Negatory

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/healthcare/2021/09/06/covid-central-texas-hospital-capacity-no-icu-beds/5746524001/ So it begins.

Good thing we had someone bring up that totally clear entirely transferable argument about bodily autonomy. By the way the ACLU defines viability as 6-7 months, and therefore fights for that definition, if you’re gonna try to say the ACLU is on your side in this case while talking out of the other side of your mouth when it doesn’t suit you.

Yeah, great question, what are the long term effects of COVID? Because mid term and permanent damage is way worse than vaccination: Oh, the one thing that is higher risk in COVID vaccinated folks is Lymphadenopathy. Which is swollen lymph nodes. But enjoy the orders of magnitude more likely Kidney injuries, arrhythmia, and intracranial hemorrhaging because it “wasn’t worth the risk.”

Because, as I’ve said, there is no scientific evidence to suggest we need to discriminate between the two from an efficacy perspective. Everything suggests that Moderna/JJ provide about the same protection at very minimal risk. FDA approval is not some magic thing that liberal policy makers cling onto, and you shouldn’t either - although you will to be obtuse. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that FDA approval correlates to efficacy. It’s why all of these people on this forum - a lot of your peers - have been successfully vaccinated for months before FDA approval. This is condescending, but this is my 4th message and I addressed it previously. Learn to read and comprehend people’s responses: I understand the next message from you will be, “I still see you simply cannot address my point. Pfizer is good, so if libtards were being good science followers, they would mandate it over everything else because we live in a black and white world. Checkmate.”

They did. They just allowed very common sense, agreeable exceptions for Moderna/JJ. If you seriously want to argue that that is bad policy then you are intentionally being obtuse. I guarantee you would be more upset if they said that everyone including those that got Moderna/JJ had to get revaccinated. The science shows no reason for that. You’re making up an argument that no one is arguing.

I think we’re all talking past each other a little bit. If natural infection results in immunity comparable to or better than vaccination, why do those folks need to be vaccinated? So that they are extra super resistant to the virus?

As @pawnman said, they did exactly what you were complaining about here. Pfizer is the only one mandated - check the memo. This sort of arguing with half truths is why a lot of these discussions go nowhere. You asking the question the way you did is easily construed as misinformation. You didn’t ask “is Pfizer mandated?” You asked why “isn’t the military mandating members to take the Pfizer vaccine” as if you looked it up, found out they weren’t, and then brought new information to this forum. But 10 seconds of your own research would have shown that is exactly what happened. If you’re trying to say that we should be arguing that if you got Moderna it shouldn’t count and you should be forced to get Pfizer, you’re creating a nothing burger argument that no one is going to bite off on. I think we can all agree that the military allowing Moderna/JJ to count is in everyone’s best interest, as the research so far shows that there is no reason to believe they are significantly less effective - they just haven’t finished the FDA process yet. On a completely different note, this pandemic has highlighted that much of these efforts overwhelmingly support the obese and those who choose to be unhealthy. Just as I think that unvaccinated folks that get very ill with Covid chose their fate, to the extent that they could have been protected and weren’t, I believe the same for those that are extremely out of shape. I hope that at some point we have an honest look at improving that elephant in the room. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/78-of-covid-19-patients-hospitalized-in-the-us-overweight-or-obese-cdc-finds.html

I really only see it affecting my views on policy implementation. I think I am still in support of immunity for everyone. I’m fine with mandatory vaccines for folks that haven’t had COVID. But it doesn’t really pass the common sense test to force folks that have had COVID to get vaccinated if they already have pretty great immunity. Yes, I saw the study that shows that folks that previously had COVID that got vaccinated did better than folks that had COVID that weren’t vaccinated. But at what point is someone safe enough? If they already have better immunity than just the shot, do they need super double plus immunity just so everyone has had the vaccine? It’s seems to be more about compliance than efficacy.

I’ve definitely been a pro-vax advocate on this forum, but I’ve been digging into some of the natural immunity studies that have been linked. Another one was just released in preprint that shows that natural immunity is 7-13 times more effective than 2 dose Pfizer: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Words matter, you’re gonna need to see this one again. Actually, you’re probably just gonna need to take some time out of the upgrade to reassess performance. You said, very specifically, medical professionals would change their medical opinions. They never changed their medical opinion that large groups were bad for COVID transmission.

My wife had one about 12 years ago as a paramedic in an ER after a hurricane. Copy you’re not interested in answering the question.

Here’s one for you. You have a heart attack. You’re vaccinated and did not have any risk factors for a heart attack. You eat well, don’t smoke, exercise, etc. Should unvaccinated people - who were offered a vaccine for free and actively decided not to protect either themselves or society - be prioritized over you for treatment in the ICU? There’s only one bed left and it’s you and a new unvaccinated COVID patient that showed up right before you. Only one of you gets it. There are no helicopters or magic buttons. You or the COVID patient need to be in the ICU in the next 15 minutes. Choose. Oh, it’s not so black and white.

This took 5 seconds on google btw (this is the last week): https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arkansas/articles/2021-08-23/arkansas-covid-patients-on-ventilators-reaches-new-record Your appeals to emotion aren’t relevant. If an unvaccinated OR vaccinated person comes in with a better chance of survival than someone not doing so hot, they get prioritized. Turns out vaccinated people have significantly better outcomes, in most cases, so it’s easy to see the logical steps for prioritization. Sorry, Aunt Martha who caught COVID at an anti government lockdown protest isn’t going to be prioritized over Uncle Brandon who got a breakthrough case but is vaccinated. Yes. She may die. Welcome to the hell that is triage. This decision is being made daily in portions of the US.

One data point: heavy pilots including KC-135 and C-17 drivers regularly fly the F-16, T-38, and even the A-10 without any instructors during TPS. To answer your question, yes, they do. Turns out having an afterburner or flying fighters from a pure “flight” perspective isn’t that hard. In fact, most modern fighters are arguably easier to fly than many heavy airplanes. Employing tactically, now that’s a whole other story…

It’s a nuanced medical question that makes people uncomfortable, because it turns out the Hippocratic oath doesn’t cover everything when it comes to ethics. There are already numerous papers written right now on culpability of patients in prioritization of care and how to apply that to caring for a population. You don’t have to actively deny care for anyone - that would be against the core values of medicine - but prioritizing someone lower is standard practice in medical triage. Also, severity is not the only variable taken into account during triage. Turns out there’s no universal standard, and it comes down to specific hospital/doctor standard operating procedures. https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2020/04/29/should-culpability-or-negligence-of-the-patient-affect-triage-decisions-a-question-the-state-needs-to-answer-for-healthcare-professionals/

You’ve been unable to actually engage the core of the issue: when resources get to a point of NOT ALLOWING EVERYONE TO BE CARED FOR, you can’t just provide help “where help is needed” like you said. Be pragmatic and actually address a world where there are limited resources. Or live in la la land where hospitals being filled up by unvaccinated folks - who chose to not do anything to prevent that outcome - has totally no negative effect on other people or society.

@dogfish78 welcome back! See my previous post that you couldn’t figure out a response for and probably start your argument there (you responded to every other thread on this website, though, it seems).

Its not playing dirty to point out that the medical and scientific leadership in America’s health systems - who Fauci represents - actually have been relatively resolute, steadfast, and adaptive to new scientific information in their policies and approaches. Also, @HeloDudetry again, those journalistic articles are no representation of scientific consensus. Just because you can find news articles about “medical professionals” who think HQC and Ivermectin are effective doesn’t mean that’s a consensus among science. By your logic, this persons opinion matters as much as the CDC and Fauci: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-53579773.amp Also, last point, but the articles that you posted literally never said that anyone didn’t think that protests were bad when it comes to COVID. They all acknowledged that the groups would increase everyone’s risk. They just personally thought that racial justice was worth the cost: ”Risking coronavirus pales in comparison to all the other ways we can die,” says Dr. Dorothy Charles, a family medicine resident at the University of Illinois College of Medicine and an organizer at the racial-justice group White Coats for Black Lives. “Addressing the root causes [of racial inequality] is more imperative at this point than staying at home.””

For your counterpoint, please show me an example of when Fauci directly disregarded agreed upon scientific evidence as was understood at the time for his own political gain. You’re going to have a tough time, even though you wish you wouldn’t.

Your argument incorrectly categorizes everyone in medicine into the same bucket, from the whackos pushing crystal healing to the PhDs at the CDC. No matter what, “they” are the “medical professionals.” The truth is the folks that were saying that protests for BLM were not super spreader events - purely because it fit the liberal political agenda - do not represent the wide body of science. Pretty sure there are very few papers out there that would corroborate MSNBCs claims that protests are no big deal. Remember when Fauci bought off on the liberal agenda and said that the BLM protests were okay? Oh, right. He didn’t. He said “avoid crowds of any type.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/healthcare/509961-jim-jordan-presses-fauci-on-protests-covid-19%3famp You provided an absurd overgeneralization that wasn’t related to the discussion at hand, I provided an absurd point back. Trying to discredit scientists by cherry-picking idiots that went on CNN for political gain is disingenuous. For the record, I am equally as disgusted by how liberal media - not scientists - treated the BLM protests in regards to COVID as I am by the current conservative media is in regards to the vaccine.

Remember when there were tons of headlines and news stories about democrats regularly dying from the vaccine, because they were incorrectly and wrongly convinced it was safe by a disingenuous disinformation campaign? … Wait, did I mix up how that went down?

Some of it actually is, though. The sooner we all recognize this, the better we will be able to come together as a team to combat it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jul/16/us-politics-live-covid-coronavirus-wildfires-biden-latest https://www.reuters.com/world/china/russia-china-sow-disinformation-undermine-trust-western-vaccines-eu-report-says-2021-04-28/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/chinese-spam-network-aims-to-discredit-u-s-covid-vaccine-and-response-report-finds/

It’s hilarious how the antivax folks have been convinced they need to be against experimental vaccines politically (although that experiment just ended)… and instead put their faith in highly experimental unvetted glove save treatments. It’s pure dissension that is bred by social media and a combination of malicious and incompetent actors. If you’re in this camp, ask yourself if you think 2 years ago you would have been anti science? Would 2 year ago you have turned down an American made vaccine developed to combat a global pandemic that killed 650k Americans? The answer is probably no. So why is it happening? Bad actors are playing with you and the preying on the weaknesses of a “free society” when it comes to disinformation. Dogfish78 is an example of someone who, at best, is a victim to those disinformation efforts. At worst, he’s actively and intentionally trying to propagate them. At first, posts of people being hurt by disinformation made me scratch my head, now they just make me sad. Below is just a small sample of the last couple of weeks. A reminder that, statistically, had they been vaccinated, all of these Americans would have lived. https://www.rawstory.com/vaccine-hesitancy-2654291616/ https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-mask-freedom-rally-045722778.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/anti-vaxxer-dies-of-covid-days-after-saying-theres-nothing-to-be-afraid-of/

Ivermectin, huh? We’ve already been through this with hydroxychloriquine. In case you’re wondering, yes, there were passionate “physicians” touting hydroxychloriquine in congressional hearings last year as well. People like you are convinced the government is covering up a treatment in a giant conspiracy. It’s almost funny to even think that the government is capable of that, but I digress. What happened? People took hydroxychloriquine anyways. Brazil prescribed it. Some random doctors went on talk radio to “expose the truth” about this miracle drug. In our case, it made it through the misinformation chain all the way through Fox News up to our previous President. Still with no evidence. A year later, there is now definitive proof that hydroxychloriquine provides no benefit, just as doctors said. Some studies show that it actually is associated with worse outcomes. Turns out being a conspiracy theorist with little actual scientific proof doesn’t work. News coverage and people pushing that treatment silently died out on OAN and Fox, weird, huh? Ivermectin is not a secret conspiracy miracle drug that is being ignored. There is a very low chance that it may be helpful - which hasn’t been proven whatsoever. You want to know what’s been proven via millions of people in large studies to combat the effects of COVID? Vaccines. Yes, natural immunity is a thing as well, I’m not debating that. Realize that doctors and researchers are not all government shills. They are on the range of political spectrums, and, by and large, they want to actually help people. Put a little more trust in your fellow American. Also, your insistence on calling an mRNA vaccine “gene therapy” seriously reduces your credibility. It’s honestly almost impossible to listen past there. It’s a talk radio tactic, just like calling Obama “BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA” every time they said his name from 2008 until now, but it doesn’t make your or their argument any more true. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2PH16N https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/amp/ https://www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk/blog/why-mrna-vaccines-arent-gene-therapies/ Yes, I have already accepted that you think that webmd, Reuters, Forbes, and the NHS are all part of the deep state conspiracy to hide the fact that mRNA vaccines are IN FACT secret government gene therapy.

Not voluntarily.