USMC/Marine Aviation

[Gravedigger]

Hey, I was approached by a Marine recruiter about their guaranteed aviaiton program and it sounds like a sweet deal. Anyone have stories or advice about how the Marines do things; flying in particular. I know they train with the Navy guys, but what kind of crap do they do after that? Any comments good or bad are aprreciated.

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

I have also heard this and I am definatly interested in Marine Aviation. I beleive that the Marines are hard up for jet pilots. It seems that most Marine aviators want to go helos, and Marines are actually trying to get some Navy jet pilots to switch services. All of the above I have only heard second hand.

One thing that I find appealing about the Marines is that if you do well enough to track jets, you will either be flying F-18s or Harriers.

Here is a site with some good Marine info:

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/

[Hacker]

Beware of what you sign up for with the USMC. A friend of mine in college signed one of these "guaranteed pilot" contracts with the Marines.

While he was off at a summer program called "Bulldog" (which I assume is a field training type of thing) he broke his ankle...and as a result lost his pilot slot. Apparently in the fine print of the contract there was something saying that if you are injured they don't have to make you a pilot. So...he was headed to be a rifleman instead of a jet jock!

[Guest goirishgo]

i heard that your fate is in the hands of the needs of the USMC. in other words your class might ALL get helos if that's what they're looking for at that point in time.

if it sounds too good to be true, usually it is.

[Guest HueyPilot]

I flew with a guy in the ARNG who had a son in the program. I guess his son actually made it to pilot training, but he said some of them got carted off to infantry. There IS a fine print clause, and I'd be very well-read on that before I signed anything.

As for the USMC being "hard up" for jet pilots and most wanting helos...I don't know if that's entirely true. Sure, you'll probably find plenty that have accepted the fact that most USMC pilots will fly helos, but you will likely always find a bunch who want to fly fixed-wing.

There were a couple Marines in my C-130 initial qual course, and both of them said it was tough competition to get ANY fixed-wing slots, much less jets.

FA-18s, EA-6Bs, AV-8Bs and KC-130s are about the only fixed-wing options in the USMC. Everything else is helo (or soon to be tilt-rotor). However, if you get helos, all is not lost.

It's quite common for Marine and Navy helo pilots to get the "cushy" fixed-wing jobs after a few tours in operational helo assignments. C-12s, UC-35s, C-9s, C-20s, and now the C-40 are all available to helo pilots. In fact, most of the pilots in those airframes came from helos because the combat FW airframes (F-18/EA-6/AV-8/KC-130) don't like to give up the few bodies they have. And you can always go to Training Command and fly T-34/T-6s as well. But realize if you put in for training assignments you could just as easily get a TH-57.

Anyways, whether you go jets or not, you've got a decent chance of getting FW experience before you get out in the Marine Corps. If you're hung up on flying fighters, though, I'd go USAF/ANG/AFRES. In fact, if you're hung up on airplanes period, I'd go USAF. Here's a rough guestimate of your chances...remember, they are my educated guestimates:

USAF:

Fighters- 30%

Airplanes- 95%

USN:

Fighters- 20%

Airplanes- 50%

USMC:

Fighters- 10%

Airplanes- 30%

USA:

Fighters- 0%

Airplanes- 5%

USCG:

Airplanes- 10%

That's a pretty close guestimate. Anyone else add to that?

[PapaJu]

I've also read that the USMC is in need of jets. And in the USMC, you're trained as an infantryman, so if you're needed, you will become one.

[M2]

Wanna is correct, every Marine is a rifleman first and foremost, so you will be trained as a rifleman before being trained as a pilot. And if you don't make it through pilot training, guess what you'll be...

There are loads of Marines where I work. Matter of fact, I have heard there hasn't been this many Marines in Europe since the end of the first World War! That's what happens when you hire the Commandant of the Marine Corps to be the SACEUR! Anyhow, they are a great, dedicated bunch and true professionals, but you had better be ready for the full and complete Marine lifestyle if you join. There ain't no halfassing in the Marines, it is full on all the time.

Cheers! M2

[Guest phrogpilot]

As a graduate of Marine Aviation I would say go for it. The Marine Corps in general does not have time to play games. So, if you get a gauranteed Air Contract you will have an opportunity to go to Flight School. As for the percentage of getting a jet slot (I am not sure why you would want one) it is about 30% to 35%. KC-130 are about 5% and getting Helos is 65%. If you think about it, the Marine Corps aviation is about 50/50 Helos to Fixed Wing (data was from Air War Power Journal in the Mid 90s when I was going through Flight School) but Helos are dual piloted and Jets are Single pilot. As far as going through Bulldog, it sounds like he was an ROTC student who did not receive a garuanteed Air Contract slot. Only OCS(PLC in Marine Jargon) candidates receive the garuanteed slot. All is not over if you select helos, I have at least 3 friends who converted from Helos to F/A-18s in the Marine Corps. Also, Helos is where the action is - for the Marine Corps (Marine Exped. Units). In my case, I got picked for AFRes C-130s after the Marines. It was the best deal (PLC Air Garuantee) at the time I was applying for a commissioning program, the Air Force told me to pound sand, the Navy wanted a higher GPA and well the Army had no fixed wing slots. Also consider that as a Marine Helo Bubba you will go through the same training as an Air Force Helo bubba (T-6/T-34/T-37 and then to H-57/58). I do not regret my time in the Marine Corps. Also if you wash out of flight school for whatever reason you will not get infantry. The infantry MOS is the most prized MOS for the Marine Corps and can be (if not) very difficult to get. One other note, it takes a different kind of person to be a Marine. In the Marine Corps you are an Officer of Marines and then a pilot. So yes, you may get the Forward Air Controller slot, but leadership on the Ground is just as valuable as leadership in the Air. And leadership is what seperates Military Aviation from Civilian Aviation (anybody can fly a plane).

[Guest pinko]

Originally posted by PalmettoGuy:

I have also heard this and I am definatly interested in Marine Aviation. I beleive that the Marines are hard up for jet pilots. It seems that most Marine aviators want to go helos, and Marines are actually trying to get some Navy jet pilots to switch services. All of the above I have only heard second hand.

I've heard the same here around pensacola. The navy's trying to persuade some of their own to cross over into the green side of things... theres a catch though- called TBS- but other than that it sounds like a good deal if you don't want to fly things with lots of bearings and spinning parts. (no offense to you rotor-types).

From what i hear, its pretty hard to get jets with the navy right now unless youve got a kick-a$$ NSS score.

[pcola]

The deal right now with Marines and jets is that if you have a high enough NSS score, you will go jets, regardless of what you want. I know of more than a few Marines that wanted helo's but are going to jets because their NSS was too high. So, basically, there is a jet draft for the Marine aviators that have shown the potential to be able to learn to fly one. If you're Navy and you want jets, you better have an NSS of 65 or above, Marines that get over 50-55 are forced to go jets, and AF with over 55 get whatever they want, including T-38. BTW, the NSS scale is 80 is perfect, and 35ish is about the minimum "passing" score. You have to be pretty good to get the 55 mark, so it's not like any Marine that wants jets will get it, it just sucks for those that want helo's but have high scores. Another thing to remember is that this is the current trend. Things change from month to month around here.

Oh yeah, yes, there always Marines that want jets, and not all of them get a high enough score, but those that do are in luck right now. If any of you wonder why so many Marines want helo's, just look at what they get to fly. Almost all of them shoot something, and look at the Cobra. That thing can bring the pain.

[Guest airwinger]

I concur with Phrogpilot's post. The chances of you getting forced to go infantry are just about laughable.

To show you how tough it is to get to be an infantry platoon commander, there are officers who sign on with a guaranteed pilot slot, go through PLC/OCC then drop the slot at TBS in the hopes of getting an infantry slot. Four people in my TBS class did that. The reverse(i.e being forced to go infantry) is something I've never even heard of!!

Of course as with any service, if you medically disqualify, DOR, or just attrite, you will get to apply for some other field. Most guys wind up as intel or maintenance, with a couple of NFO's. Post TBS(in API or primary), my class lost about 7 guys all of them DOR's with airsickness or a desire to lead Marines being the most often cited reasons.

I would hazard that well over 70% of the guys who wanted jets at the END of primary(ie after they've pulled a couple of g's, flown some formation) got them. As was pointed out there is a pretty strong jet draft right now, and if you're better than average you WILL get jets(i.e 50+NSS)

If you get that pilot slot, you could have a gurantee as your freshman year in college(for PLC air) I doubt any other service offers the same kind of option.

It's not easy. To be a Marine Corps fighter pilot, you'll do most of the fighter pilot training the USAF does, land on the boat with the Navy, but also have the joys of TBS and OCS. It's a long tough journey. Heck I've been in flight school 2 years now and still no wings:)

[ 31. October 2004, 14:51: Message edited by: airwinger ]

[Riddller]

Yeah, that time in the pipeline thing was one of the major reasons I chose the AF over the Marine Corps. Don't get me wrong, after 7.5 years as a Marine KC-130 Nav, there is NOTHING in this world I would rather do than be a Marine KC-130 Pilot, but #1: It was MUCH harder to get a Marine enlisted commissioning program than AF, #2: Even if I was the top grad out of flight training, w/ only 5% of Marine Pilots getting Hercs, I had a VERY small chance of getting them (meaning I'd be stuck in fighters or helo's, no offense, just not my bag baby!) and #3: I had student pilot friends of mine in the 130 training squadron that had been in 4-5 years and were barely copilots!! They all said they knew AF guys they were in Primary with that were already Aircraft Commanders!! Not to mention the 6 months at TBS after you commission BEFORE you get stuck on 6-12 months of the Marine version of casual status before your training start date rolls around. I want transport, and the AF was the easiest, fastest, and most reliable way of getting it. Good luck!!

[Guest Bushmaster]

I am asking this question for a friend of mine folks...

If you go Marines fighter track, what airframes do you train with... The guy tells me it is T-34 and then T-38... Is that correct?

Thanks...

[Guest lovelacm]

Close.. T-34 for Primary at P-Cola or Corpus.

If you draw Jets I believe you're off to NAS Kingsville (right down the road from Corpus) to fly the T-45 (?) Goshawk? That right? I remember those guys coming over to fly approaches and stuff, and rolling over to Kingsville for work, too..

If you head out to the fleet to get carrier qual'd, I think you head up to Meridian before you go to the replacement squadron to train in your eventual airframe.

Someone please smack me around and fill in the grey areas if I'm wrong.

Cheers!

Linda

[Guest airwinger]

Close Capt Lovelace:) I'm a marine stud still in flight school(2 years and no wings yet!!)

T-34Cs in whiting/Corpus then T-45A's in Kingsville which have old steam gauges or T-45C's in Meridian which have two MFD's and a pretty sweet HUD.

I'm one of the last of the old syllabus and we did the T-2C buckeye, probably the last jet students to really spin a jet. Nothing like pulling straight up, going idle then using half left rudder, full right, then full left rudder and full aft right stick. The jet tumbles like a top backend over front end:)

The syllabus is equivalent to the T-38+IFF since we not only do the basics of form/tac form, but also 13 ACM rides and 13 weps(dropping blue death).

You do CQ's(carrier quals or das boot in the T-45 either at Meridian or kingsville) I get to hit the JFK 6th March.

[ 18. February 2005, 19:34: Message edited by: airwinger ]

[Baseops.Net]

These apply to USN and USMC student pilots

Navy Primary Bases (T-34C)

NAS Whiting

NAS Corpus

Joint Primary (T-37/T-6)

Vance AFB

Moody AFB

Navy Advanced Helo

NAS Whiting

Navy Advanced Maritime Turboprops (T-44/C-12)

NAS Corpus

Navy Advanced Strike (T-45)

NAS Meridian

NAS Kingsville

Joint E-6 (T-1)

Vance AFB

Navy E-2/C-2 (T-44)

NAS Corpus followed by T-45 training

edit: sorry, forgot to mention the follow on jet training for the E2/C2 guys!

[ 21. February 2005, 12:42: Message edited by: Baseops.Net ]

[Scooter14]

Do E-2/C-2 guys have to carrier qual in the T-45?

[ASUPilot]

Yes!

[Guest Dr.Pepper]

How many jarhead pilots are there on this forum? Any?

I'm really interested to learn about the difference between an airforce aviator and a marine aviator...if any.

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Absolutely no difference between the two. I mean, one's a Marine aviator and the other is an AF aviator. Apart from different uniforms it's all the same. As long as you don't listen to anyone who says differently you'll do just fine

[LockheedFix]

Originally posted by Xtndr50boom:

Absolutely no difference between the two. I mean, one's a Marine aviator and the other is an AF aviator. Apart from different uniforms it's all the same. As long as you don't listen to anyone who says differently you'll do just fine

Unless you consider having to be an infantry officer for 6 months before you ever have anything to do with flying "absolutely no difference". And it depends on what you're flying. If you fly choppers, you'll do the whole Navy thing of living on a boat for 6 months at a time. That's kind of a difference. Plus you do all your flight training with the Navy, which is WAY different.

Also, in the Corps, aviation is not the priority, so all the money goes to the ground pounders. This means absolutely NO 60" plasma screen TVs in the squadron, which to me is a deal breaker.

[ 25. October 2005, 15:49: Message edited by: herk28 ]

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Not just helos deploy on ship. Harriers and Hornets do as well. Prowlers may occasionally do it if needed. All aircraft except the Herk are technically game for ship time. Some do it more than others.

Training may be different with regards to UPT, but the same high quality professional aviator is usually the endstate regardless of service. Any deviations to that are normally a result of individual personality.

When it comes to 60" plasma TVs, the ground guys' budget and our budget are completely different animals. I am also sorry to see that a TV is your priority. I guess I am just used to lack of pork spending in the Corps. We make the most out of every dime we get and really wouldn't have the time to sit around and watch the plasma TV anyway. The Aviation budget is mostly "blue dollar", or Navy money as it is and much larger because our toys cost more to buy, operate, and maintain. There is no priority, just a matter of who supports who. Marine Aviation exists to support the infantryman on the ground.

[Guest Jester]

Dr.Pepper, I'm not a military aviator(yet). But I am currently waiting for the next OCC board for a Marine air contract. I recommend you talk to the AF recruiter about it and give your nearest Marine OSO a call and talk to him. It is true what these guys are saying, you are an Officer or Marines first, pilot second. I would say the major difference is the lifestyle. I grew up in an AF household, and I can tell you that from what I have seen so far the lifestyles are very different. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[Guest roy moore]

There are differences, but most are not found in the operation of aircraft. Mostly, lifestyle and deployment differences. It will also depend on what aircraft you fly. For example, a Marine F-18 boat pilot (ie Marine carrier based pilot) has a lot in common with Navy Carrier pilots (he essentially functions as one). A Marine Herk Pilot, which is a very small slice of Marine aviators, has in many respects more in common with Air Force pilots than he does with other Marine pilots. Aircraft requirements and support require this. The Air Force is the world's largest operator of the platform.

The Marine ethos dictates that airplanes support ground ops. This means for the most part the platforms are tactical-enemy in your face types. My Marine helo brethren on this website will attest. If you make a connection, it would be between the Air Force specops platforms and the Marines. That flying for the majority of it is very similar--right down to helo AR. A-10's, F-16's, and Strike Eagles fly similar tactics to Marine F-18 and Harriers as well.

Marines do drool over Air Force money, but you would be surprised about our budget in Marine Herks. We fly the newest Herks in the US fleet. At least a month ago, we did. New airplanes mean new upgrades for hangars and support. In my slice of Marine aviation, there are no 60 inch tubes, but there is alot of Q of L pleaseantries. Again, that is not the norm for the rest of the service's aviation.

[BFM this]

Saw a Marine Herk on approach here at DM last weekend. Slick outside of 1 and 4, I thought: must be a new J out on a weekend trainer.

I didn't see it by base ops. Then, taxiing back on Monday I saw it was not a J and it was parked at the boneyard hangar.

...