Gun Talk

[BigFreddie]

Of all the options for "scary black", what is the caliber that is most expensive/cheapest? I searched, and spent a couple hours reading all 15 pages of this, but couldn't find that specific answer. There are a couple of hints to it, but no definitive answer.

5.45x39mm - the Russian answer to the 5.56x45mm. A wicked looking little round too. It can be had for about $120/1080 in a sealed spam can. the only downside is that it is corrosive. Sounds bad but I clean my guns with boiling water then lube them as normal. Apparently the water takes the corrosive salts away and being as hot as it is the water basically evaporates very quickly. The corrosive salts come from the primer and is fairly common in Russian ammo so that it will last forever in storage. In the AK74 with its compensator/flash enhancer it feels like you're shooting a .22!

7.62x39mm - Great round with a lot of history. As M2 mentioned it is currently on sale running $150/1000. The normal price is right around $180 to $200/1000. I can vaguely remember the day when it was $75/1000 - those were the days! Most of this is commercial stuff from the former eastern block so it isn't typically corrosive. There is some Yugoslavian stuff out there for sale that is corrosive and the bullet is supposedly one of the best for self defense.

9mm - you can get ARs in this round for fairly cheap money. About the best deal out there is for Winchester white box at Walmart. Basically $20/100 or $200/1000. Use to be $13/100! This is really for plinking and having a cheap shooting session.

.223/5.56mm - it is cool to use .223 in a gun chambered for 5.56. It is potentially dangerous to use 5.56 in a .223 chambered gun. The advantage of the 5.56 loads over .223 is higher velocities and therefore you're running the gun at higher pressures. The reason to lean towards 5.56 loads is that a lot of the wounding mechanism of the 5.56 is derived from fragmentation due to velocity. Combine a shorter barreled rifle shooting .223 pressure loads and the relative effective range of the system drops to about 100 yards. For us using the gun in self defense if you're shooting someone further away than your backyard, you're probably going to be in a lot of trouble... You can get Wolf steel cased ammo of dubious quality that may or may not run your gun and spit tons of crap into the receiver will run you about $220/1000. the better brassed cased stuff is running about $350/1000.

7.62x51mm or .308 Winchester - really great round. But the most expensive stuff for black rifles. I remember buying South African battle packs of 140 rounds a year and half ago for $25/140 now goes for $60+/140. Big reason is the fact that the UN wants countries to destroy their old stockpiles of ammo to "save the world" from guns and arms trafficking. Also, fewer and fewer countries have 7.62x51mm as their main battle rifle which means there is no source for surplus, i.e. cheap but quality ammo. Some other current ammo out there is Lithuanian at $350/1000.

When buying ammo online check this site: www.gun-deals.com/ammo.php

If you want to see what ammo to buy for self defense check this: www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

And M2 - you will find that there is much better ammo out there now than the Hydra-Shoks.

BF

[M2]

And M2 - you will find that there is much better ammo out there now than the Hydra-Shoks.

BF

BF

Yep, that's true; but HydraShoks are still a damn decent SD/HD round! The 230 grain has a proven track record in the .45, and where there may be some better rounds out there, I stick with what I know works in my pistols!

I also have some Aguila 117gr "High Power" Fragmenting Hollow Points that I want to try out; but I wouldn't trust them for SD/HD as I think they are more a novelty round and not as reliable as other HPs. Plus, Centurian Ordnance, the company that imports them into the States, is literally less than a mile away from my house.

That said, I think the next SD/HD rounds I am going to try are the Speer Gold Dots. Have heard good things about them, and would like to see how they do. If you have any other suggestions, I am always open to hear them.

Cheers! M2

[Guest r6pilot]

Don't know if anyone knows much about the Argie manufacturer Bersa. I didn't/still don't. However, I bought their 'Thunder 45' as a CCW (also have a VA CCW which is, as noted, useless in MD, but then so is much of that state's legislature, but I digress....).

I've put probably 200 rounds out with no problems. I bought the gun as a reward for selling a story and to save my 1911 handed down from my Dad should I be in non-friendly state and get 'caught' carrying in the car. I'd rather lose this one than my heirloom.

The Bersa is a 7+1 and easily carried. It's thick which helps as I have big hands, but might be too much for some.

Anyone knowledgable on the company itself?

http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/detail_bersa45.php

I bought a Bersa Thunder 380 a few years ago as my first firearm when I joined a local range. I just wanted something inexpensive with even more inexpensive ammo.

This one fit the bill and was pretty damn reliable. I put about 500 rounds through it with a couple hiccups. I partly chalked it up to my inexperience with gun ownership/mx.

http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/detail_bersa380.php

[BigFreddie]

BF

Yep, that's true; but HydraShoks are still a damn decent SD/HD round! The 230 grain has a proven track record in the .45, and where there may be some better rounds out there, I stick with what I know works in my pistols!

I also have some Aguila 117gr "High Power" Fragmenting Hollow Points that I want to try out; but I wouldn't trust them for SD/HD as I think they are more a novelty round and not as reliable as other HPs. Plus, Centurian Ordnance, the company that imports them into the States, is literally less than a mile away from my house.

That said, I think the next SD/HD rounds I am going to try are the Speer Gold Dots. Have heard good things about them, and would like to see how they do. If you have any other suggestions, I am always open to hear them.

Cheers! M2

Here's a list in common calibers:

9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:

Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP

Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)

Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)

Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)

Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)

Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)

Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)

Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)

Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)

Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

From Dr. Gary Roberts - his job is to test ammo and body armor and the like. Found in this thread: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 That thread will explain everything you need to know plus has some great pictures of ammo after being shot through gelatin and clothes and windshields... Pretty neat job really!

ETA:

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

BF

Edited October 23, 2008 by BigFreddie

[isshinwhat]

I've been looking/reading for months now on POF, LWRC, and LMT piston ARs and had just about settled on the LMT, but for some reason never gave much thought to the SIGs until recently. From everything I've read, the 556 sounds like a great rifle. Anyone here own/shot/have experience with one?

As for .40 S&W, if anyone needs trash range ammo, the Wal-Marts in Pensacola were selling Blazer Brass reloadable fmj boxes of 50 for $7.57 last I checked. If anyone's near Hurlburt or Eglin and you're headed that way, it's not a bad deal. It's been a few months so I would call first, but my 229 will eat it all day long and I've never had trouble with it while plinking.

Edited October 23, 2008 by isshinwhat

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

That said, I think the next SD/HD rounds I am going to try are the Speer Gold Dots. Have heard good things about them, and would like to see how they do. If you have any other suggestions, I am always open to hear them.

Cheers! M2

I have used Gold Dots and they are good rounds, my standard carry round is the Winchester Ranger SXT as said already it is an improved version of the older black talons but has the same petal setup.

You might look into them.

[Guest ATC]

I have several Mitch Rosen holsters that I love - I wouldn't buy from anyone else for personal carry.

http://www.mitchrosen.com/

I own both Glock and HK, among others. My favorite gun to shoot is my fullsize HK USP .45 - and I can carry it concealed if I wear a sweatshirt or jacket. My Glock 30 is more concealable.

[Guest crotter]

Anyone else here a fan of the Glock 20? (10mm)

[MD]

Anyone else here a fan of the Glock 20? (10mm)

Good pistol. It's unfortunate that 10mm never caught on like was intended. I personally like the round.

[Guest smokinrobo]

Yeah, as Mike pointed out, your VA permit is not recognized by MD, so you can't carry. Here is a map of the states that recognize your permit:

Maryland isn't the most gun-friendly state, and note that WV, MI and FL don't recognize your non-resident permit either.

I have the XD45ACP, as I love the .45 caliber, I consider it the consummate American round and it is nice to be able to use the same ammo with my 1911. Plus, with 13+1 capacity, it's sufficient for most SHTF situations. I don't always carry an extra magazine, as after 14 rounds if the situation hasn't ended I will be working towards my exit ("Gimme three steps, give me three steps towards the door"). It is idiotic to stand your ground and fight, you need to be off the 'x' and on the move! About the only time you do that is when you are defending your home, at which the XD is only to give me something to shoot until I can get to the bigger toys. As the old axiom goes, you can never have enough firepower or ammo!

The XD does have the trigger safety, as well as the 1911-style grip safety. As discussed earlier, they are now available with a thumb safety but I think that is a little too much. I don't have the requirements that the military and law enforcement agencies have for a thumb safety, I want a weapon I can grab and fire.

But the bottom line is you should get the gun you fire well. Caliber is not nearly as important as shot placement, and a well-placed 9mm will be better than a badly-placed .45 shot. But there was an FBI study titled 'Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness' that concluded: "Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." It is a great report, you can easily find the full report by Googling the name.

There may not be a huge difference in caliber sizes, as Hacker's chart shows; but even that little deviation between calibers can make the difference in between striking a vital organ and not. Plus, you greatly increase your chances by using JHPs, which I will only use in my carry weapon.

Hope that helps!

Cheers! M2

Thanks for that map. I though this thread was dead. I recently just brought a M-4 Carbine by BushMaster

[M2]

Thanks for that map. I though this thread was dead. I recently just brought a M-4 Carbine by BushMaster

Actually, it was. Another one titled 'Pistol and Rifle Advice' took off, so I just merged the old 'Handguns used by USAF/ Military pilots' into it.

Cheers! M2

[BigFreddie]

Good pistol. It's unfortunate that 10mm never caught on like was intended. I personally like the round.

But the .40 Short and Weak is still out there! The 10mm Glock was the second pistol I owned - the first being a .22LR! The 10mm is a great round hampered but its "greatness". The FBI adopted it after a shoot out in Miami where their agents got hits on guys with their .38s but didn't incapacitate them. The bad guys, in turn, killed the FBI agents. So the FBI over reacted and adopted the 10mm for a couple years. They quickly found out that females and the metrosexual male agents couldn't handle the recoil. The answer was to download the rounds and therefore the extra length of the case was not needed - voila .40 Smith & Wesson.

That being said, I really love the 10mm Auto. The Glock packs a ton of power into a handgun. Downsides to it are cost and availability of ammo. It is expensive and hard to find - and when you find it the ammo is essentially loaded to upper level .40 Smith & Wesson rounds. There are a couple companies out there (Buffalo Bore and CorBon) that are loading full fledged 10mm Auto.

If you don't have a 10mm Glock yet I would suggest shooting one first. I would also look around for ammo and see what it costs - it might surprise you. It would be much cheaper and easier to shoot .40S&W or even .45 ACP than 10mm. But, then again, you wouldn't have the pure horsepower a 10mm affords you!

BF

[Bergman]

If you don't have a 10mm Glock yet I would suggest shooting one first. I would also look around for ammo and see what it costs - it might surprise you. It would be much cheaper and easier to shoot .40S&W or even .45 ACP than 10mm. But, then again, you wouldn't have the pure horsepower a 10mm affords you!

Sounds like you're making a good case for .45 ACP!

I've not been following this thread too closely; hope this link isn't a repeat. Helped convince me that .45 ACP is the way to go for a semi-auto CCW. For a revolver, .357 MAG all the way IMHO.

Handgun Power Chart

Also, thanks for all the great info so far fellas...this has turned out to be quite an informative thread, for me at least.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Bergman

[M2]

Berg

If it's good enough to win WWII, it's good enough for self-defense!

I have a .357 Magnum revolver, a 1954 pre-Python Colt that was my Dad's. It is a great gun to shoot, but I would never carry a revolver for self-defense, and .357 semi-autos are hard to find (Springfield ceased production of the XD357 a while back).

I was already a .45 fan, but this FBI report is what convinced me to stick with .45 JHPs instead of cheaper 9mm. Sure, shot placement is the most important factor; but as the aforementioned report says, all things being equal the second most important factor is caliber size. In other words, bigger is better. Smaller, faster rounds like the 9mm not only make a narrower path through the target, they have less of a chance of hitting a vital organ. Larger, slower rounds like the .45 have a better chance even though the bullet size isn't substantially larger than a 9mm (see the comparison chart earlier in this thread). But the fact that the larger round will tumble and expand (if a JHP), the larger caliber greatly increases the potential for striking a vital organ. Considering the fact that my XD carries 13+1 rounds of .45 JHP, that is more than sufficient for most situations.

Yes, .45 ammo is more expensive than 9mm; but in my opinion (and the FBI's), it is the most effective round. Plus, the best semi-auto out there, John Moses Browning's M1911, was designed around it. The 10mm, like a .44 Magnum, is a powerful round but not a practical one; the .45ACP is about the largest usable round for concealed carry and self-defense in a pistol. It is why the M1911A1 is still being used by some US units who actually need an effective firearm...and I am not talking about the sky cops!

Anything larger than that, and it's time to grab the shotgun!

Cheers! M2

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

I have a .357 Magnum revolver, a 1954 pre-Python Colt that was my Dad's. It is a great gun to shoot, but I would never carry a revolver for self-defense

Cheers! M2

Care to expound on that topic? I have a Smith 19 2 1/2 that I love is slim makes a great carry for a large gun, up close I don't think there are many rounds better than a .357 super vel, not many that I would want to have to stand up against anyway.

Like you I like the .45 and it is usually what I carry but for the super up close and personal times a wheel gun is comforting to me.

[M2]

Ace

Just personal preference. For one, I consider my .357 Colt is a family heirloom, something I will pass on to my sons one day. These days it is kept in a display case. Secondly, I don't doubt is a great firearm, I have shot it on numerous occassions and love it (the .357 round kicks ass!); but the capacity of my XD (13+1) over the six it holds is another selling point. Lastly, the XD is significantly slimmer and easy to draw from an IWB holster. I would prefer to carry the revolver in an external holster on my hip, which isn't allowed in Texas as it isn't an open carry state.

Again, this is just my logic behind it, I am not saying that a revolver is bad carry weapon or unreliable, I just find a semi-auto to be a better solution for concealed carry. And I also have a small .38 revolver that I do sometimes carry under certain circumstances, like when I am going someplace where I would have to leave it in the car. It was my Dad's old "throw away" gun and whereas I would hate to lose it if it were stolen or something, it would pain me less than if I lost my XD, the .357 or one of my M1911s...

Cheers! M2

[BigFreddie]

Sounds like you're making a good case for .45 ACP!

I've not been following this thread too closely; hope this link isn't a repeat. Helped convince me that .45 ACP is the way to go for a semi-auto CCW. For a revolver, .357 MAG all the way IMHO.

Handgun Power Chart

Also, thanks for all the great info so far fellas...this has turned out to be quite an informative thread, for me at least.

Not exactly my intent but that is really what happened! I really think that today the .45ACP would be a better CCW piece because there are new and improved pistols out there. If you haven't shot an HK45C don't unless you have about $900 to buy one with! The 10mm is really a dying round as much as I hate to say it. The major ammo manufacturers aren't loading their newest self-defense bullets in ammo even though the 10mm and .40 SW use the exact same bullet. Top that off with the fact that there are only a handful of guns currently being manufactured that shoot the 10mm. The smart man now would go the .45ACP route. I like my 10mm as a hunting back-up gun - my cousin has actually taken mule deer with his in Wyoming so it will take down an animal.

As to the 9mm vs .45 debate. Always remember the .45 will never get smaller and the 9mm will sometimes not get any bigger! I like the 9mm because the newer self defense rounds make it much closer in effectiveness to the .45 than ever. But, that's my opinion and M2 stated his opinion and I have only recently moved away from that myself. If I was face with only using hardball ammo I would definitely prefer the .45ACP.

Here's some more fuel for the fire:

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

Notes:

-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset

-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

The above quoted material is from Dr. Gary Roberts - one of the top experts in this field... Original post located here - http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

BF

[Guest AceTomatoCompany]

Ace

Just personal preference. For one, I consider my .357 Colt is a family heirloom, something I will pass on to my sons one day. These days it is kept in a display case. Secondly, I don't doubt is a great firearm, I have shot it on numerous occassions and love it (the .357 round kicks ass!); but the capacity of my XD (13+1) over the six it holds is another selling point. Lastly, the XD is significantly slimmer and easy to draw from an IWB holster. I would prefer to carry the revolver in an external holster on my hip, which isn't allowed in Texas as it isn't an open carry state.

Again, this is just my logic behind it, I am not saying that a revolver is bad carry weapon or unreliable, I just find a semi-auto to be a better solution for concealed carry. And I also have a small .38 revolver that I do sometimes carry under certain circumstances, like when I am going someplace where I would have to leave it in the car. It was my Dad's old "throw away" gun and whereas I would hate to lose it if it were stolen or something, it would pain me less than if I lost my XD, the .357 or one of my M1911s...

Cheers! M2occasions

I could agree with your logic, I live in a primarly in an pro-gun but anti-gun court city/state so even when you are in the right during a CCW situation you have to wonder whether the courts are going to feel bad for the "poor victim" that you shot who was trying to mug you. I have had a cop here actually tell me that the person should be attacking you before you draw your weapon, excuse me what is the point if you are going to let someone get close enough to hit you.

I too have and like the XD45 primarilybut the majority of CCW situations I have always encountered or trained for are always less then 10 feet away in which case I like the round that has the best one shot chance of take down that leaves in my book the .357 and .45. I like the revolver for the same reason as a shotgun, the ability to cycle the cylinder for effect as in some cases it will make someone who is iffy on attacking you think twice and should they proceed you are still in the position to fire. ( I have actually had this happen to me) the ability to make someone pause for a moment while not making you any less defensive is a good thing in my opinion as once you pull there is no going back.

Extra rounds are good but if you are in a situation where you are using 14+ rounds or especially if you reload God help you with the courts up here proving you "feared for your life/safety"

[Guest KM]

Gun sales thriving in uncertain times

Economic woes, fears that Dems will enact new controls drive increase

By Fredrick Kunkle

The Washington Post

Americans have cut back on buying cars, furniture and clothes in a tough economy, but there's one consumer item that's still enjoying healthy sales: guns. Purchases of firearms and ammunition have risen 8 to 10 percent this year, according to state and federal data.

Several variables drive sales, but many dealers, buyers and experts attribute the increase in part to concerns about the economy and fears that if Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois wins the presidency, he will join with fellow Democrats in Congress to enact new gun controls. Obama has said that he believes in an individual right to bear arms but that he also supports "common-sense safety measures."

"Even though [Obama] has a lot going for him, he's not very pro-gun," said Paul Pluff, a spokesman for Massachusetts-based Smith & Wesson, which has reported higher sales. Gun enthusiasts are "going to go out and get [firearms] while they still can."

Gun purchases have also been climbing because of the worsening economy, which fuels fears of crime and civil disorder, industry sources and specialists said.

"Generally, we know that hard economic times always result in firearm sales," said James M. Purtilo of Silver Spring, who publishes the Tripwire Newsletter.

Gary Kleck, a researcher at Florida State University's College of Criminology and Criminal Justice whose work was cited in the District's recent Supreme Court gun-control case, said that although there are no scientific studies linking gun sales and economic conditions, people often buy firearms during periods of uncertainty. People often buy weapons because of concerns about personal safety or government actions to limit access to firearms, causing spikes in sales, Kleck said.

Industry experts and law enforcement officials point to several examples over the years. In 1994, there was a rush to buy guns when President Bill Clinton pushed for a ban on military-style semiautomatic rifles. Handgun sales jumped last year after the massacre at Virginia Tech as some worried about personal protection and others feared sweeping restrictions on handguns, pushing applications for concealed gun permits in Virginia alone up 60 percent. People also rushed to buy guns after the 1992 riots in Los Angeles and the breakdown of order in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.

Bob Leyshion, who visited a gun shop in Manassas recently, said the economic crisis and Obama's lead in the polls were on his mind.

"People are preparing for catastrophe right now," said Leyshion, 55, of Nokesville. "It's insurance. With the stock market crash and people out of work, and the illegal aliens in this area, the probability of civil disorder is very high."

More than three dozen interviews with gun dealers and buyers in Virginia and Maryland and with experts nationwide indicated that the increase in gun sales appears to be driven predominantly by concerns about the presidential election and the economy.

Gun buyers were more likely to say they were responding to the political situation than to the economy, and all but three people said they feared that Obama would restrict gun rights. Two who indicated that they would support Obama anyway said their concerns about the economy and health care outweighed those about gun rights.

Law enforcement and industry data and anecdotal reports show that guns are selling well this year. In 2008, there were 8.4 million background checks from Jan. 1 to Sept. 28, compared with 7.7 million in the same period last year, a 9 percent increase, according to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System.

The increase is also notable because it follows a heavy year for gun purchases, which industry officials and experts link to the Virginia Tech shootings in April 2007 and a burgeoning housing market crisis. NICS checks show a 20 percent increase in April 2007, compared with the previous year.

On a recent weekend this month, a crowd of lookers and buyers milled around in the Virginia Arms Co. in Manassas. Some were shopping for large-capacity magazines, or clips, that attach to firearms and hold additional rounds of ammo. Those were banned during the Clinton administration and became legal again when the ban expired.

"What I hear a lot is fear that Barack will win the election and tax everything to the point that you can't afford anything," said salesman Eugene Proko, 51.

[Guest JorryFright21]

Hehe, I guess I am a lemming because fears that gun rights would be threatened and drive prices through the roof are the reason I bought mine now. I was always going to buy it, but I bought it while still over here in Okinawa because I wanted to get it before the election.

[BigFreddie]

Hehe, I guess I am a lemming because fears that gun rights would be threatened and drive prices through the roof are the reason I bought mine now. I was always going to buy it, but I bought it while still over here in Okinawa because I wanted to get it before the election.

It was just another excuse for me. I'll probably pick up an extra 10 mags for my AR - great place selling them for $10 each...

BF

[Guest Fogo]

Small thread hijack, but on the firearms topic.

A couple times out here at the Deid I've talked to my wife about would she learn to use a pistol and/or revolver for her own/home defense. She has never been around guns, but is not against them by any means either. We were just married this summer, and it came up in conversation one night.

Shes agreed that she would like to go to the range and give it a try when I return home in a few days. My question: Do any of you guys have experience with taking a first time shooter to the range? Especially your spouse? She is a confident women and handles herself well, isn't weak or anything; but everyone reacts differently to firing for the first time.

Thanks for the help.

[dc58]

I'm in your same situation and I think I've come up with the best solution that will work for my wife and I. A local range has a female only class and a female instructor. I am hoping that will make her feel more comfortable seeing other women handling weapons and learning from a woman. It will alleviate me passing any of my bad habits on to her and will hopefully allow her to learn without getting frustrated at me or vice versa which could ruin her willingness to learn. If you do it yourself though start off with a .22 and move up from there. The most important thing is getting her comfortable with handling guns.

[M2]

Fogo

I've taken numerous first-time shooters to the range, from my wife to my then-9-yr-old son to a Canadian teenager. The first thing to stress is safety. Go over the rules of the range and gun safety several times before even heading out. An accident will put someone off faster than anything.

Secondly, I go over each weapon being shot; from a description of how it works, properly handling and how much kick to expect. Then, for my semi-autos, I chamber one round and drop the magazine. I then stand behind the shooter and make sure they keep the weapon pointed downrange. Then I let them shoot. This is the scariest part of me as I am always afraid they'll drop the gun! After they've fired a shot, ask them how they like it. Most likely they'll be scared and excited at the same time, both of which are a good thing as the fear will ensure they respect the lethality of the weapon and the excitement means they would like to try it again. I even make a point to let them shoot all the guns I have, to include the .357 Magnum if I've got it. I warn them it will kick; but I think it is better they experience all the guns than only the ones they think won't kick.

However, I try to find out which on they like most and let them shoot it more. I load a couple of rounds in a magazine and show they how to load it and take the safety off. Also ensure they know how to check to make sure the weapon is clear afterward, and to keep it pointed downrange at all times. After some more experience, I will load up a complete magazine and let them fire on their own; but you will know when they are ready for that.

My wife loved my M1911s, but she'd probably prefer the .38 revolver to carry. My son has shot everything I have minus the 12-gauge pistol-gripped shotgun. He's not big enough for its kick. But even the Canadian kid (the son of a buddy of mine), who was shaking most of the time he was shooting (he's never shot a handgun before, nor a rifle larger than a .22) had a great time!

Just take a little time to prep, and keep an eye out to make sure they are enjoying the experience. Don't push them beyond their desires, and I am sure all will work out fine. Shooting is a great pasttime, and many people are surprised they have a natural knack for it. And above all, make sure it is fun!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Sandlapper]

Small thread hijack, but on the firearms topic.

A couple times out here at the Deid I've talked to my wife about would she learn to use a pistol and/or revolver for her own/home defense. She has never been around guns, but is not against them by any means either. We were just married this summer, and it came up in conversation one night.

Shes agreed that she would like to go to the range and give it a try when I return home in a few days. My question: Do any of you guys have experience with taking a first time shooter to the range? Especially your spouse? She is a confident women and handles herself well, isn't weak or anything; but everyone reacts differently to firing for the first time.

Thanks for the help.

I can speak with some recent experience. Just bought an XD-9 subcompact a few weeks ago, and took my wife to the range a few days back. I'd recommend spending some time with the basics beforehand - how to load, unload, clear, & handle it before you step into the range. It will significantly increase their comfort level. Also - when you do start shooting, put LARGE target about 5-10 meters away at first. Almost anyone can get a decent group from that distance & it will boost their confidence initially. The rules that I harped on:

- ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded (until you physically verify otherwise for yourself)

- Don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill

- Your trigger finger is the only safety that matters...until you're ready to pull with it, keep it off the GD trigger.

She enjoyed herself & wants to go back. Your confidence & demeanor while teaching her will have a lasting impression on her views of owning a handgun, so put some thought into it.