Airlift and Air Refueling Squadrons

[Techsan]

I love Herks, and think we've got the best crews in AMC, but that being said...

...airlifters fly to all the crappy places. In my Herk experience, good deals are few and far between, even when CONUS side.

...tankers never have to worry about spending the night in Mosul (or ever even going there).

...tankers don't get shot at.

...airlifters (well, Herks..) have long ground times in 120+ degree heat with no air conditioning.

Depends what you want. If you're a down-in-it kinda guy, go airlift. If you're a help-the-mission kinda guy, go tanker. I'm pretty sure they make alot more bucks on TDY's than we do too.

Though not shot at as often as the herky bird, we have had pot shots taken at us a few times. Low & slow & well within the WEZ. In fact, usually we're low & slow because we're trying to fly @ 190 KIAS refueling the -130.

[Dead Last]

Though not shot at as often as the herky bird, we have had pot shots taken at us a few times. Low & slow & well within the WEZ. In fact, usually we're low & slow because we're trying to fly @ 190 KIAS refueling the -130.

And we thank you!

cheers

And it's already been said, go MC's... you'll do ALL of the missions.

[scawtiedog]

My knowledge is not current, but from when the RTs were my bread & butter at McConnell (7+ years now), your chances of being qual'd to fly the RTs was about 100%--that's just a difference check that doesn't even require a flight portion, and the RTs are frequently used like any other tail on the day-to-day flying schedule, so everyone needed that. Your chances of being ARR qual'd varied depending on which squadron you were in. That pissed a lot of people off, but it boiled down to available training hours (not everyone could maintain qual in the available time). If you were in an "RT squadron," your chances of getting qual'd were pretty high, all things being equal; otherwise, chances were pretty low. Similar breakdown on the special ops mission qual, though there were special ops pilots who were not ARR qual'd (few) and some ARR pilots who were not special ops qual'd (plenty). The difference was that the SOCOM apportionment (the reason the RTs exist) dictated a certain number of special ops crews, and it's much easier to take an ARR-qual'd guy and spin him up on his special ops qual than to start from scratch. The special ops qual w/o ARR qual was more a case of incomplete training than a by-design qual level.

Jughead got most of it, few changes since your last RT. Now pretty much everyone at McConnell gets qual'd on spec ops and the squadrons share the burden on the RT, equally split among all 4.

1. Tankers don't fly to Antarctica.

- Yep, got me there.

2. Tankers don't fly channel missions throughout the Pacific to places like Wake Island, Guam, etc.

- Wrong. Seen channel missions in the -135, had guys go through Wake, Guam, Hickam, etc.

3. Tankers normally fly to a theater and stay (i.e. Manas, the Deid). The strat airlift crews mostly fly into and

out of the theater (unless they're part of the AEF)

- Pretty sure my C-17 buddies doing 120's at the Deid would argue

4. Airlift crews get to land in Afghanistan and Iraq (to me that's a plus). Tanker crews don't as far as I know.

- There's a standard -135 AE mission into Afghanistan.

5. Airlift crews (C-17, C-5, and Spec Ops C-130's) get qualified in air-air refueling (once again a plus). Most

tanker pilots are not air-air qualified (receiving end).

- See above and Jughead's post, as well as the -10's.

6. KC-135 bases are at RAF Mildenhall, Fairchild, McConnell, and MacDill. (Can't remember anymore).

C-17 units are in better locations like McChord, Travis, Charleston, Elmendorf, Hickam, etc.

- Don't forget the associate units open now at March, Seymour, Scott, Hickam

Don't get me wrong, I think the airlift mission is great, but don't go around thinking all we do is go to the Deid and make left turns for 8 hours a day.

[Hammer]

Jughead got most of it, few changes since your last RT. Now pretty much everyone at McConnell gets qual'd on spec ops and the squadrons share the burden on the RT, equally split among all 4.

Don't get me wrong, I think the airlift mission is great, but don't go around thinking all we do is go to the Deid and make left turns for 8 hours a day.

It's March, Scott, Birmingham and Pease for the associated units.

[Guest KC10 FATboy]

I would choose airlift, for the following reasons:

1. Tankers don't fly to Antarctica.

2. Tankers don't fly channel missions throughout the Pacific to places like Wake Island, Guam, etc.

3. Tankers normally fly to a theater and stay (i.e. Manas, the Deid). The strat airlift crews mostly fly into and

out of the theater (unless they're part of the AEF)

4. Airlift crews get to land in Afghanistan and Iraq (to me that's a plus). Tanker crews don't as far as I know.

5. Airlift crews (C-17, C-5, and Spec Ops C-130's) get qualified in air-air refueling (once again a plus). Most

tanker pilots are not air-air qualified (receiving end).

6. KC-135 bases are at RAF Mildenhall, Fairchild, McConnell, and MacDill. (Can't remember anymore).

C-17 units are in better locations like McChord, Travis, Charleston, Elmendorf, Hickam, etc.

Red

1. True. Does anyone really desire to fly there???

2. False. Makes me wonder if Red and I are in the same Air Force.

3. Mainly true. Tankers and most C-130s deploy to theatre. A growing number of C-17s deploy; however, it is a much smaller percent by total airframes.

4. False. KC-10s fly airlift missions to these locations.

5. Very False. I can assure you, as a KC-10 guy, you will spend more time behind another tanker than any other platform in AMC. There is a KC-135RT unit that also does Receiver AR.

6. Lots of bases missing here on both sides. To each his own.

Here is my take on the OP's question. Examine your long term career goals and decide which locations you would like to live in for the next 8-10 years. If your goal is to someday civilian, ANY airplane (135, 10, 17, 5, 130,) will get you hired.

Here is my take on the KC-10. I love it because we have a lot of different mission types.

Pros:

1. You get a type rating. The DC-10s are practically phased out in civilian life, but it still looks good on your license.

2. When you go on a mission, you keep the same airplane. Very rarely do we crew swap, less bag dragging. I've never done it in 8 years.

3. KC-10s do airlift. The KC-10 can haul roughly 170,000lbs on 27 pallets. Although cargo isn't the mainstay for the KC-10, you will see it.

4. KC-10s do receiver and tanker air refueling. They can refuel just about everything in the US, NATO, and most foreign countries arsenal. The types of missions vary. You can turn holes in the skies with fighters on the wings, or hit the C-17 on the east coast and be home for dinner.

5. You'll go on "business efforts". This is when a fighter or testing unit hires a KC-10 for AR support / testing. For example, you'll go to Eglin for 2 weeks to support live fire missile testing / AR proficiency for the fighters.

6. Fighter Drags -- the KC-10's bread and butter mission. Here you move passengers, cargo, and ferry fighters across the oceans. They're extremely complex and challenging. The aircraft must be "in-place" 24 hours before the movement. If the mission doesn't start at homestation (which it rarely will), you will get 24 hours off where ever the fighters are (that can be good or bad). Because of limitations for the fighter pilots, you will fly banker's hours.

6. DV Support. The KC-10 flies a lot of VIP / DV support. In fact, once I became an instructor pilot, most of my missions aside from the desert deployments were DV missions.

7. You have a engineer.

Cons:

1. If you want to get promoted, KC-10s aren't the answer. We are a small community, we do not have a WIC, and you are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, AMC, and the tanker world.

2. You will get deployed and unfortunately, you will be more deployed than ever before. There's nothing more demoralizing to come home from a 3 month deployment and before you get to your house, the scheduler is calling you to put you into crewrest for a 2-week Channel mission. Yes, its rare, but it happens.

3. If you don't like spending time in an orbit pattern or having airplanes in close formation with you, don't select the KC-10

4. No glass cockpit ... yet.

5. McGuire

6. Consolidation AR. Since the KC-10 is receiver air refueling capable, any tanker leaving the AOR with extra gas gets consolidated into a KC-10. This is to maximize the gas "in the box". The result, you're cozy 5 hour mission gets extended to 8, 9, maybe 14 hours. :(

7. No low-level or air drop.

8. No defensive systems.

9. ATP-56B ... soon you will understand

[Techsan]

Fatboy--

I would have put McGuire @ #1 on the CONS list.

[Guest KC10 FATboy]

Fatboy--

I would have put McGuire @ #1 on the CONS list.

Hahaha, I can relate. I'm from the midwest and NJ is definitely not high on places to live. But after spending 8 years there, it has grown on me.

There are some positives about McGuire. It is close to NYC, Philadelphia, beaches, gambling (Atlantic City), and the Pocono Mountains. Unfortunately, it is in one of the most liberal states and has some of the highest property taxes and insurance rates in the country.

For you Nascar fans, it is the only base located within two hours drive of two major races ... Pocono 500 and the Monster Mile (Delaware).

Also don't forget that there are more registered hunters in PA than any other state. You can easily live across the river and avoid some of NJ's bullcrap.

[joe1234]

1. If you want to get promoted, KC-10s aren't the answer. We are a small community, we do not have a WIC, and you are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, AMC, and the tanker world.

Wait, slow down, if KC-10's are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, then helos must be the baby that the Air Force left in the dumpster after prom night, 135's are the kid it sold into slavery to work in a sweatshop, and Herks were left in the forest to be raised by wolves.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't sell yourself short here.

[outbreak]

Wait, slow down, if KC-10's are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, then helos must be the baby that the Air Force left in the dumpster after prom night, 135's are the kid it sold into slavery to work in a sweatshop, and Herks were left in the forest to be raised by wolves.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't sell yourself short here.

And if all that is true, then the Bone is the 30 year old that does little more than sit on the couch all day but mom just won't throw out because he's her "baby."

Edited August 24, 2009 by outbreak

[Guest CA]

And for CA who said he hopes to the fly the C-17 because it doesn't go to Antarctica, well you're slightly wrong.

Not what I said. He said that tankers don't fly to Antarctica, C-17's do, and I would volunteer for that flight every day if I could.

[magnetfreezer]

And if all that is true, then the Bone is the 30 year old that does little more than sit on the couch all day but mom just won't throw out because he's her "baby."

I guess that makes the B-52 the old guy who has to go back to work at Walmart since none of his kids found jobs?

[JeepGuyC17]

And if all that is true, then the Bone is the 30 year old that does little more than sit on the couch all day but mom just won't throw out because he's her "baby."

So I guess what happened last year was mom and dad got hauled off to jail by child protective services for making the UAV's live in the basement, feeding them moldy bread and rainwater.

Edited August 24, 2009 by JeepGuyC17

[outbreak]

So I guess what happened last year was mom and dad got hauled off to jail by child protective services for making the UAV's live in the basement, feeding them moldy bread and rainwater.

Sounds like the UAV's got more than they deserved...

[kapilot]

Here is my take on the KC-10. I love it because we have a lot of different mission types.

Pros:

1. You get a type rating. The DC-10s are practically phased out in civilian life, but it still looks good on your license.

2. When you go on a mission, you keep the same airplane. Very rarely do we crew swap, less bag dragging. I've never done it in 8 years.

3. KC-10s do airlift. The KC-10 can haul roughly 170,000lbs on 27 pallets. Although cargo isn't the mainstay for the KC-10, you will see it.

4. KC-10s do receiver and tanker air refueling. They can refuel just about everything in the US, NATO, and most foreign countries arsenal. The types of missions vary. You can turn holes in the skies with fighters on the wings, or hit the C-17 on the east coast and be home for dinner.

5. You'll go on "business efforts". This is when a fighter or testing unit hires a KC-10 for AR support / testing. For example, you'll go to Eglin for 2 weeks to support live fire missile testing / AR proficiency for the fighters.

6. Fighter Drags -- the KC-10's bread and butter mission. Here you move passengers, cargo, and ferry fighters across the oceans. They're extremely complex and challenging. The aircraft must be "in-place" 24 hours before the movement. If the mission doesn't start at homestation (which it rarely will), you will get 24 hours off where ever the fighters are (that can be good or bad). Because of limitations for the fighter pilots, you will fly banker's hours.

6. DV Support. The KC-10 flies a lot of VIP / DV support. In fact, once I became an instructor pilot, most of my missions aside from the desert deployments were DV missions.

7. You have a engineer.

Cons:

1. If you want to get promoted, KC-10s aren't the answer. We are a small community, we do not have a WIC, and you are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, AMC, and the tanker world.

2. You will get deployed and unfortunately, you will be more deployed than ever before. There's nothing more demoralizing to come home from a 3 month deployment and before you get to your house, the scheduler is calling you to put you into crewrest for a 2-week Channel mission. Yes, its rare, but it happens.

3. If you don't like spending time in an orbit pattern or having airplanes in close formation with you, don't select the KC-10

4. No glass cockpit ... yet.

5. McGuire

6. Consolidation AR. Since the KC-10 is receiver air refueling capable, any tanker leaving the AOR with extra gas gets consolidated into a KC-10. This is to maximize the gas "in the box". The result, you're cozy 5 hour mission gets extended to 8, 9, maybe 14 hours. :(

7. No low-level or air drop.

8. No defensive systems.

9. ATP-56B ... soon you will understand

[aquajam77]

Not what I said. He said that tankers don't fly to Antarctica, C-17's do, and I would volunteer for that flight every day if I could.

I would too

[Karl Hungus]

"No glass cockpit... yet" should read "No glass cockpit... ever".

[Hammer]

The 135 gets a 707 type.

[Guest KC10 FATboy]

"No glass cockpit... yet" should read "No glass cockpit... ever".

Never say never ... or ever.

Boeing Submits Proposal for US Air Force KC-10 Cockpit Upgrades

ST. LOUIS, July 28, 2009 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced it has submitted a proposal to the U.S. Air Force to upgrade the cockpits of the service's fleet of 59 KC-10 Extender tanker/transport aircraft. The proposal covers engineering and manufacturing development, production and installation of the KC-10 Communications, Navigation, Surveillance and Air Traffic Management (CNS/ATM) modification.

CNS/ATM uses a systems approach to improve pilot awareness, streamline tasks, and otherwise enhance safety in a high-technology environment.

"This upgrade will allow the fleet to retain worldwide access to airspace in compliance with Global Air Traffic Management requirements," said Boeing KC-10 Program Director Mike Wright. "Boeing believes it has a strong proposal, given the success of the company's (K) DC-10 Cockpit Upgrade Program (CUP) for the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF). The CUP modification offers an affordable, proven solution for other aircraft, including the KC-10."

Boeing works with the RNLAF and partner Fokker Services on CUP, which includes a new flight-management system, display system and improved communications -- all components of the CNS/ATM configuration. Boeing and Fokker Services are performing the modification on two (K) DC-10 air refueling tankers and one DC-10 transport at a Fokker Services facility in the Netherlands, where the program's ground testing certification is two thirds complete. Flight-test certification and delivery of the first aircraft are scheduled to take place this fall.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=767

Edited August 25, 2009 by KC10 FATboy

[JarheadBoom]

"No glass cockpit... yet" should read "No glass cockpit... ever".

You shut your mouth. If they canx the funding for this again, we may lose the funding for our new BCUs, too...

* BCU = Boom Control Unit; the computer for the KC-10 fly-by-wire boom.

[Red Fox]

1. True. Does anyone really desire to fly there???

2. False. Makes me wonder if Red and I are in the same Air Force.

3. Mainly true. Tankers and most C-130s deploy to theatre. A growing number of C-17s deploy; however, it is a much smaller percent by total airframes.

4. False. KC-10s fly airlift missions to these locations.

5. Very False. I can assure you, as a KC-10 guy, you will spend more time behind another tanker than any other platform in AMC. There is a KC-135RT unit that also does Receiver AR.

6. Lots of bases missing here on both sides. To each his own.

Here is my take on the OP's question. Examine your long term career goals and decide which locations you would like to live in for the next 8-10 years. If your goal is to someday civilian, ANY airplane (135, 10, 17, 5, 130,) will get you hired.

Here is my take on the KC-10. I love it because we have a lot of different mission types.

Pros:

1. You get a type rating. The DC-10s are practically phased out in civilian life, but it still looks good on your license.

2. When you go on a mission, you keep the same airplane. Very rarely do we crew swap, less bag dragging. I've never done it in 8 years.

3. KC-10s do airlift. The KC-10 can haul roughly 170,000lbs on 27 pallets. Although cargo isn't the mainstay for the KC-10, you will see it.

4. KC-10s do receiver and tanker air refueling. They can refuel just about everything in the US, NATO, and most foreign countries arsenal. The types of missions vary. You can turn holes in the skies with fighters on the wings, or hit the C-17 on the east coast and be home for dinner.

5. You'll go on "business efforts". This is when a fighter or testing unit hires a KC-10 for AR support / testing. For example, you'll go to Eglin for 2 weeks to support live fire missile testing / AR proficiency for the fighters.

6. Fighter Drags -- the KC-10's bread and butter mission. Here you move passengers, cargo, and ferry fighters across the oceans. They're extremely complex and challenging. The aircraft must be "in-place" 24 hours before the movement. If the mission doesn't start at homestation (which it rarely will), you will get 24 hours off where ever the fighters are (that can be good or bad). Because of limitations for the fighter pilots, you will fly banker's hours.

6. DV Support. The KC-10 flies a lot of VIP / DV support. In fact, once I became an instructor pilot, most of my missions aside from the desert deployments were DV missions.

7. You have a engineer.

Cons:

1. If you want to get promoted, KC-10s aren't the answer. We are a small community, we do not have a WIC, and you are the red headed stepchild of the Air Force, AMC, and the tanker world.

2. You will get deployed and unfortunately, you will be more deployed than ever before. There's nothing more demoralizing to come home from a 3 month deployment and before you get to your house, the scheduler is calling you to put you into crewrest for a 2-week Channel mission. Yes, its rare, but it happens.

3. If you don't like spending time in an orbit pattern or having airplanes in close formation with you, don't select the KC-10

4. No glass cockpit ... yet.

5. McGuire

6. Consolidation AR. Since the KC-10 is receiver air refueling capable, any tanker leaving the AOR with extra gas gets consolidated into a KC-10. This is to maximize the gas "in the box". The result, you're cozy 5 hour mission gets extended to 8, 9, maybe 14 hours. :(

7. No low-level or air drop.

8. No defensive systems.

9. ATP-56B ... soon you will understand

Fat Boy,

Your post was informative. I based my first post on the assumption the person who started this thread is in pilot training and will be in the active duty. You made some good points and I did not realize that AD tankers fly Pacific channels. In my previous post I did write I haven't flown down-range since 2004 (I'm retired) and that my opinions were not set in stone (meaning fallible). But in my 20+ years of experience, I didn't see AD tankers (ANG/Reserve is different) flying regularly scheduled channels (very often). I certainly saw them flying fighter drags and sitting alert (many years ago). Are the active duty 135s regularly flying channels now? Do KC-10s? In the past, the -10 was in such high demand for fighter movements/deployments that I had the impression they weren't available for channels. When I attended HQPACAF exercise/tanker conferences, I saw how hard it could be to get -10s for a fighter drag (big deal when flying across the Pacific). I also wrote MOST tanker pilots are not receiver qualified. I know -10 pilots are, but how many -135 pilots? Also, are there many assignments to the -10 straight out of SUPT? My assumption (could be wrong) is no. If so, then a pilot straight out of SUPT will likely fly -135s, at first, if he/she takes the tanker route and will be stationed at an AD -135 base (Mildenhall, MacDill, McConnell, etc). That also means he/she will be flying missions assigned to the AD -135 squadron he/she will be assigned. Its my impression that ANG/Reserve 135s have more choice in the missions (like channels)and that the AD units tend to be deployed more in order to support current operations. I am surprised to learn than -10s fly into the theater, especially without a defensive system. I guess the taxiways have been widened and the threat diminished enough to warrant the risk. The -10 should be considered a HVAA (if not already). The USAF should have bought more when it had the chance. I'm interested in any additional thoughts you may have.

Regards,

Red

[scawtiedog]

Awesome insight. For those of us headed to 135's, can anyone speak about how close the 135 house is to this description of the 10? I know the two are pretty similar but the primary difference I'm picking up is that the 10's can stay aloft longer and have more cargo missions. Is this the only big difference?

-135 side is pretty similar to the -10. Biggest difference is we don't really do cargo missions, don't have the room. I have taken a fully loaded jet, but it was full of our own maintenance/support gear. On the plus side, we don't do consolidation. The RT's only take gas if there is a receiver that needs it. Defintely do the business efforts, fighter drags, and DV missions. Expect to be deployed half the year. Typical rotation is 2 months out, 2 months home (or less).

[Aurora85]

I would choose airlift, for the following reasons:

1. Tankers don't fly to Antarctica.

2. Tankers don't fly channel missions throughout the Pacific to places like Wake Island, Guam, etc.

3. Tankers normally fly to a theater and stay (i.e. Manas, the Deid). The strat airlift crews mostly fly into and

out of the theater (unless they're part of the AEF)

4. Airlift crews get to land in Afghanistan and Iraq (to me that's a plus). Tanker crews don't as far as I know.

5. Airlift crews (C-17, C-5, and Spec Ops C-130's) get qualified in air-air refueling (once again a plus). Most

tanker pilots are not air-air qualified (receiving end).

6. KC-135 bases are at RAF Mildenhall, Fairchild, McConnell, and MacDill. (Can't remember anymore).

C-17 units are in better locations like McChord, Travis, Charleston, Elmendorf, Hickam, etc.

I'm an ORF and haven't been to SW Asia in almost 5 years, so I may be out of touch with recent events or missions. I flew the C-130 and the C-17. I flew both to places that I know a tanker would never go. (Like dirt strips in the Canadian Arctic). I'm biased, but I think the C-17 has the best mission in the AF. These are my opinions and they are not written in stone. Good luck!

Red

My fellow Gucci boys ahead of me in the post pretty much detailed everything about the -10 that is good and bad. I will say that I found point 2. up here funny as I just got back from a Coronet run going right through Hawaii, Wake, and then up to Misawa. We have a lot of trips through the Pacific.

Looking back in my logbook I have been on about 5 Channel runs within the last FY. The best one of which is the E-1 going down to Australia. It is now being run by C-17s however.

I'm pretty biased on the -10, but it is a pretty amazing airplane from a pilot's perspective. From day 1 I was receiving receiver work as a new co pilot. Again, this is a biased statement but I think -10 guys are generally some of the best heavy AR receivers in the system. About every local sortie we have gets us a chance to AR as well as many force extensions on the road.

We go to some amazing places..sure we aren't tactical minus our run into Bagram every now and then, but we still hit some pretty awesome locations.

When I was at UPT the -10 was desired and harder to come by. Typically went to the top studs in the class that wanted it. I'm pretty sure its still that way to my understanding. The only downfall to the assignment at least for Active Duty studs, is the amount of Desert time you are going to see. Might as well get ready to be getting a great tan year around at the lovely Al Dhafra.

Finally the McGoo isn't that bad of a place to be based. Sure it is no Travis, but there is a lot around to do. Close to DC, NYC, and Philly while still being able to live in suburbia.

Anymore questions ask away, but I think the highlights have been covered already.

[Dead Last]

Never say never ... or ever.

Boeing Submits Proposal for US Air Force KC-10 Cockpit Upgrades

ST. LOUIS, July 28, 2009 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced it has submitted a proposal to the U.S. Air Force to upgrade the cockpits of the service's fleet of 59 KC-10 Extender tanker/transport aircraft. The proposal covers engineering and manufacturing development, production and installation of the KC-10 Communications, Navigation, Surveillance and Air Traffic Management (CNS/ATM) modification.

CNS/ATM uses a systems approach to improve pilot awareness, streamline tasks, and otherwise enhance safety in a high-technology environment.

"This upgrade will allow the fleet to retain worldwide access to airspace in compliance with Global Air Traffic Management requirements," said Boeing KC-10 Program Director Mike Wright. "Boeing believes it has a strong proposal, given the success of the company's (K) DC-10 Cockpit Upgrade Program (CUP) for the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF). The CUP modification offers an affordable, proven solution for other aircraft, including the KC-10."

Boeing works with the RNLAF and partner Fokker Services on CUP, which includes a new flight-management system, display system and improved communications -- all components of the CNS/ATM configuration. Boeing and Fokker Services are performing the modification on two (K) DC-10 air refueling tankers and one DC-10 transport at a Fokker Services facility in the Netherlands, where the program's ground testing certification is two thirds complete. Flight-test certification and delivery of the first aircraft are scheduled to take place this fall.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=767

And now we really know what happened to the C-130 AMP program...

un-f'n-believable

cheers

[Jimmy.The.Engineer]

The gay model happened to the AMP program too.

[Karl Hungus]

And now we really know what happened to the C-130 AMP program...

un-f'n-believable

cheers

Just because Boeing submitted a proposal doesn't mean it's going to happen. There have been numerous iterations of these proposals, and none so far have worked out. So I'll believe the KC-10 gets glass when I see it.