FY 14 Force Management Program (RIF, VSP, TERA)

[Tnkr]

She's a political appointee from a military-gutting liberal, I don't expect her to be able to vis recce every plane in the fleet, but she should at least know how to quickly dispose of 25k people

I detected your sarcasm so I thought I'd pile on.

Hueys have been around for a year or two. Maybe she's heard of a little operation commonly referred to as 'Nam. They played a small part in that one.

Seriously, I knew what a Huey was before I could tell a 15 from a 4. Or an eagle from a phantom.

Ba-dum cha!

[chim richalds]

yes tnkr, I guess sarcasm can be tough to judge on the internet based on the number of "down votes" I get every time I post on here. This is a good place to vent, and a valuable resource to share rumors/lessons learned/and "heres what my vMPF says today." Thanks CHS17 for your funny memes, they make me laugh before I make the long walk to my GCS every night. Those of you who have been able to stay in a cockpit, I salute you. Please keep those of us who went through UPT only to be banished to a life of watching video feeds in your prayers.

[tunes]

So I logged onto VMPF to see about changing my application. It was denied on 2/19 for UPT ADSC. I only have the option to 'view my previous applications' or 'apply for voluntary separation'...so I don't see the option anywhere to re-submit with the same control number.

[Fozzy Bear]

I am rechecking my status tomorrow. I have a feeling I was denied for ADSC. IF it was for a PCS I never wanted and was non-vol'd, I want to talk to base legal to double check that, since AFPC auto-checks the voluntary box for you.

If i am denied for ADSC due to UPT, I will appeal to the IG, though less sure about that process. My CC was in my office today and neither of us know where the argument stands. Is the UPT question resolved? Are all pilots ineligible for VSP if you have and UPT commitment left?

[chizz]

If i am denied for ADSC due to UPT, I will appeal to the IG, though less sure about that process. My CC was in my office today and neither of us know where the argument stands. Is the UPT question resolved? Are all pilots ineligible for VSP if you have and UPT commitment left?

just curious why you think this will do anything and what exactly the complaint is?

[Altus Barbarosa]

UPT is not listed as a waiverable ADSC in the PSDMS. Why are people still getting wrapped around that axle? I can't understand the straw grasping at this unambiguous fact. If/when they make it waiverable it's not going to be a secret and won't require any sleuthing to figure out.

Frankly all the folks who fired off applications for VSP who were clearly not eligible are just slowing down the process for those that are.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Altus Barbarosa

[spaw2001]

Our base received an official email from Afpc with questions and answers yesterday.

-Afpc is still waiting on a memo from haf expanding adsc waivers for health professionals and rated personnel.

- A new eligibility matrix will be posted removing around 500 Airmen from eligibility (does not specify officer/enlisted).

- People with extended afscs will have a separate application window to alleviate the initial denials

Timing on all this is still tbd

[Fozzy Bear]

My case would be two fold on ADSC; that AFPC has said they are still deciding, but also that how I read the PSDMs was that they listed INeligibility criteria. I don't UPT was listed the last time I read it, making it a viable and eligible ADSC eligible issue. I'll reread.

[nsplayr]

UPT is not listed as a waiverable ADSC in the PSDMS. Why are people still getting wrapped around that axle? I can't understand the straw grasping at this unambiguous fact. If/when they make it waiverable it's not going to be a secret and won't require any sleuthing to figure out.

Frankly all the folks who fired off applications for VSP who were clearly not eligible are just slowing down the process for those that are.

The rub is that if A) all RIF-eligible airmen will be eligible for voluntary programs and B) pilots in the 2005-2008 timeframe are RIF-eligible, then what voluntary programs exactly are they eligible for?

Obviously not TERA, Palace Chase has always been open...so VSP? Unclear the way I read everything. If pilots were, are and always have been ineligible for VSP specifically because of waiver authority issues in their known UPT ADSCs, why not spell that out clearly in a simple sentence instead of the fucking maze of cross-referenced, always-changing PSDMs?

Edited March 19, 2014 by nsplayr

[LettersVSandP]

UPT is not listed as a waiverable ADSC in the PSDMS. Why are people still getting wrapped around that axle? I can't understand the straw grasping at this unambiguous fact. If/when they make it waiverable it's not going to be a secret and won't require any sleuthing to figure out.

Frankly all the folks who fired off applications for VSP who were clearly not eligible are just slowing down the process for those that are.

They changed the PSDMs two days before the window opened adding that little reference to 13-65. That reference was only in the VSP PSDM and not in the RIF PSDM, 13-130. Why would we think 13-130 applied to those of us eligible for the RIF? Because AFPC said that was what RIF eligible individuals should go by. Moreover, 13-130 described eligibility and procedures for applying for the VSP and it said explicitly the same as the SECAF and CSAF have been saying: if you're RIF eligible, you're eligible for the VSP. Additionally, the VSP eligibility matrix lists us as eligible while everyone in our year group has an ADSC.

So, on the one side we had one statement in a PSDM that AFPC was saying didn't apply and on the other side we had all manner of evidence and reason. As for consequences, we'd already told our bosses we wanted out. There was no downside difference and a huge upside difference between applying and not applying. Only a complete idiot would've not applied at that point.

Lawyered

Our base received an official email from Afpc with questions and answers yesterday.

-Afpc is still waiting on a memo from haf expanding adsc waivers for health professionals and rated personnel.

- A new eligibility matrix will be posted removing around 500 Airmen from eligibility (does not specify officer/enlisted).

- People with extended afscs will have a separate application window to alleviate the initial denials

Timing on all this is still tbd

Thanks for posting. Somebody has to make up for the inadequacy of AFPCs communication. If only they had a website or something...

[Altus Barbarosa]

New FAQ came out last night. It's FOUO so can't post it. It does say that VSP and TERA applicants will be notified nlt 2 wks after the app window closes. What happened to NLT 1 Apr? It's loaded with date TBD all over the place too.

What a ing joke.

[spaw2001]

No problem. I have had the fortune/misfortune of sitting on the wing perch watching all the info funnel down. I will say this latest email seems to give the most hope to adscs being waived to some degree. Furthermore, why would afpc create a separate application window for people impacted if they will then turn around and deny everyone with adscs again?

With regards to the psdms still referencing rated afscs not being waived, the email alludes to the fact that this is because they have yet to receive the waiver authority from haf.

[ready2go]

New FAQ came out last night. It's FOUO so can't post it. It does say that VSP and TERA applicants will be notified nlt 2 wks after the app window closes. What happened to NLT 1 Apr? It's loaded with date TBD all over the place too.

What a ######ing joke.

Does anyone have a link to this FAQ on mypers? I am outside the normal AF structure, and my agency is as much in the dark as we all are.

[Charlie17Chick]

I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted.

I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech.

Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time.

They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would.

So I've gotta give credit to FLY6584 for giving me the idea, and I can completely understand how he wasn't able to read his question during the SECAF visit…they only had 5 during ours. I was tired of bitching about the VSP eligibility and decided to ask the SECAF myself while she came to visit our deployed location. Here was my question:

"Madam Secretary, thank you for taking my question regarding the FY14 Force Management Programs. On behalf of the 2,500 pilots in the 2005-2008 year groups who were identified for the RIF and voluntary programs, my question is on our VSP eligiblity. There are 415, or 16%, currently identified as a coverage in the Air Force, and many have sought to exhaust "voluntary" measures available, vice waiting for the "involuntary" boards. Many pilots have already been denied for VSP due to their Pilot Training service commitments, while others have been processing at AFPC since last month. It has been expressed that the waiver authority for our Pilot Training commitment resides with you, Madam Secretary, so we would like to know if you are expecting to waive these commitments for eligible volunteers? And, if we won't be waived, will this group still be expected to meet involuntary boards without being afforded the option of voluntary measures?"

Her answer: "I assume you are referencing the overages for the mobility pilots, because fighter pilots are currently undermanned. We just took a pause to relook at these programs, and you should be seeing some movement on the applications for those in overages soon"……..so, she didn't really answer the question specifically.

Final question: "To reference the first question, if someone is denied a voluntary program, are they expected to meet an involuntary board?"

Her response: "I would assume not. If they are eligible to volunteer, I don't know why we wouldn't let them and then send them to the boards. Am I correct? Let me ask my leaders (looks at the Generals in the front row). We'll have to confer with the personnel center and get back to you."

I'm not sure what answer I was expecting to hear, but I definitely got the 'Politician Special', vague and brief. I'm one of the lucky ones that still has my VSP application in the system (submitted at 0050CST), so I'm hanging on to hope. From the feel of the forum, I would definitely reapply if you have already been denied. If you want out that bad, what do you have to lose?

Other info of note:

• Use voluntary measures prior to involuntary boards
• Only 11,000-12,000 voluntary apps submitted (my guess is mostly pilots)
• Looking to cut 16,700 from AD in FY15
• 2x Involuntary boards, 13-15 months apart.
• If you meet the 1st board, you won't meet the 2nd unless from disciplinary actions

Specifics:

11M, 2005, ADSC through June 2017

Edited April 16, 2014 by Charlie17Chick

[Jughead]

IF it was for a PCS I never wanted and was non-vol'd, I want to talk to base legal to double check that, since AFPC auto-checks the voluntary box for you.

I only got one assignment over a 21+ year career that I didn't want. I never signed for the ADSC (which was largely irrelevant, since my bonus ADSC was longer) and forced them to change my "voluntary" status (also irrelevant, in the sense that off I went on the PCS). Beyond making me feel better about not "accepting" anything, my reasoning was that if I suddenly found myself over the next two years in a position of wanting/needing to shed ADSCs, I'd have one fewer to fight. All about nothing, as it turns out in my case--but sounds like you're in a different position & actively trying to get out from under ADSC(s).... Make sure you know exactly what you did (and didn't) sign; if push comes to shove, make them show it to you (via the ADC). Good luck.

[Mish_Hacker]

Her answer: "I assume you are referencing the overages for the mobility pilots, because fighter pilots are currently undermanned. We just took a pause to relook at these programs, and you should be seeing some movement on the applications for those in overages soon"……..so, she didn't really answer the question specifically.

Final question: "To reference the first question, if someone is denied a voluntary program, are they expected to meet an involuntary board?"

Her response: "I would assume not. If they are eligible to volunteer, I don't know why we wouldn't let them and then send them to the boards. Am I correct? Let me ask my leaders (looks at the Generals in the front row). We'll have to confer with the personnel center and get back to you."

First off, thank you for asking the question. Senior Leaders always want questions, especially the "tough" ones that come from the people whose voices and concerns normally get watered down through the layers of bureaucracy as they pass through the official channels. Unfortunately, as other have previously mentioned, the tendency is for Senior Leaders to deflect and not actually answer the specific question. No, Madam Secretary, there are 415 pilots listed as an overage (not just mobility) of about 2500 (which does not include any fighter pilots) -- we are ONLY talking about the overage and eligible numbers produced by AFPC. I would like to infer from her answer that we can expect those ADSCs to be waived, but we also inferred from Gen Welsh and 13-130 that those eligible for RIF were eligible for VSP (reality -- still unknown). One thing I take from this is that the primary concern of 2500ish pilots is not getting the direct attention of the SECAF.

There are two parts to the question that she didn't answer:

1) Is the 415 number an accurate overage? Will a new matrix be released with new numbers? If so, when will that happen? Will these new numbers be significantly different than the ones released in January? If so, what caused the change in numbers? I don't expect her to know this exactly, but someone in the front row should get her that info ASAP. When AFPC release numbers and then pull them back, people question the validity of anything they produce or say, thus they move up the chain for answers. Your question mentioned nothing about fighter pilots, who are not listed as eligible on the Voluntary or Involuntary Matrices -- you know what you're talking about, while she does not have the same info. If only you could have had the RIF matrix projected onto the screen for her to see...

2) Will the SECAF authorize ADSC waivers for those who apply for VSP and are listed as an overage? Is that what she means by "processed?" Many of us were under the impression that part of the holdup on our applications involved "statutory limits" and "waiver authority," per the AFPC memos a couple weeks back. If you are the waiver authority do you intend to approve these waivers or to delegate the authority? Have the statutory hurdles been cleared? We can all understand, grudgingly, that a pause to help AFPC get their stuff together may be a necessary delay. What we do want to know is what happens next. This is a question that she should be able to answer, as it requires her signature. If the waiver authority request hasn't gotten to her yet, then why not?

I do appreciate her last response as to the logic of allowing people to voluntarily separate before meeting an involuntary board. That's what we've been talking about this whole time. The question is, can we expect a response soon? If she is able to ask this of the personnel folks using that logic, she should then be able to answer question 2) and maybe question 1).

Edited March 19, 2014 by Mish_Hacker

[chim richalds]

Final question: "To reference the first question, if someone is denied a voluntary program, are they expected to meet an involuntary board?"

Her response: "I would assume not. If they are eligible to volunteer, I don't know why we wouldn't let them and then send them to the boards. Am I correct? Let me ask my leaders (looks at the Generals in the front row). We'll have to confer with the personnel center and get back to you."

good job. This has been one of the most common complaints in this process. The fact that probably the highest person in your chain you will ever speak to doesn't know if this got resolved is telling.

Edited March 19, 2014 by chim richalds

[chim richalds]

SA LOW light is flickering.

Now you know why i "fly" uavs.

[albertschu]

A guy I know at the medical group says your records are lost.

See? I also can post random, uninformed rumor based on a general distrust of an organization.

Oh yeah, well I know a guy at Finance that said the f'd up your pay.

Just because it's a rumor doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Fiver]

Our base received an official email from Afpc with questions and answers yesterday.

-Afpc is still waiting on a memo from haf expanding adsc waivers for health professionals and rated personnel.

- A new eligibility matrix will be posted removing around 500 Airmen from eligibility (does not specify officer/enlisted).

- People with extended afscs will have a separate application window to alleviate the initial denials

Timing on all this is still tbd

"Transparency" new 13-65 and matrix must be coming out "soon" since they updated 14-08 and not 13-65, but they have stated they are waiting on Rated and Health Professional clearance before starting application processing AND they are allowing people to resubmit if they have disapproved. Remember, Cox said they have now gathered the data and know how they can maximize their voluntary programs (so wrong to do it that way). Therefore, they know how many pilots submitted and they know how many years of UPT they have to waive to reach their 415 number by platform.

My guess is they have to waive part of UPT ADSC, maybe 2-6 years if they are going to VSP any pilots. They are obviously considering letting docs get out, which is shocking. I don't think they are going to come anywhere near their target and are going to hit the involuntary option pretty hard in FY15 if they are letting their most expensive personnel bounce. I don't foresee a lot of pilots eligible for involuntary. I bet they reach their target with voluntary since they already know what they have to do to achieve their objective.

Opinion: don't break my balls. It's bar talk.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Fiver

[MooseAg03]

Just because it's a rumor doesn't mean it isn't true.

I'm sure whoever you know at AFPC is probably not involved with discussions at the CSAF and SECAF level.

Why would we be hearing about plans for a separate application window for those with ADSCs if they had no plans to waive them? Maybe they won't let any of us go under current guidance, but I can't see how they would plan to reduce overages they have already identified without letting some of us out of our UPT commitment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shweaty]

Talking to afpc today, they said they are filtering through apps and kicking back disapproved VSP apps while waiting on air staff to give the green light on adsc waivers. Do any of you ever call Mypers, or is it just about bitching on this forum and not taking any action?

Yes VSP is on hold but it's on hold for the medical and adsc waivers. Maybe they will or maybe they won't approve them. Reapply if you haven't already and make sure the verbiage is correct "FY14 Voluntary Separation Pay (VSP) program".

I have called Mypers at least 10 times to see where my app is since I have not been denied yet and my original app has been at afpc since the beginning of Feb. They will tell you if it's in the batch box which is the "waiting area" for the program that they will run when they get the go ahead from HAF. It will pull all your data from MILPDS to see if you qualify, and that's about it.

Sooooo long story short, reapply if you were originally denied.

Edited March 20, 2014 by C17Jockey

[GMaster13]

Even the Air Force Times is seeing the disconnect between Big Blue's words and actions.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140320/CAREERS/303200051/Confusion-continues-over-TERA-VSP-application-approvals

[LettersVSandP]

Talking to afpc today, they said they are filtering through apps and kicking back disapproved VSP apps while waiting on air staff to give the green light on adsc waivers. Do any of you ever call Mypers, or is it just about bitching on this forum and not taking any action?

Yes VSP is on hold but it's on hold for the medical and adsc waivers. Maybe they will or maybe they won't approve them. Reapply if you haven't already and make sure the verbiage is correct "FY14 Voluntary Separation Pay (VSP) program".

I have called Mypers at least 10 times to see where my app is since I have not been denied yet and my original app has been at afpc since the beginning of Feb. They will tell you if it's in the batch box which is the "waiting area" for the program that they will run when they get the go ahead from HAF. It will pull all your data from MILPDS to see if you qualify, and that's about it.

Sooooo long story short, reapply if you were originally denied.

I called AFPC today and heard a completely different story, but you make a compelling argument, so I resubmitted my application.

[Mish_Hacker]

Even the Air Force Times is seeing the disconnect between Big Blue's words and actions.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140320/CAREERS/303200051/Confusion-continues-over-TERA-VSP-application-approvals

It is sadly unsurprising that the official responses continue to avoid answering the relevant questions. The questions among officers primarily deals with those who were listed as overages on the January RIF matrix. Since AFPC has pulled that matrix, rather than updating it, it leaves many of us puzzled: Am I in an overage AFSC/yeargroup? I was in January, but now I'm unsure. When will this information be released? If 50% of applicants are ineligible, then what's the holdup on the other 5,000 applications? The January 23 voluntary matrix is still posted on the MyPers website. Were the "ineligible" applicants in blue rectangles or red ones?

AFPC could save itself a lot of wasted effort by producing clear and timely guidance and by updating, rather than subversively removing, the previously released guidance. With all the flail around these programs, you would expect some changes to the Voluntary Matrix and the RIF matrix. It's been two months....