Fixed Wing Qualification for Army Pilots to become USAF pilots?

[Guest flintstone1]

I heard they cancelled the AF FWQ for ANG? Is it still open for AF RES?

[LoadClear]

When do you think they canceled this? I graduated AMS (ANG) with a guy under this in May of this year.

[Guest flintstone1]

As of April of this year. I hope your friend ended up in regular UPT. Now prior Army Aviators must go through the full UPT syllabus by 32. Check APTAP.org. As far as I know, ANG has been affected. Looking for inquiries about AFRES and if they still use FWQ.

[Guest]

FWQ has been cnx due to budget cuts.

[Guest flintstone1]

Is that for ANG? or across the board for the USAF?

[Guest]

The latter.

[Guest flintstone1]

Thanks. I wish you were telling me a bad joke.

[Termy]

Here is the bulk of the email that came from a two star:

SUBJECT: Fixed-Wing Qualification (FWQ)

1. As of 31 October 2011, Air Staff terminated funding for the

Fixed-Wing

Qualification course. This leaves two courses of action for rotary-wing

pilots wanting to transition to fixed-wing. First, any individuals who

completed fixed-wing primary training (T-34, T-37, T-6) will go directly

to

the Flying Training Unit (FTU). Second, IAW AFI 36-2205, any

individuals

that did not complete fixed-wing primary training and Army pilots will

be

required to compete and be selected to attend Undergraduate Pilot

Training.

The age 30 limitation will apply for admission to UFT.

2. Commanders need to consider these changes when hiring helicopter or

Army

pilots into your flying units. AFRC POC for this subject is...

[Royal]

Interesting. I have a good friend who was a CW3 and just finished FWQ about 3 weeks ago. I wonder how it's a budgetary issue, considering the FWQ dudes get less flights. Seems to me like it would be worth leaving the program open at one of the UPT bases, from a financial standpoint.

Rainman, how necessary is the FWQ program, in your estimate? Is it overkill to have guys this experienced go through an expedited UPT process with all three phases of training? Would it be more beneficial/cost effective to have them skip T-6s and go straight to T-1s or go directly to T-1s and then to the FTU?

[Guest CAVEMAN]

Interesting. I have a good friend who was a CW3 and just finished FWQ about 3 weeks ago. I wonder how it's a budgetary issue, considering the FWQ dudes get less flights. Seems to me like it would be worth leaving the program open at one of the UPT bases, from a financial standpoint.

Rainman, how necessary is the FWQ program, in your estimate? Is it overkill to have guys this experienced go through an expedited UPT process with all three phases of training? Would it be more beneficial/cost effective to have them skip T-6s and go straight to T-1s or go directly to T-1s and then to the FTU?

I know you said Rainman, but ....

Skip T-6? So where does the core Fixed Wing experience come from? Mind you, some of these guys may not be strong with Instrument flying/procedures.

[Guest]

Interesting. I have a good friend who was a CW3 and just finished FWQ about 3 weeks ago. I wonder how it's a budgetary issue, considering the FWQ dudes get less flights. Seems to me like it would be worth leaving the program open at one of the UPT bases, from a financial standpoint.

Rainman, how necessary is the FWQ program, in your estimate? Is it overkill to have guys this experienced go through an expedited UPT process with all three phases of training? Would it be more beneficial/cost effective to have them skip T-6s and go straight to T-1s or go directly to T-1s and then to the FTU?

I think making them go through the entire UPT process is overkill.

They could probably handle the T-1 right out of the gate no problem if they are going to a heavy. I think it would be smart to have a bit of T-6 before the T-38 f they were going to a fighter. I cannot imagine a need for them to go through the entire UPT course but they probably did the math and figured out it is cheaper to do that than have a separate FWQ program. That's just speculation on my part.

I know you said Rainman, but ....

Skip T-6? So where does the core Fixed Wing experience come from? Mind you, some of these guys may not be strong with Instrument flying/procedures.

WTF is "core fixed wing experience?" These guys are real life professional pilots, many with thousands of hours. And they all have instrument ratings. If they need more instrument experience/training they can do it in the sim.

It's not like they're going to get in a fixed wing airplane and wonder WTF is going on.

One of the guys in my FWQ class had <1khrs Cobra, >2khrs H-60 and >4khrs in the Citation. He was flying for customs out of Tucson and going to the AZ ANG tanker unit. He was an excellent pilot and he could've gone straight to RTU. FWQ was a joke for him.

FWIW, my FWQ at Vance consisted of <30hrs in the Tweet and ~40hrs in the T-38 (less than 75hrs total) and I was off to Holloman for LIFT. I don't remember being overwhelmed at Vance but I did need to pay attention and learn fast. The only problem I had was with the FAIPs in Tweet check section who wanted to shit all over me because I was taking a contact check with 10 hrs/instrument check with <20 hrs in the jet. I didn't hook any checkrides but they liked to point out the the top UPT students did some things better than I did. That really hurt my feelings. The best part of the FWQ program was that I spent min time at a white jet base.

[Royal]

I think making them go through the entire UPT process is overkill.

The only problem I had was with the FAIPs in Tweet check section who wanted to shit all over me because I was taking a contact check with 10 hrs/instrument check with <20 hrs in the jet. I didn't hook any checkrides but they liked to point out the the top UPT students did some things better than I did.

I saw my friend go through the same thing. FAIPs, some of whom hadn't been out of UPT or PIT more than a year, were giving a rated combat pilot shit because they were on a power trip. He was landing in hot LZs in Iraq, saving marines' lives while these douche bags were in still junior high trying to steal a kiss from Suzie Rottencrotch.

[matmacwc]

I saw my friend go through the same thing. FAIPs, some of whom hadn't been out of UPT or PIT more than a year, were giving a rated combat pilot shit because they were on a power trip. He was landing in hot LZs in Iraq, saving marines' lives while these douche bags were in still junior high trying to steal a kiss from Suzie Rottencrotch.

And I also saw FWQ dudes struggle through T-6's, nearly wash out of T-38 and then get a CR at RTU. In fact, the 4 years I was at DLF, I saw most of those dudes struggle.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

WTF is "core fixed wing experience?" These guys are real life professional pilots, many with thousands of hours. And they all have instrument ratings. If they need more instrument experience/training they can do it in the sim.

It's not like they're going to get in a fixed wing airplane and wonder WTF is going on.

One of the guys in my FWQ class had <1khrs Cobra, >2khrs H-60 and >4khrs in the Citation. He was flying for customs out of Tucson and going to the AZ ANG tanker unit. He was an excellent pilot and he could've gone straight to RTU. FWQ was a joke for him.

FWIW, my FWQ at Vance consisted of <30hrs in the Tweet and ~40hrs in the T-38 (less than 75hrs total) and I was off to Holloman for LIFT. I don't remember being overwhelmed at Vance but I did need to pay attention and learn fast. The only problem I had was with the FAIPs in Tweet check section who wanted to shit all over me because I was taking a contact check with 10 hrs/instrument check with <20 hrs in the jet. I didn't hook any checkrides but they liked to point out the the top UPT students did some things better than I did. That really hurt my feelings. The best part of the FWQ program was that I spent min time at a white jet base.

WTF?? Exactly WTF it says. The average Army pilot has no fixed wing background whatsoever. They don't get a T-6, T-37 or T-34 background in Phase I like you did or get the Army fixed wing training. Haven said that, I am sure you will agree that the dude/duddette should at least get some fundamentals of fixed wing flying down before moving to fly a white jet. Of course, this is not true for everyone coming from the Army as some guys will already have some fixed wing experience but it is not always the case. I know Army guys learn to fly instrument but some of them don't fly it as much to stay sharp. The Kiowa guys come to mind. So it does not hurt that Instrument Refresher is thrown into the mix when they get introduced to fixed wing flying.

From a policy perspective, how do you create a one-size-fits-all other than making everyone go through the same program ? And I agree, a full length UPT is probably overkill but sending some of these guys directly to an RTU is reckless and who makes the call?

And I also saw FWQ dudes struggle through T-6's, nearly wash out of T-38 and then get a CR at RTU. In fact, the 4 years I was at DLF, I saw most of those dudes struggle.

Go figure.

[Termy]

I was a fixed wing qual guy with 1100 hours helo and about 150 fixed wing from out of pocket civilian renting. I did Fwq for tweets but since Vance hadn't had a fighter follow on "in a long time," I went though T-38s with a UPT class. I did fine in that and IFF and RTU. I would have gladly gone though UPT if that's what they wanted, but the age thing would have screwed me. That is the issue to me. Call it cost savings or whatever, but it doesn't seem fair to call a guy who has been flying helos "too old." Let the guard or reserve unit that is hiring the pilot determine if age is a factor.

[Guest]

And I also saw FWQ dudes struggle through T-6's, nearly wash out of T-38 and then get a CR at RTU. In fact, the 4 years I was at DLF, I saw most of those dudes struggle.

Whatever. I'm sure there were plenty of douchebags who thought I was struggling, too. I was glad to get the min time at an ATC/AETC base and be off to fly a real mission again. I never took any shit from any of those guys if I bumped into them in the CAF if/when they finally made it there.

WTF?? Exactly WTF it says. The average Army pilot has no fixed wing background whatsoever. They don't get a T-6, T-37 or T-34 background in Phase I like you did or get the Army fixed wing training.

Check yourself dumbass. The only fixed wing time I had was what I got going through the flight screening program at Hondo. That was about 15 hours. I went direct from Hondo to Ft Rucker. The first time I saw a Tweet was at Vance.

Haven said that, I am sure you will agree that the dude/duddette should at least get some fundamentals of fixed wing flying down before moving to fly a white jet.

No, I would not agree. I meant what I said in my earlier post. Like I said, I finished FWQ with less than 75 hrs of white jet time and my fixed wing career seemed to go just fine.

I know Army guys learn to fly instrument but some of them don't fly it as much to stay sharp. The Kiowa guys come to mind. So it does not hurt that Instrument Refresher is thrown into the mix when they get introduced to fixed wing flying.

They are instrument rated. A refresher is fine. Is there something cosmic or magic about instrument flying?

From a policy perspective, how do you create a one-size-fits-all other than making everyone go through the same program ? And I agree, a full length UPT is probably overkill but sending some of these guys directly to an RTU is reckless and who makes the call?

The FWQ program was somewhat self paced when I went through. There was a minimum, standard and maximum number of rides for every phase and sub phase. If you were flying the min it was a good sign but you were getting shorted hours and forced to a checkride early. Whatever, big boy program...but you might not look good to a guy like matmacwc.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

Check yourself dumbass. The only fixed wing time I had was what I got going through the flight screening program at Hondo. That was about 15 hours. I went direct from Hondo to Ft Rucker. The first time I saw a Tweet was at Vance.

Ok Yeager; you and the horse you ride on.

[Learjetter]

Ok Yeager; Fuck you and the horse you ride on.

Now, THERE'S some Christmas spirit!

[Guest]

I know you said Rainman, but ....

You answered for me and got the wrong answer. Is that a surprise to you? Your answer was an opinion which was backed up by...your opinion.

Ok Yeager; Fuck you and the horse you ride on.

Nice dismount. Very nice. Merry Christmas to you.

[SocialD]

What about the RWQ? Or was that already shutdown?

[Learjetter]

What about the RWQ? Or was that already shutdown?

I've asked that question of my flesh peddler three times during my career--the answer has always been: "we're full up on helo co-pilots, try again later". According to the helo guy at AFPC during a visit last Sept, he said they're getting all the new pilots they need from UPT...and it would be a "very unconventional" career move to go from fixed-wing IP FGO to helo copilot. I've flown/been IP /EP in several airframes so far...I'd love to add helos to my AF experiences...so I'll keep trying until I retire.

edit: grammar and damn iPhone autocorrect

Edited December 26, 2011 by Learjetter

[fire4effect]

Rainman A-10, on 23 December 2011 - 08:19 PM, said:

Check yourself dumbass. The only fixed wing time I had was what I got going through the flight screening program at Hondo. That was about 15 hours. I went direct from Hondo to Ft Rucker. The first time I saw a Tweet was at Vance.

Ok Yeager; ###### you and the horse you ride on.

Wow,

Wonder what the average blood alcohol content is for posters on Christmas Day?

Not that I would EVER drink and post

Edited December 26, 2011 by fire4effect

[Guest]

Why are you quoting me for that? I didn't post that crap.

[fire4effect]

Why are you quoting me for that? I didn't post that crap.

Sorry, poor cut and paste job. See kids don't drink and post

[alwyn2d]

For Army AWOs it appears the age is lowered from 34 for OTS down to 30 entering UPT. That will take a lot of Army pilots out of the running if wishing to go active duty, or Res/Guard SUPT. Too bad, it's a good cross flow from AF enlisted to AWO and Army pilots to AF jocks.

Edited December 28, 2011 by alwyn2d