Tac vs. Strat

[FourFans]

Here's a discussion that started at my work and I want to offer up for discussion.

My crew was broken at base X in the desert and a C-17 was parked next to us doing some lengthy stop. Curious, the loads and I went over for a look (we'd never toured Budda before). After a look around the back, I asked the loads were the pilots were and he pointed to the cockpit. I thought this rather strange seeing they were shut down.

I walked upstairs to find 3 pilots sitting with the AC blasting, just shooting the breeze. I asked them if they ever helped with the reconfigs and/or helped the loads out.

One of them told me, "That's the loads job. Our place is up here."

Now I understand one dude staying up front to moniter the APU. But the rest just chillin' and not helping the load (and he looked like he could have used it)? Maybe it's just me, but isn't that...um...wrong?

I know that there's a big difference between strat and tac airlift, but I didn't realize it was like that. I know that if we aren't needed up front, the rest of our crew is always in the back helping out the load. And after termination, we don't leave the plane for the crew bus unless everything was cleaned up and everyone is ready to go. No one kicks back until we can all kick back. The job's not done till everyone's job is done...right?

Then we can all start drinking sooner...well...not here...but you get the point.

Is this "stay in the cockpit" a mode of operation common for the strat guys? If so...WTF?

FourFans

edited for knuckle dragger spelling

[ 01. September 2006, 20:00: Message edited by: FourFans130 ]

[C17Driver]

Is this "stay in he cockpit" a mode of operation common for the strat guys? If so...WTF?

NO! Whoever the Pilot on that crew was that told you it was the loads job to take care of the stuff in the back should be taken out back and shot.

In many cases, no one is upstairs on C-17 crews when loading is taking place (if engines are shutdown of course). There are emergency APU shutdown panels in the cargo hold (no need for someone to monitor that damn thing on the flight deck). The more common reason to leave someone (just one) upstairs is to monitor radios (mostly command post) so we can hear that our mission is slipped, or cnx, or changed, or delayed...

And after termination, we don't leave the plane for the crew bus unless everything was cleaned up and everyone is ready to go. No one kicks back until we can all kick back. The job's not done till everyone's job is done...right?

Same goes for the crews that I am on.

[ 01. September 2006, 19:48: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Guest THE10MAN]

Again, Hell No.

One very important aspect of the "unoffical" AC upgrade in the -10 was to get your ass in the back and help the "Boomasters" push pallets on a few sorties, just to appreciate the ass-pain they go through if, err WHEN the ATOC FUBARs the load beyond all belief. I always asked if they wanted my help. Most of the time they respectfully handed me my Crayolas and Barney coloring back and asked me to stay out of the way. Sometimes though, they are glad for the help.

Sounds like this AC needed a swift kick in the Johnny. The loadmaster "union" has ways of dealing with his kind, rest assured.

[C17Driver]

The loadmaster "union" has ways of dealing with his kind, rest assured.

"2"

[lloyd christmas]

I have ALWAYS been able to count on the entire crew to help out on the ground. I know I am not a C-17 load, but I would suspect that no matter what the mission or aircraft the rest of the crew is always available and ready to help out. We are a CREW right?

[Mambo]

I don't mind if the pilots run off somewhere when me and the load push pallets, just as long as they bring us back something to eat!

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

10Man doth speaketh the truth. Although I've felt his landings...I don't know if I could trust him pushing pallets and making sure to put the locks up; "wrong way, skippy, we're uploading not downloading!" I keed! I keed!

The flipside is I've flown with a couple douche-nozzles in the 10 who had no problem leaving the boom (s) at the jet if we had cargo to upload or download, especially at Nellis, but even once at Hickam! We had to ride in with the crew chiefs a few hours later after they loaded 300K onto the jet. The worst part isn't that they did it. I can just do shots to catch up and it'll be less time I have to spend with A-holes like them. What I'm worried about are the young co-rockets possibly storing that little leadership lesson under the header of "what to do" vice "what never to do" when they become an AC.

[Guest THE10MAN]

Originally posted by Xtndr50boom:

10Man doth speaketh the truth. Although I've felt his landings...

Oh man, remember that night in Norfolk? Holy Crap, I thought the struts were coming through the wings. Pretty bad when you turn off the runway onto the taxiway and hear the Space-A newborn crying and the pax O2 masks are dangling.

However, we all did walk away.

[Guest ruckerstud]

So am I correct that the take home message for young cos is ask the boom/load/engineer if the need/want your help, and expect them to say no, but be ready if they say yes.

[Guest THE10MAN]

No, the take-home message for young Co's is to ask the AC what he/she wants you to do first.

The real take-home message for young AC's is to be ready to lend a hand to the E's when needed.

True, there's alot of pilot-sh!t that needs to be done on the ground, but as the top post/example illustrates, there is down time sometimes, too. Make sense?

[Guest Pan130]

Just start helping until they say get the f-ck out of the way. I usually take up to much space and screw up what they started. They can be done before I start figuring out how to undo the damn seat belts. Now at the end of the flight EVERYONE should be picking crap up to get to the bar faster....I guess that is only here in the Died. Remember...if they do give you S-it ask them how their nap was on the flight over...I guess someone has to fly the plane.

[ 02. September 2006, 11:35: Message edited by: Pan130 ]

[Guest mikedjp]

as a former C-5 load, it was very common for the pilots to head in first. most of them would wait at the hotel for us before they hit the bar at least. also a 3 hour download is not uncommon in Fred. but then again they could jusify it because the loads inflight duties on the 5 are pretty minimal. usually when we were downrange they would at least offer to help to expedite getting the hell out of there.

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Originally posted by 10MAN:

No, the take-home message for young Co's is to ask the AC what he/she wants you to do first.

You better listen to him, Flounder--He's in pre-med!

Fresh, which Norfolk trip are you talking about? I think I went there twice with you, and neither landing was pretty. Course, I can't remember anyone having a decent landing @ NGU in the 10 or 12 times I've so graced the navy with my presence. Except with the Provster

[Rocker]

For some reason I thought the C-17 was strat.

[C17Driver]

For some reason I thought the C-17 was strat.

Wikipedia says it does both (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_airlift). But it is all semantics. C-130 lovers say it doesn't do tactical, but C-17s operate in theatre and fly airdrop missions just like they do. C-5 lovers say it's not strategic because it can't haul enough.

Whatever. Who cares.

[ 03. September 2006, 19:45: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Disregard]

I've heard the C-17 classified as "Stractical"

[Chuck17]

Its not a pure version one or the other IMHO. Id say the C5 is pure strat, the 130 is pure Tac.

The C17 is what the AF does when it comes to designing an aircraft: "Oh! Lets have it do this too!"... much like what happened to the F-16 way back when (drop nukes, air to air, air to mud, etc.)

Jack of all trades, masters of none.

The 17 doesnt have the fuel economy or useful payload to be the best Strat platform out there. But it does well.

The 17 cant haul as many paratroopers as the 141(we can only haul 102), or land in a field as short as the 130(we need 3500'x90' by regs). The 17 has a HUGE footprint in theatre, a substantial MX requirement and it just cant land in the dirt or on unprep'd surfaces as well as the Herk, like a tac-airlifter should be able to.

Those are just some of the things I can think of that hurt the case for tac v strat name arguement.

Regardless, I love this airplane and I love my job.

Chuck

[ 04. September 2006, 10:14: Message edited by: Chuck17 ]

[Rocker]

Originally posted by Chuck17:

Regardless, I love this airplane and I love my job.

"...and that's THE BOTTOM LINE!!!"

[zrooster99]

And after termination, we don't leave the plane for the crew bus unless everything was cleaned up and everyone is ready to go.

Just so you know when I worked maintenance on Hercs, I saw the attitude you described from some of those crews too. It's not exclusive to one community...everybody has their share of a$$holes.

[ 04. September 2006, 20:30: Message edited by: zrooster99 ]

[Clayton Bigsby]

I've seen it happen. It sucks, 'cuz I gotta deal with it. Not much I can do though.

[Guest Slilock]

Originally posted by Chuck17:

or land in a field as short as the 130(we need 3500'x90' by regs).

And a clearly marked centerline....

[Chuck17]

That kind of response is how a thread gets derailed and locked.

Move on.

Chuck

[ 05. September 2006, 20:42: Message edited by: Chuck17 ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Chuck17:

Strat and Tac: they do exist, but the C-17 isnt one or the other.

There's a difference between a tac-capable aircraft and a tac airlifter. You may have the ability, but your community is ruled by the strat mind-set. Which is fine with me. If you can carry 16 pallets across the world, you need to be doing strat, period.

Comparing a Budda to a Herk in tac is like comparing a Buff to a Hog in CAS.

HD

[ 06. September 2006, 20:29: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[HerkDerka]

Basically I was agreeing with your jack of all trades, master of none statement. But I think the tac abilities of the Barney could be better exploited with a mind-set shift in the community.

HD

[ 07. September 2006, 05:03: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]