ViperMan

Yep. There are dems licking their chops over this because it's a perfect excuse to govern from an extreme position (never let a crisis go to waste). Look for a themes of "we have to repair the damage done," "we have to help those who were destroyed by Trump," and "the republican party is a danger to democracy" to be in play over the next two years (minimum). I don't admire Biden's position. I think he is (by far) inheriting the most difficult set of circumstances of any president since Vietnam. He's got a chance, though, because I do think he is an inherently good person.

Awesome! I'm glad we're all in agreement that it wasn't an attempted coup. I had been hearing differently in the social media sphere, the news, and was starting hear the same bleed over into this forum. It's best when we keep the hyperbole to a minimum. I don't think you're thinking big enough. That is worrisome, to be sure, but what is worse is the continued divergence between the growing 'sectarian' realities that are continuing to find harbor in our country. That MAGA group yesterday is but one instance. The groups engaging in violence all summer long, were another. What I'm saying is that we're misidentifying the root causes and driving factors behind these events, but there is a way towards reconciliation. Honestly, the best thing we can do with Trump going forward, is to ignore him and let him fade into memory. Like others have identified on this forum, the Democratic party has a real opportunity to take an honest leadership role here. There has been real damage done to the Republican party (by the Republican party), but the Dem's only way forward is to make their bicycle look less broken (which they are not doing). What should they do, IMO? For starters, all discussion that frames yesterday as an attempted coup, has to stop. That goes for both Chuck Schumer (who is a piece of shit) and for Ben Sasse (who I admire greatly). All it does is polarize more people and allows them to reinforce their dug-in positions. In the same vein, likening yesterday to Pearl Harbor also has to end. Second, the Democrats need to step back and communicate to the American people a message that addresses the following: We (America) are obviously a divided nation. We (Democrats) won by the narrowest of margins. We (Democrats), unfortunately, have no "mandate" and we're not going to govern like we do. Any and all things we do in the next term will be from a position of true bi-partisanship. It's from this place that we'll reach out to Republicans to govern. Peace/truce. If I heard a speech (or saw governing) that covered those points, 1) I'd breathe a sign of relief because it would finally be a truthful, adult response, and 2) it would be the first time in the last four years that I would see any amount of reality come from the democratic side of the isle. But I'm not holding my breath for that. Reference all the coup talk, and the reference to a mandate from our friends at CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/georgia-election-wins-biden/index.html. We've got a mandate and we've got mounting expectations...awesome. I love being part of the 49.9% minority subject to the 50.1% majority. But yeah, mandate...keep your seat belts fastened.

I'm opening "what-a-bouts" for this post. Does no one remember four short years ago when there was a concerted effort to get faithless electors to "subvert democracy" and "vote their conscience"? WTH does everyone think would have happened four years ago had that effort succeeded? Surely it would have been a peaceful transition when faithless electors chose a different president. I'm sure that wouldn't have disenfranchised large swaths of our nation. No, it wasn't endorsed by the sitting President, but why am I not surprised? Why does this just seem to 'fit' in with the rest of the other BS that's been going on? And again, the 'coup' talk is disingenuous. Where is the force that is going to back-up any of this? Honestly it's disheartening to think that so many of my colleagues harbor an actual concern that this threatened our way of life, because it implies you think that the military at large would fall in line with blindly carrying out orders from Trump. Frankly, I trust everyone I work with way more than that. I feel like I'm the guy down range getting bitched at by chiefs for wearing the "CTFO" morale patch.

I agree 100%, and that's a topic worth engaging on. Personally, I think it's a tactical/operational/strategic failure of whatever government agency is responsible for protecting the Capitol. Where were the fire hoses? Non-lethal crowd control measures? Hundreds or thousands of National Guard troops. It's not like we didn't know this thing was coming. There was no good way to slowly escalate the use of force, so as soon as a breach happened they had to use lethal force. I had heard of the event even though I'm fairly disengaged so no doubt it was on everyone's radar. I'm also hugely concerned about China/Russia/Iran, but am also worried that even outside of external threat actors, we have our own internal struggles that remain.

If we're having a national dialogue about a coup - defined by our major sources of news and other national leaders (senators) calling it one - then yes, there needs to have been a legitimate threat to our government/way of life. In our case however, it represents an opportunity for interested parties to cast it in a suitable way for future maneuvering. There was no danger to our way of life displayed today. When it's put forth in such hyperbolic terms, it further erodes trust in our institutions. In the last few years I have seen frighteningly few mature responses from nearly anyone in government. That our Capitol saw action is disheartening and shameful, and no one said I'm not pissed. I'm as pissed as I was this summer. Why I may come off as ambivalent at this point, is that this is one additional piece of the puzzle that's been coming together for years. Yeah, I guess if I viewed it in isolation it might piss me off in a more acute manner. But today wasn't 9/11 and it wasn't December 7th. And while my attitude may be gross to you on this message board, it's not having a societal effect on our national consciousness and making further civil discourse even more difficult in the same way our national leaders and news media are.

Ehh. All this discussion of a coup attempt is gross overreaction, fear mongering, and ultimately, politicking. And yes, I do mean gross. Are people on this board seriously concerned that that small bunch represented an actual threat to the rule of this country? If so, how close did they come? If so, how close did you come to falling into lock step with your new rulers wearing MAGA hats and overalls? What New Yorker was going to wake up to the Times and just go "hmm, ok, well I guess this is what we got." Any real coup has an authentic chance of co-opting large swaths of a previous government. Today was not that. Sorry, but it just wasn't. What it is, is an opportunity for political money-making. Wake me up on the 20th if he doesn't leave office and there are armed government employees refusing to depart the White House. Until then/that happens, this is just more ugly game-playing.

I agree we 'should' - but it's not a birthright to quote Fingers. And I don't think the damage is irreparable. They fixed Hiroshima for God's sake. I would say the idea of America symbolizes freedom around the world. We got rid of the idea about one person being the end-all be-all in 1776.

Like I said, it's but merely one instance of a great many failures we've seen over the last year. And apparently, we do do that here. Your statement is indicative of another inherent problem many of us have: we think we're somehow above all this - we're not. It's the same attitude of "it can't happen to me." See: Mayors and legislatures turning on their police departments. Edit to add: I said "QUALitatively" - not sure that matters to your point.

Notice: this is how our GOVERNMENT functions right now. It's been like this for years. Some of us (me) see this as part and parcel of the same underlying issue - not about whether or not someone is wearing red, blue, or orange glasses. The issue, IMO, is who gets to define what reality is (i.e. we're flirting with themes from 1984). Notice how everything is about perspective and framing - what something is, and what it is not. We are arguing about what is real. Don't forget, rioting (/peaceful protesting, depending on what frame you like to use) has been going on all summer long. Does it surprise you that there is finally a riot from the right? While it is shameful (perhaps a contender for the "most" shameful award) that it was apparently encouraged by Trump today, it is not qualitatively different than what has been going on all summer long from top to bottom, including mayors, governors, senators, congresspeople, business leaders, news organizations, social media, etc (please note, I am not justifying ANY bad behavior, from either side). You name the thing, it has an agenda, a frame, a technological bubble to place you in, or an angle to push. And if you're me, what you've seen over the last four years is a ridiculous and hysterical obsession with how F'd up Trump is. You would think we're on the cusp of total collapse because of him. Frankly, it's been very petty, and in my view, it has been done intentionally and with design, because everyone knows that Trump is a little bit cranky and unpredictable...pester dad enough and he might lash out, which might work to your advantage...yes, I am that cynical about American politics and our media complex, which, let's not forget, are private companies (CNN = Time Warner, NBC = Comcast, ABC = The Walt Disney Company, CBS is a fusion of National Amusements, Paramount Pictures, and Viacom, Fox News = Fox, and so on...) whose ultimate motivation is profit, not rightfully informing you. Makes sense right? There's only so many different ways to dress up the truth. Reflecting on 2020, I'd say the largest event was COVID-19. IMO, that is what actually led to the riots. You had people out of work, out of money, cooped up inside, told they can't travel, told to wear masks, being given conflicting information, no end in sight, watching "Tiger King" for the 69th time, etc, etc. Seems like a good root cause to me. But no, what caused the riots all summer long? Race, according to the "experts;" according to doctrine. But is that view justified, at all??? Has it been effectively defended or challenged? Was 2020 an outlier in regards to police "brutality"? Not likely. Yet here's the debrief: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/06/2020-not-1968/, https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-brutality-coronavirus-trump-protests-ongoing-summer-2020/, the theme being, "it was caused by systemic mistreatment of blacks"...really? That's our root cause from this mission? Nah. Point being, we (America) have a split-view of reality. If you think only one side has scales on their eyes, I'm here to tell you the next four years are probably going to feel like the last four, and you'll still be wondering WTF if you think Trump is the root cause. Trump isn't the cancer, he's a symptom. This problem ain't going anywhere until we start discussing our problems from positions of good faith.

Agree, mostly because congress abdicates their responsibilities.

Yes, absolutely they do. What we have decided, however, is that some level of collective risk-management is appropriate (to moderate the degree of risk). This comes to us in the form of laws that we are all required to obey. Your second point is also true - no one needs to go driving out on the highway if they feel the risk of driving 55 if too much for them - they can walk, take the bus, or drive on surface streets. Your final comment re: "you shouldn't be able to tell me..." is a non-starter - it undermines all law.

You racing on a closed track is up to you. You speeding on a public highway is not up to you. The distinction isn't whether or not you interpret it as dangerous. The distinction is whether or not your actions put other people at risk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/26/us/supreme-court-coronavirus-religion-new-york.html https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-religion-california/u-s-supreme-court-sides-with-challenge-to-californias-covid-19-religious-service-curbs-idUSKBN28D2B2 Here are cases where governors restricted (arbitrarily) certain activities while preferencing others. Supreme court to the rescue.

11F. Generally, I think masks are a good idea. What are not good ideas? Limiting (actual) essential business hours - because it increases the density of people. Limiting entrances and exits to essential businesses - because it increases the density of people. Forcing people to take a vaccine - because it violates their rights. Having virus "passports" - because it violates their rights. Paying me and my co-workers (bros) stimulus money - because they don't need it. Paying airline pilots their full salaries - because they don't need it. 90%+ of the money spent/allocated on the latest stimulus - read it, if it doesn't piss you off, there is something wrong with you. What are good ideas? Temporarily shutting down non-essential businesses - this is most things - way more than what is currently allowed to operate (i.e. ALL restaurants, most big box stores). Continuing to funnel money to people, through their employers, to be able to barely make ends meet. Suspending bills/payments/etc until the worst of this is over. This meme is true, but only because our government is run by pussies who didn't have the courage to actually shut the m'fer down. That's me, because at this point, it is what we have collectively decided is the way forward, but it doesn't make it less ridiculous/kabuki theater.

It's not a silver bullet - it's part of an array of strategies that are supposed to help us manage the disease and mitigate its impact. Remember, once upon a time washing your hands was considered controversial, but now, no one disputes its value: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/handwashing-once-controversial-medical-advice/ https://www.history.com/news/hand-washing-disease-infection https://globalhandwashing.org/about-handwashing/history-of-handwashing/ Honestly, though I do see some aspect of theater in this, I don't get the hyper-fretting over mask-wearing. But I see where a bit of the noise is coming from. That said, mask-wearing's role in helping diminish COVID's R-value is completely uncontroversial.

In fairness, I will point out that the signature above his belongs to his civilian boss - remember, just because he's a four-star doesn't mean he answers to no one... Personally, I'm just looking forward to seeing what gets classified as "inappropriate" this time around. Should provide good fodder for roll-calls (when they come back). Last round, dudes had to take down pictures of their family's beach vacation because their wife happened to be wearing a bikini. I shit you not.

God I would love to see the Thunderbirds have to change their mascot because of shit like this...GD that would be funny.

Dudes, whether or not it "filters" COVID out of your breath is not the point - of course it doesn't. What masks do accomplish is reducing the "energy" of your breath, thereby minimizing the size of the cloud and the distance it travels. That is why it's more difficult to breathe through, and that is the point - to minimize the spread. It takes more than one individual virus to infect you, so the less exposure you have, the less chance you have of contracting the disease and spreading it yourself. Point being: masks are accomplishing their stated goal.

RE: education One thing we need to do if we really are concerned about the rise in education costs is ask ourselves why the cost of education has gone up. It's all well and good to lament the cost of higher ed and just throw more money at the problem - which is exactly what student debt "forgiveness" (transfer) is, in actuality. The solution is likely counter-intuitive, though, and IMO this means eliminating all (yes, ALL) student loans from the federal government. I get that this is a problem affecting a generation, but if we are going to solve this problem, let's solve it permanently, and avoid going around the merry-go-round for another lap. There is good evidence that the student loan program which has swelled from $3B in 1970 to over $160B in 2017 (https://www.mercatus.org/publications/education-policy/reevaluating-effects-federal-financing-higher-education) is driving up the cost of college - it just makes sense, right? I mean, if you're an institution of higher learning, what incentive do you have to not raise the price when there is effectively and unlimited stream of money to tap into? Other studies have determined that for every $1.00 subsidy (in student loans) the price of college rises between $0.58 and $0.78 - not much bang for our tax buck (https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/how-unlimited-student-loans-drive-up-tuition/). My compromise? Fine, let's all "forgive" student debt, but any discussion along those lines needs to come with an admission that the student loan program has unequivocally failed, having had the opposite effect from its stated goal, and hence will be permanently scuttled.

Nah bro. All I said was state welfare for NK wasn't the only way forward. I guess that was against your orthodoxy. For the record, I thought going into AFG - in the way we did - was a mistake in '01. And for the record, I thought going into Iraq (in '03) was also a mistake. That's where I'm coming from. Now, I'm gonna go hang out in a thread that has reading comprehension. Peace.

No. I do not consider her center. She is extreme left.

Ehhhh, so party "A" makes a LOT of money, and that means party "B" needs to transfer some of their money to party "C"??? mmmmmmkay. Copy timeout. Pk miss. Leave previous point red. Play.

Well it is, though, actually... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/21/climate/green-new-deal-questions-answers.html https://www.npr.org/2019/02/07/691997301/rep-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-releases-green-new-deal-outline This effort has the support of many "center" democrats such as Kirsten Gillibrand, Elizabeth Warren, Mazie Hirono, Ron Wyden, Richard Blumenthal, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, Tom Udall, etc. Of course the reality is that group is actually extreme, though few in the mainstream democratic party would place those individuals into the SJW twitter mob...or would they? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/education/free-college-tuition-four-year/ Plenty of other "mainstream" democrats support the notion of "free" public college. https://www.vox.com/2019/4/22/18509196/elizabeth-warren-debt-free-college Liz Warren wants to give this subsidy to those making between 100-250K/yr...seriously? Forgive me, but this is what passes as "mainstream" now-a-days, so the push back from the right is completely understandable. Even the language that is used around these topics is deceiving. They call it debt "cancellation" when it reality it is more accurately classified as transfer.

The first time I read your response I thought you were replying to someone else - the amount of straw in your response is unreal. It actually made me re-read my post to see if I somehow wandered way off reservation. You completely avoided the point I was making, that is: the way forward with NK isn't exclusively dependent on "welfare" from their betters. The rest of what you responded to is in your head - none of it came from my mouth. NK doesn't have natural resources. Cool. Neither does SK. How is SK so successful? East Germany still has slums from the Soviet era? Cool. Los Angeles still has slums from the democrat era. Are we just gonna throw the towel in with LA? Point being, you brought up a lot of things that had no bearing on the point I was making, but I'm sure it was fun chaffing the lane.

The Rock?