Guest Jango Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 You know what pisses me off? MATH. And not just math but math used in error, to attempt to prove a point. 69% of all statistics are made up on the spot (/sarcasm). Always, always, always do your homework. Now, ASS-uming active duty numbers only: FROM THE USAF WEBSITE OBTAINED HERE: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/airforcepersonnelstatistics.asp I dont know what you guys are bitching about, this thread entertains the shit outta me. .02 cents all around! Chuck Chuck, Thank you for checking the math, I went to the exact same place you did for the #s, I tried to be conservative with my math(not cooking the books), and my .2% was purely a guesstimate and I did indicate that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Noted. Where was the closest friendly soldier when Fingers Goldfein was shot down in '99? 244 bombs fell on Baghdad during Desert Strom. How many soldiers saw the Baghdad skyline during Desert Storm? Linebacker II was to get North Vietnam back to the peace talks and had about as much to do with the coast guard as it did the army. I spent a year deployed with the infantry. Only saw a handful of Joes (I'd estimate less than 10) who were 18. The average age is somewhere around 30. I get the sentiment of the whole "18 year grunt" statement, but we don't need to add any more kitsch to it, it's not a bumper sticker. Fundamentally, you and I see the world from different perspectives. I spent 11 years in the Marines before I transferred to the Air Force. Therefore, during my formative years, I was taught (and believed) that everything I did was for the sole purpose of making the grunts successful. I still believe that. Today, whether I am talking with a JTAC in Afghanistan or cruising over strategic country X, I can still see why my efforts ultimately will make the grunts more successful. They don't have to be physically there to enjoy the benefits my job provides. I understand why Pawnman considers my thoughts a stretch, but at the same time, I think he is myopic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBock Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) Ok. This is an easy question. If pilots run the majority of the Air Force, then why do we still have these nit-noid rules? Another question is, why are they having us enforce those rules? This is an easy answer. The O-6 lobotomy. Edited October 13, 2010 by GBock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jango Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 This is an easy answer. The O-6 lobotomy. So qweep work turns them into a shoe clerk too? Impressive.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redmammal Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 pilots could be a little more nicer to those around them, at least... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBock Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 So qweep work turns them into a shoe clerk too? Impressive.... No. Any zipper-suited senior officer will tell you they are "ops focused". While not entirely untrue, the focus changes from being a crew dog and helping your bros to not looking bad in front of your commander friends and not taking dings on inspections so that you impress your general officer boss. It's called the O-6 lobotomy. Entire different animal than a shoe. But lets keep this on topic. Or better yet, since we all agree to disagree (with you), you should probably go and get that pick-up from spot 52. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jango Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Or better yet, since we all agree to disagree (with you), you should probably go and get that pick-up from spot 52. thanks. From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp..... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redmammal Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp..... oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crew Report Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride... Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter. From the looks of some responders I see some that agree with me....heck they even got negative points from it too....damn. Spot 52 you say? Sorry Command Post just called, the air field is closed, something about lightning w/ in 5nm. Can't risk any movement on the ramp..... Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I have a theory. Hear me out on this one. Okay, let's say you have around 330,000 people in the Air Force. Enlisted-wise, there's about 140k in ops and maintenance. Officer-wise, you have 35k in ops and maintenance for a total of 175k people who are actually involved with actual airplanes, space, and missiles. The rest are support, which make up about 155k. So, look at it from the point of view a random support guy. Say you're just some random comm guy. You support EVERYONE on base, not just the flyers. So you're supporting the finance, personnel, medical, ops, maintenance, and so on and so forth. Ops is just another part of the base. Other than that, you have absolutely nothing to do with the actual operations going on. All you see when you come to work are random dudes in ABU's, and the people you work with. You might see a few dudes in bags at the clinic or something, but that's about it. You are completely separate from the OG/MXG and never see them unless you're at a Wing/CC call, and at that point the ops guys are a small minority. What I'm saying here is that if you're a support guy, ops is just another customer you have to support, you don't actually think "I exist because I'm here to support ops". So, if some of these guys don't give a shit about the mission, then it's because half of the Air Force has absolutely nothing to do with flying airplanes, they're just part of the logistical footprint that grows into a monster unto itself that must be supported by...support. Picture it this way, let's say hypothetically every aircraft requires 3 ops guys to operate it, 10 guys to maintain it, and 20 guys (mil+civ) to support them. Now say it's 10 aircraft, now you need 30 ops guys, 150 guys to maintain them, and 300 support. Now let's say it's 100 aircraft, you need 300 ops guys, 1700 guys to maintain it, and 4000 support guys. You see, as the total number of actual people grows, you need people to support them. Except those 4000 guys don't care that their efforts trickle down to those 100 aircraft. All they care is that there are 6000 assholes that they have to deal with. Well, now those support guys you added to support the new guys need support also. So it just piles higher and higher until support exists primarily to take care of support guys, and ops just kinda gets support somewhere along the way, which was the whole damn whole point of support existing in the first place. The MSG is basically just herding human cattle. The problem now is that since you have all these thousands of support people supporting each other in some kind of support circlejerk, you have to start pandering to them. So finance panders to support, personnel panders to support, medical panders to support, and so on, because they're the actual majority of people that must be supported, not ops. So, ops and mx guys turn into elitist support-hating assholes because they bear the responsibility of making sure the actual mission (the whole damn point of any of us putting a uniform on) is completed successfully, but only get the same support as every other jackass on base. Except every other jackass on base doesn't have to worry about the mission getting done. Except with mx, the majority are young enlisted guys who get shat on because they're enlisted, and think that's the way things are, and don't have the rank to get away with calling people on their BS. Ops is a different story, since it's (majority) a bunch of officers who are far less likely to take shit from people, and when they get shitty support, it's not because they're lower ranking, it's because the support is actually shitty. And that is why pilots are assholes. I'd rather be an asshole than a doormat, though. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Jango needed a friend on the board to back him/her up, so he/she thought it would be helpful to create another alias "redmammal," thinking that no one would figure it out. Because no one has ever done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jango Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 oooo officers get so mad when its raining and they have to wait 5 min for a ride... I think anyone would get upset if they had to wait in less than ideal wx.....esp when someone *should* be there to pick you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osulax05 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 pilots could be a little more nicer to those around them, at least... They're coming out of the woodwork now... Do you have anything meaningful to contribute redmammal or are you here because your buddy Jango told to come mess with the pilots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitty Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hueypilot812 Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 And your Wing/CC...it's his damn base right? Your attempt at goading me failed. Nice lure though, cute back back story and everything. Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse? 1. Your original logic was that as an officer, we should be supporting the uniform queep because we set the standard. Not going along with the uniform Nazi attitude means we're poor leaders. If anyone is going to "uphold standards", as you claim is so critically important, then who would be more important than the Wing/CC? You say he "owns the base", which means you seem to think that because he's an O-6 he can now do as he pleases. If that's the case, then I'm a FGO and I can do as I please. Why should all other officers O-5 and below allow, tolerate and encourage uniform Nazism, but O-6 and above can wear their uniform however they want? I'm not trying to get into a logic contest with you. I think uniform queep is minor potatoes, and anyone focusing on it too much has their priorities ed up...which is my point...that O-6 I mentioned has his priorities squarely on getting the mission done and taking care of his people, not with minor uniform infractions. At the end of the day, if a guy has his flight suit sleeves rolled up and the mission got done and people got taken care of, does it really matter? 2. I love it when people in the AIR Force try to make the connection that pilots are a "minority" and question why are operators in charge. It has ZERO to do with how many of us there are. It has everything to do with what our branch's primary mission is. We are the AIR component of our nation's military. Sure, we do things like space and cyber warfare, but those two missions aren't the defining reason why we exist as a separate service. Any other branch could absorb cyber warfare or even space and call it their own. For convenience those misisons were given to the Air Force. But the reason why our AIR Force exists as a stand-alone branch is because we operate our nation's strategic bombing capability, tactical interdiction capability, strategic airlift capability, the vast majority of our aerial refueling capability, nearly all the tactical airlift capability, and a large chunk of the airborne ISR capability. Take close note to the titles of those various sub-missions...there's a lot of AIR in all of them. Meaning they require OPS to execute, and MX to generate. So yeah, despite being only a percentage of our total USAF strength, the bag-wearers and the wrench turners are the heart and soul of the AIR Force. So when you ask "why are pilots (or ops, really) in charge of the Air Force", you just asked a question that underlines all the concerns we have about the focus of our USAF. I'd like to give you a different perspective. I wasn't always a pilot and officer in the Air Force. At one point, I was an enlisted engineer in the Army. Not flight engineer, but construction engineer. I enlisted as an E-1 in 1992, and for four years I drove construction equipment. I then went on to become a Warrant Officer in the Army and flew Hueys (hence my screen name). Never in my 8 years in the Army did I see an enlisted Army soldier stop an officer and question their uniform, much less even be rude about it or question their integrity (as has happened to myself and many others over the years in the USAF). I might have mentioned to my platoon leader (a LT) that he left his hat behind in the office, but it would have only been a quick courtesy...it NEVER came out as a directive or even as a "correction". Additionally, despite being an engineer and also an aviator, I NEVER lost sight of the fact that the core of our Army were the combat arms career fields...the infantry, artillery and armor units. All we did was support them in one way or another. I never chafed at the idea that infantry and armor officers ran the Army...hell, that's what we did...that was our mission! To have a bunch of engineers or even aviators running the Army would have seemed idiotic. Now I'm not going to say the Army was perfect, they have their own set of issues and cultural problems. But they did NOT suffer from an identity crisis over "what do we do as a service", and all the soldiers knew the difference between an M1 MBT and an M2 BFV. We were all trained in basic infantry tactics, even if the last time we ever did any of that was in Basic Training. Fast forward and I'm in the USAF now. I've been yelled at when a First Shirt barged into my dorm at a deployed location and commanded me to sweep my hallway (along with all the other Captains and Majors). I've had a LT yell at me for not saluting him (I was in PT gear)...granted he was taken aback when I told him that Captains don't salute LTs, but see where all this queep Nazism stuff leads? He was indoctrinated into that culture, where ROTC-style queep IS your job. I've had a MSgt Pro-super yell at me to "get those shades of your head", despite the fact that I had oak leaves on my shoulder. I've had cops hold me and my toddler-aged kids at gunpoint despite me wearing a flight suit and line badge (and yes, I had permission to have them on the flight line). I could end there and say it was all about inconvenience and feeling slighted because of my rank. But I'll go a step farther and tell you that despite all this heavy attention on shirt tucking, color of shoes and socks, having sunglasses on your head, etc etc, I've had tons of examples where I was unable to get the mission done because people simply didn't want to try, or they gave me one of 69 excuses why it couldn't get done. Like the time I returned to pick up Army troops trying to catch their rotator home only to be denied landing because our PPR had "expired"...never mind the fact that it was our third trip up there that day (same call sign, etc...but our last arrival into their airfield was a few minutes beyond the Zulu day and they wouldn't let us land). Troops missed their flight home because of that idiotic call. Guys that had spent 18 months away from family had to wait longer because someone in base ops at Base X decided that, despite knowing it was the same ing C-130 that had been in there twice already, the "PPR expired"...as if we're no longer part of the good guys now. I've been told after landing with min fuel at a deployed location (got to min fuel because the airspace closed and we were forced to hold for nearly an hour) that we couldn't get fuel because USAF aircraft aren't allowed to get gas (it was a USMC field). That came straight from the USAF-ran ATOC. I pleaded saying we only needed about 4,000 lbs to make it to our destination without running out, and they said "you have to leave with what you got", except what we had wasn't enough. I had to spend hours calling people at AMD, who then went AROUND our own USAF guys and called the Marines directly, who then provided us with 4,000 lbs of gas. According to the Marines..."we have no problem providing fuel in emergency situations...we just don't want to be used routinely". So it was our own USAF shoes that wanted to send a Herk back out without enough gas to make it home. Nice. Or how about the time I was advising the Iraqis at the IqAF base next door, and on our way to work one day, we discovered the ECP/Gate we used to get to work was now closed. The only other way to the IqAF base was to drive the loooong way around...all the way to the North end of Sather, then back south past Camp Stryker. We queried the Sather folks, and they said they wanted to close it off because they were having too many problems with "ramp incursions" and it posed a security risk. We later found out that ALL of the "ramp incursions" were being committed by their very own Security Forces troops driving onto the ramp and parallel taxiway without clearance and without FOD checks...thanks for that, so you decide to screw all the CAFTT guys. Got it. Not a single example of any security being at risk, other than our very own "security" folks breaking their own damn rules. I can go on and on and on with stories were shoes impeded the mission, and gave us excuses like "that's not my job" or "we aren't allowed to do that" despite the fact that not doing it would result in mission failure. I tell ya, the USAF is really big on "The Process", and "The Mission" is secondary. If you tried to get the mission done and followed the process, and the process didn't allow you to complete the mission, well, that sucks but it's ok. But if you got the mission done but didn't use the process, God help you. Anyways, this rant is over, I've got other things to do tonight. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jango Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Huey, Good rant, and understood on this end. I think the main root of all these issues is class hostility and the idea of "are nots". But that is not what drew me out, the damn near racist tone of some of the comments about 'shoe clerks' is what compelled me to speak out. At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team. 2 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jollygreen Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Huey, Good rant, and understood on this end. I think the main root of all these issues is class hostility and the idea of "are nots". But that is not what drew me out, the damn near racist tone of some of the comments about 'shoe clerks' is what compelled me to speak out. At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team. Did he actually just play the "racist" card? Got to chuckle at that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitty Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 At the end of the day if people learn some manners, customs and courtesies and just realized we are all on the same team... then...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Fundamentally, you and I see the world from different perspectives. I spent 11 years in the Marines before I transferred to the Air Force. Therefore, during my formative years, I was taught (and believed) that everything I did was for the sole purpose of making the grunts successful. I still believe that. Today, whether I am talking with a JTAC in Afghanistan or cruising over strategic country X, I can still see why my efforts ultimately will make the grunts more successful. They don't have to be physically there to enjoy the benefits my job provides. I understand why Pawnman considers my thoughts a stretch, but at the same time, I think he is myopic. Fair enough. Just realize that we've had several successful operations where there were no troops on the ground. You may say even this is supporting the ground troops by not requiring them to deploy to the fight. Keep in mind one of the reasons we became a separate service was the doctrine of strategic bombing, far forward of the front lines. If we're just going to be a support service for the guys on the ground, we may as well get rolled back into the Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jango Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter. Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff. Bought a late take off? How do you figure? If we are picking up from the ramp.....that means those guys are mission complete and are done flying. Pay attention to context. And the ramp looks like it is still closed..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsokimapilot Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 And that is why pilots are assholes. I'd rather be an asshole than a doormat, though. There are three types of people in the world: d1cks, pu$$ies and assholes... I prefer to be thought of as a d1ck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crew Report Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Bought a late take off? How do you figure? If we are picking up from the ramp.....that means those guys are mission complete and are done flying. Pay attention to context. And the ramp looks like it is still closed..... Uh, because flyers also wait on trans to take them to the jet as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redmammal Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 Jango needed a friend on the board to back him/her up, so he/she thought it would be helpful to create another alias "redmammal," thinking that no one would figure it out. Because no one has ever done that. child of scorn, i am not an alias to Jango...i would have to have different plumbing for one. plus, its not fair for flyers to become irate when they arent picked up just as their jet has landed...phone calls have to be made, and the last ones to be called is the bus. dont get mad at us, get mad at the ones who dont dial the numbers fast enough. Enlisted flyers (me) get made too. But then I realize that I have a much cooler job and make more money than the guy driving the bus so it doesn't matter. Cool, the LRS just bought a late takeoff. sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets. we dont expect a handshake or a pat on the head, but a "thanks for the ride" is alot better than, "we called 10 minutes ago". blame base ops or command post, not the people who get out there within 5 minutes of getting the call to pick you up. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hueypilot812 Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets. we dont expect a handshake or a pat on the head, but a "thanks for the ride" is alot better than, "we called 10 minutes ago". blame base ops or command post, not the people who get out there within 5 minutes of getting the call to pick you up. I used to make the call for trans when we'd make our 30 minute out call. Problem is, we'd still be waiting 20 minutes after we shut down. That's almost an hour from initial notification. There were times CP didn't make the call, but often we'd call CP back on the radios after we waited for a while and they'd repeat they had indeed made the call. I also used to call trans directly to get a ride to the aircraft...myself. I'd call and say "hey, we'll be waiting out front in 15 minutes". It would take an additional 15-20 minutes before a bus arrived, nearly 30-40 minutes after I called trans directly. I was RONing at a base on the west coast several years ago, when I flew C-21s. We needed to drop by billeting and check out, pick up lunch (no time to get it later), and then head to base ops to flight plan and preflight the jet prior to a DV arriving. We called trans and said we'd be outside our VOQ building. We waited and waited, no trans. After 20-30 minutes, we called them back. Dispatch said the driver showed up but no one was there. I asked if they stopped by our building (and gave them our bldg #)...he confirmed that was the place the driver went to, and he reported that the aircrew was a no show. Funny...we had been out there for half an hour and saw no trans. I ask the dispatcher to please send the driver back out. We wait another 30 minutes. Now our leisurely timeline of turning in keys and grabbing a bite to eat before sitting in an airplane for 14 hours was going to shit....now we were worried we might not even have time to get the jet ready. I call back again. Dispatcher says the driver is picking up other people, and he'll get to us when he can. I explain that we're flying the 2-star who's office exists on their base, and if we're late taking off, we're blaming it on trans. Bus shows up in 5 minutes. Driver says he can get us straight over to base ops...I explain "no, you're taking us to billeting, then we're getting lunch...then you can take us to base ops". He seemed pissed, but I'll be damn if this guy was going to lie and say we weren't waiting outside, then ignore our second call, and cost us what's probably the only meal we'll have until we get home. If we're late, he can explain that to the general's staff. We got our keys turned in, got our Subway, and were able to preflight and flight plan on time...they got lucky. Soooo...I do walk. Nearly every time. The only reason why I say "nearly" is because some of the time (like today), the mx guys that are busting their ass recovering our airplane will offer us a ride. sad you cant do your job without the people with the "uncool" jobs. if it was up to me, all ya'll would walk your @$$es to your jets. I wanted to add this...this line pisses me off. Whether you think your job is "cool" or "uncool" is moot. I can damn sure do my job without trans. In fact, I'd rather avoid the entirety of our Air Force "support" system altogether. Case in point: When I flew C-21s, we often flew to civilian airfields. One place we went to often was the Tampa/MacDill area. When given the choice, I ALWAYS chose to fly into TPA instead of MCF. Why? Because I could land the jet, shut down and close up the airplane, have my fuel there, have a rental car and room reservations within 30 minutes or less of rolling onto the civilian airport ramp. If I flew into MacDill, it took hours having to deal with all the hoops and games of dealing with the support functions. I'm NOT kidding you either. So, I could fly into Tampa International at 5pm and be eating dinner by 6pm. Or I could land at the same time at MacDill AFB and finally be eating dinner by 8-9pm...and I'd get better service too. I want to ad a disclaimer: I've met some really great support troops (finance, trans, what have you) that did a great job, took pride in their work, and did their best to get a tired and exhausted crew on their way, help a guy get his pay fixed, or assisted someone in getting their records straight. But I've found that's not the norm. Edited October 15, 2010 by Hueypilot812 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hueypilot812 Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) One last story: When I was flying C-130Es at the schoolhouse, we had to do an ERO for student training. Our ERO block was on the back end of our line, so it made sense to just do it in parking prior to shutting down. We had even gotten an overfly, so when we taxied to park, we were the only Herk with engines still running. When the Nav made the 30 minute out call, he had requested ATOC support for the ERO. We pulled into parking and the loads stated there was no K-loader in sight, so we called CP again and asked if ATOC was on the way. They said they made the initial call but would check. A few minutes later, CP called back and stated that ATOC was "MOG'd out". My reply was "What's their MOG? Zero?" CP stated "sorry sir, they said they are swamped and too busy to support". Amazing. We're the only airplane with engines running...everyone else had shut down and gone home for the night, and we were the only aircraft in our ERO block to be scheduled with ATOC for an ERO...yet they were "MOG'd out". Interesting. Edited October 15, 2010 by Hueypilot812 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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