your orders say Randolph, you will not be flying the B-1 or F-15E, that's just how it goes. There are plenty of awesome options out of RND though, so look forward to the opportunities you're going to have.

Ya...Ya... Guess I forgot my crutch...MS spell check!

[Guest rosiel]

I was just given a CSO slot (huzzah!) and now I am wondering what is next. I still have a year in ROTC so I pretty much gathered that training will be in Florida.

However, I was wondering - in the most general sense - what's next?

I am most interested in the WSO position, but the allocation process is different now apparently (a Lt I know said he was one of the last to be designated WSO straight from ROTC as the pipeline is now closed for that).

Mostly I was hoping to find out about what it is like to live in the dorms in Pensacola, things to do, training, airframe selection process, and IFS.

Thanks.

[magnetfreezer]

I was just given a CSO slot (huzzah!) and now I am wondering what is next. I still have a year in ROTC so I pretty much gathered that training will be in Florida.

However, I was wondering - in the most general sense - what's next?

I am most interested in the WSO position, but the allocation process is different now apparently (a Lt I know said he was one of the last to be designated WSO straight from ROTC as the pipeline is now closed for that).

Mostly I was hoping to find out about what it is like to live in the dorms in Pensacola, things to do, training, airframe selection process, and IFS.

Thanks.

Right now there are no WSO dorms at Pcola, pretty much everyone lives off base (although you can live in family housing or the BOQ if you want). There is plenty of drinking/beach activities to do in the off time as well as Destin/New Orleans/PCB etc on the weekends. IFS is all at Pueblo as of now. As far as the syllabus, about the only thing we know down here is that it will be T-6/T-1 (the buildings aren't even done yet). T-6s will be front/back seat depending on training phase, the rumor is the T-1s will be instructors in the right seat and students in the back instead of the current stud right/instructor jump model (the T-1s are flown by retired mil pilots as contractors so AD navs can instruct).

[Guest rosiel]

Right now there are no WSO dorms at Pcola, pretty much everyone lives off base (although you can live in family housing or the BOQ if you want). There is plenty of drinking/beach activities to do in the off time as well as Destin/New Orleans/PCB etc on the weekends. IFS is all at Pueblo as of now. As far as the syllabus, about the only thing we know down here is that it will be T-6/T-1 (the buildings aren't even done yet). T-6s will be front/back seat depending on training phase, the rumor is the T-1s will be instructors in the right seat and students in the back instead of the current stud right/instructor jump model (the T-1s are flown by retired mil pilots as contractors so AD navs can instruct).

Thanks for the insight. It really bugs me that there isn't that much info out there about CSO training.