Questions on TPS (Test Pilot School)

[Dupe]

Why are we wasting time on hypotheticals so far removed from the present...IF you get picked up at the unit, IF you pass UPT in the top half, IF you pass IFF, IF you pass RTU, IF you don't get killed, IF you pass your pt test...blah blah blah, then 5 years down the road you might want to gladly help the air force out and go to TPS. Great....get in line with everyone else and their mom...oh and actually get on the train that everyone is riding instead of yelling all these questions from the station.

There's value in describing the rails my train has traveled so that others may decide with some intelligence to hop on or not.

[schokie]

Dupe,

What do you think about Flight Test Engineer? I'm slightly ignorant on the topic, but from what I've heard it sounds like it might match up nicely with Luke_C's interests and concerns. How much flying do they actually get to do?

[Muscle2002]

Dupe,

What do you think about Flight Test Engineer? I'm slightly ignorant on the topic, but from what I've heard it sounds like it might match up nicely with Luke_C's interests and concerns. How much flying do they actually get to do?

It seems to be about a sortie or two per week in my squadron, but that depends on their job. FTEs in the F-22/F-35 CTF/ITF are lucky if they fly once every couple of months.

[Milchstrasse]

Why are we wasting time on hypotheticals so far removed from the present...IF you get picked up at the unit, IF you pass UPT in the top half, IF you pass IFF, IF you pass RTU, IF you don't get killed, IF you pass your pt test...blah blah blah, then 5 years down the road you might want to gladly help the air force out and go to TPS. Great....get in line with everyone else and their mom...oh and actually get on the train that everyone is riding instead of yelling all these questions from the station.

God forbid we be curious, have ambition, and want some information.

[Nineline]

It seems to be about a sortie or two per week in my squadron, but that depends on their job. FTEs in the F-22/F-35 CTF/ITF are lucky if they fly once every couple of months.

Serious question... how does a FTE actually fly in a single seat airplane?

-9-

[Termy]

They don't; they fly in the back of F-16D's. Plenty of open pits at EDW.

[Muscle2002]

They don't; they fly in the back of F-16D's. Plenty of open pits at EDW.

Yeah to echo what Termy said:, Make no mistake, if you actually want to pilot aircraft then try for UPT with the end goal of getting into TPS. FTEs are not rated and only fly occasionally.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Muscle2002

[luke_c]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. Much appreciated. I did look into the FTE route, but I couldn't find much info on what their specific job is after graduating (aside from reading that they follow virtually the same curriculum at TPS as the pilots do). Does anyone have any light to shed on that?

[skosh]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. Much appreciated. I did look into the FTE route, but I couldn't find much info on what their specific job is after graduating (aside from reading that they follow virtually the same curriculum at TPS as the pilots do). Does anyone have any light to shed on that?

They become astronauts:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronauts/2013_hague.html

[Dupe]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. Much appreciated. I did look into the FTE route, but I couldn't find much info on what their specific job is after graduating (aside from reading that they follow virtually the same curriculum at TPS as the pilots do). Does anyone have any light to shed on that?

Its hard to find decent FTE information, as the job is so different based on platform and location. It could be anything from directing a F-35 test flight from a control room to running instrumentation from a test station on the back of the KC-46 to testing some new datalink test widget in the back of a 707.

The real challenge with FTEs in the Air Force is that being a FTE is a position and not a career. Our FTEs are expected to see AFRL and Program Office positions in their careers, and may not ever develop the depth that a really good Industry FTE would have. FTEs still have their same functional at AFPC... they don't switch to a TPS-only functional like the rated guys do. I seem to have many discussions with young engineers that revolve around "I'm not happy: I thought I would be doing actual egineering and I'm not."

There are some really interesting civilian FTE / test pilot jobs out there. Most don't require being a TPS grad either. In both the U-28 and MC-12 programs, FTEs were critical to developing new capabilities on very short cycles. Guys writing the code were often the same guys using the systems on developmental flights.

[luke_c]

Appreciate the feedback, folks. You raise some really good points that I haven't considered. I have a bit more thinking to do, I'd reckon :)

[deaddebate]

New PSDM on myPers.

9 April 2015 / PSDM: 15-31 / SUBJECT: 20 - 24 July 2015 USAF Test Pilot School Selection Board Announcement / (APPLICATION SUSPENSE: 5 June 2015)

[Tonka]

What's the class size these days? Breakdown of #s?

[R-Dub]

20 to a class. About 8-9-ish pilots, 8-9-ish FTEs/WSOs/CSOs, an RPA dude/dudette, and a couple of foreign/joint partners.

[Magellan]

20 to a class. About 8-9-ish pilots, 8-9-ish FTEs/WSOs/CSOs, an RPA dude/dudette, and a couple of foreign/joint partners.

15B

1 F-16 Pilot

1 F-15E Pilot

1 B-1 Pilot

2 C-17 Pilots

1 B-52 Pilot

1 F-15 WSO

1 MQ-1/9 Pilot

1 Marine Harrier Pilot

7 Active Duty FTE

1 Civilian FTE

17 Total

Of note class size is shrinking and it appears to be on the pilot side if 15B and 16A are any indicators. RUMINT was TPS plussed up the student numbers a while back with the promise of increased instructors to follow, but they never got extra faculty so they had to scale back to not burn the faculty into the ground.

[Hermey]

For pilots: how many have graduate studies done beforehand with a engineering/technical masters/doctorate vs. non technical graduate studies vs. none at all?

[olevelo]

15B

1 F-16 Pilot

1 F-15E Pilot

1 B-1 Pilot

2 C-17 Pilots

1 B-52 Pilot

1 F-15 WSO

1 MQ-1/9 Pilot

1 Marine Harrier Pilot

7 Active Duty FTE

1 Civilian FTE

17 Total

Of note class size is shrinking and it appears to be on the pilot side if 15B and 16A are any indicators. RUMINT was TPS plussed up the student numbers a while back with the promise of increased instructors to follow, but they never got extra faculty so they had to scale back to not burn the faculty into the ground.

Those numbers only include the AF selects (although you do have a Marine listed). The other 3 will be some combination of Navy/Marine and foreign students. If I wasn't on terminal leave I could verify the final numbers (although the no-shit final list probably won't be done til May/June due to last minute swaps and such). But class size is holding steady at 20 for now, down from 24 for a few years.

For pilots: how many have graduate studies done beforehand with a engineering/technical masters/doctorate vs. non technical graduate studies vs. none at all?

I've never looked at the hard numbers, but from empirical evidence, for rated folks I'd say about 40-60% have a technical masters, and about 80-85% have a masters period. Maybe a little higher for both. The AFIT option is good for those that don't. For non-rated it's about 99% with a technical masters. There's always a couple that squeak in but it's harder and harder to get in without it. The majority of those have AFIT degrees.

[stract]

no helo slots on the AF side?

[Muscle2002]

no helo slots on the AF side?

There are 2-3 folks slated for USNTPS

[olevelo]

There are 2-3 folks slated for USNTPS

Affirm, there's generally one USAF helo pilot in each USNTPS class. Occasionally we send an engineer there as well. The only helo flying USAF TPS studs get is on field trips to Pax and other places, and lately an R-44 has been coming out for each class as well.

[Motofalcon]

Hey dudes/dudettes, I have been reading this thread and talking to anyone I could find about getting in to TPS. Short version - T-6 FAIP, then went to vipers, did a combat deployment (with a fair amount of employments), made it through the IPUG in one tour, FCF guy in both T-6 and F-16. Bachelors and masters in mechanical engineering (2.6 and 3.4 GPA, respectively). I applied the last two years (letters from sq/cc, former sq/cc and wg/cc - two WIC patches, but no TPS grads), but never even got a call back for an interview. I did have to put in for a GPA waiver for my undergrad, and a time in service waiver last year, but I never heard they were disapproved, so I guess they were approved. Am I missing something? Does the FAIP tour hurt me? I would have figured multiple airframes might look good to the DT world or break even, but not hurt my resume. I have heard the golden ticket is to have a TPS grad write you a letter of recommendation, but you don't see too many blue patches walking around your average UPT training squadron/CAF fighter squadron, so it's tough to talk to someone from that world, let alone get a letter. Anybody have any insights? I might give it one more shot this year, but not sure my age waiver will go through. I understand they want young guys (STS) in the community so they can get some good test years out of them, but they also want experienced IPs... kinda can't have both.

Any advice would be appreciated, feel free to PM for more details if you want.

[R-Dub]

...words...

Bro, here's some totally unsubstantiated rumors on the selection process that I and some of the other dudes from my class have heard about the process. Alibi: I have absolutely no idea how the selection board actually works or what the criteria actually is outside the scope of my own application process or those of my bros/classmates. This is strictly RUMINT:

- My understanding of the selection process is that "no news is bad news." The only way you would know if your waivers were actually approved is if you received an invite to the CCEP. If you never received explicit notification that your waiver requests were approved, then they probably weren't.

- speaking of waivers... AFI 99-107 went through a revision in 2013 that restricted the maximum TIS for pilot applicants. I was told during my CCEP interview that this was because the average pilot applicant was generally already a major select with a school slot. That means that TPS grads were barely getting their 2 years TOS at their first CTF before they went to school, staff, then back to a CTF to be the DO. In order to get a little more experience under their belt, AFTC/AFMC simply reduced the TOS requirement. This will obviously reduce the number of eligibles for each application cycle, but apparently there's still more elligible applicants than number of available slots, so it's not a problem for AFTC.

- Because of the previous, the RUMINT is that the TIS waiver is pretty difficult to get right now. I've heard of people getting it in the past, but I don't think anyone currently at the school needed/received one. I know there's a pretty old dude in either 15B/16A, but I don't know the specifics.

- The answer is always no if you don't apply. I would apply again.

Good luck!

[Muscle2002]

This is strictly RUMINT:

- My understanding of the selection process is that "no news is bad news." The only way you would know if your waivers were actually approved is if you received an invite to the CCEP. If you never received explicit notification that your waiver requests were approved, then they probably weren't.

In the past, pilots were told if their waiver request was approved/denied

- speaking of waivers... AFI 99-107 went through a revision in 2013 that restricted the maximum TIS for pilot applicants. I was told during my CCEP interview that this was because the average pilot applicant was generally already a major select with a school slot. That means that TPS grads were barely getting their 2 years TOS at their first CTF before they went to school, staff, then back to a CTF to be the DO. In order to get a little more experience under their belt, AFTC/AFMC simply reduced the TOS requirement. This will obviously reduce the number of eligibles for each application cycle, but apparently there's still more elligible applicants than number of available slots, so it's not a problem for AFTC.

We just had a brief from the AFTC/CC where this sentiment was echoed. One correction, they didn't decrease the time on station (TOS) requirement but are, as you said less likely to waive the TAFCS requirement.

- The answer is always no if you don't apply. I would apply again.

Shack!

[Muscle2002]

Hey dudes/dudettes, I have been reading this thread and talking to anyone I could find about getting in to TPS. Short version - T-6 FAIP, then went to vipers, did a combat deployment (with a fair amount of employments), made it through the IPUG in one tour, FCF guy in both T-6 and F-16. Bachelors and masters in mechanical engineering (2.6 and 3.4 GPA, respectively). I applied the last two years (letters from sq/cc, former sq/cc and wg/cc - two WIC patches, but no TPS grads), but never even got a call back for an interview. I did have to put in for a GPA waiver for my undergrad, and a time in service waiver last year, but I never heard they were disapproved, so I guess they were approved. Am I missing something? Does the FAIP tour hurt me? I would have figured multiple airframes might look good to the DT world or break even, but not hurt my resume. I have heard the golden ticket is to have a TPS grad write you a letter of recommendation, but you don't see too many blue patches walking around your average UPT training squadron/CAF fighter squadron, so it's tough to talk to someone from that world, let alone get a letter. Anybody have any insights? I might give it one more shot this year, but not sure my age waiver will go through. I understand they want young guys (STS) in the community so they can get some good test years out of them, but they also want experienced IPs... kinda can't have both.

Any advice would be appreciated, feel free to PM for more details if you want.

I wouldn't say that a TPS grad recommendation is the golden ticket, however, there is a reason why the recommendation form asks the write whether they graduated from TPS. In my experience, it almost always is better to have someone who knows you well write for you rather than a Wg/CC or GO if you cannot get a grad to do it. When you read the recommendation, you can tell if the person just signed a form pre-filled by the candidate (because it lacks a personal touch) which calls into question how well the writer knows the candidate.

Blunt feedback: a 2.6 GPA is not great when the average select has around a 3.6-3.7 GPA. The minimum is 3.0 according to the application requirements. However, you demonstrated you can hack advanced engineering via your M.S. I would try to highlight your success in the graduate program in your application.

Regarding the waiver status: call the office after you submit the waiver to check the status. You're not going to piss anyone off to ask as long as you don't bug them. It's your career, so you have the right to know. If you feel uncomfortable doing that, then ask your CC to track that info down.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Muscle2002

[Dupe]

Hey dudes/dudettes, I have been reading this thread and talking to anyone I could find about getting in to TPS.

Why do you want to go to TPS?

I ask because there are test jobs out there that are pretty damn relevant but don't require going to a year of hodge-podge academics and a life in AFMC.