UPT washout

[Guest SpunkDagger]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/04/airforce_drawdown_041210w/

A good portion of the 737 ROTC commissionees are my close friends.

You have a lot of close friends

[dontshavemyhead]

47th OG/CC said today that UPT washouts, especially DORs, will be ripe for force shaping. He also mentioned that you may be liable for your training costs, to include your academy educations. I call shenanigans on the latter.

Edited April 15, 2010 by dontshavemyhead

[Gravedigger]

47th OG/CC said today that UPT washouts, especially DORs, will be ripe for force shaping. He also mentioned that you may be liable for your training costs, to include your academy educations. I call shenanigans on the latter.

That's interesting considering the FM briefing from AFPC mentioned DORs having a better opportunity at being reclassed than failures...

I guess time will tell.

[Guest columbus2LT]

That's interesting considering the FM briefing from AFPC mentioned DORs having a better opportunity at being reclassed than failures...

I guess time will tell.

Should be interesting....

Bottom line, just bust your ass at UPT!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pretty nervous about all this talk, but I try not to worry about it; as long as I bust my ass and know that I'm 3 rides from SEPARATION it should be all good.

[sky_king]

From what I've seen in my tour here, follow these steps and you'll be ok... even if you suck at flying.

1) Study your ass off

2) Work your ass off

3) Help your bros

4) Don't be a DOUCHEBAG

[Guest vetaviator]

So, if I understand correctly... even though you were washed out of USAF UPT, it is still an option to go in the ARMY or Coast Guard to fly(according to the regulations). I have not met anyone who have done this, but I have heard of many. Does anyone know of an instance where this transpired? What is the process? Please advise.

[Karl Hungus]

So, if I understand correctly... even though you were washed out of USAF UPT, it is still an option to go in the ARMY or Coast Guard to fly(according to the regulations). I have not met anyone who have done this, but I have heard of many. Does anyone know of an instance where this transpired? What is the process? Please advise.

If you washed out of UPT, what makes you think you'd make it through any other version of pilot training?

[Gravedigger]

So, if I understand correctly... even though you were washed out of USAF UPT, it is still an option to go in the ARMY or Coast Guard to fly(according to the regulations). I have not met anyone who have done this, but I have heard of many. Does anyone know of an instance where this transpired? What is the process? Please advise.

I don't think the Coast Guard is an option. Direct commission is the only option for folks already commissioned, and these are the requirements.

Qualifications and Application Procedures:

* Must be a graduate of a U.S. military flight training program

* Have full-time military or civilian flight experience within two years of the published application deadline

* Have a Baccalaureate Degree or have completed 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours) at an accredited college or university

* Have served a minimum of two years as either a Warrant Officer in the Army or a Commissioned Officer in any of the Armed Forces

* Rotary-wing applicants must present evidence of being a military rotary-wing designated aviator with a minimum of 500 rotary wing flight hours (not including flight training hours). Fixed-wing applicants must possess evidence of being a military fixed-wing designated aviator with a minimum of 500 hours in a fixed-wing aircraft. Waivers are not authorized for minimum flight hours requirement

* Present current Class I flight physical (with results of chest x-ray and Coast Guard anthropometric standards)

[Guest vetaviator]

I don't think the Coast Guard is an option. Direct commission is the only option for folks already commissioned, and these are the requirements.

Qualifications and Application Procedures:

* Must be a graduate of a U.S. military flight training program

* Have full-time military or civilian flight experience within two years of the published application deadline

* Have a Baccalaureate Degree or have completed 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours) at an accredited college or university

* Have served a minimum of two years as either a Warrant Officer in the Army or a Commissioned Officer in any of the Armed Forces

* Rotary-wing applicants must present evidence of being a military rotary-wing designated aviator with a minimum of 500 rotary wing flight hours (not including flight training hours). Fixed-wing applicants must possess evidence of being a military fixed-wing designated aviator with a minimum of 500 hours in a fixed-wing aircraft. Waivers are not authorized for minimum flight hours requirement

* Present current Class I flight physical (with results of chest x-ray and Coast Guard anthropometric standards)

Thanks! However, I have a very good friend who was selected this year to go coast guard. They, washed out of UPT a few yeas back. The USCG ultimately required them to resign commission and then and go back through the USCG commissioning source. I am more than sure it happens. There is another person currently flying in the USCG who washed out of Pensacola as a naval officer, went back as a Coast Guard Officer and did fine.

The CG is kicking out all kinds of officers (overmanned). Not sure about the Army.

I particularly would like to go Army and info is greatly appreciated.

[bfargin]

I particularly would like to go Army and info is greatly appreciated.

A quick search found this website.

http://www.usarmyaviation.com/lounge.html

I'm sure there is tons of info out there, just search a little.

[Guest vetaviator]

A quick search found this website.

http://www.usarmyaviation.com/lounge.html

I'm sure there is tons of info out there, just search a little.

Thanks!

[Big Bear]

4) Don't be a DOUCHEBAG

shack!

[Guest vetaviator]

shack!

I am pretty keen on the actual process, however i am looking for a person who has first hand knowledge of this situation. I've checked the regulations and have taken the physical and AFAST at this point. But, being on the outside

I know there are things I may not be aware of.

[Guest burner]

When I attended ACSC in 1999-2000, Gen Ron Fogleman spoke to us from the stage. He said he had a lousy attitude as an IP at UPT, saying that if you didn't know how to fly when you got there, he wasn't going to show you. I looked around to see the reaction, which was mixed. Instructing is not for everyone.

[Guest burner]

1988 equals 37% washout rate. That's the year I graduated from UPT. So...all the rest of you bee-otches need to quit your snivelling and crying.

Hell, my kindergarten class had a higher wash-out rate then what we're seeing today. Maybe we need to go back to some tough love.

Who's with me...

I wanted to post this following the 37% quote. As someone who was at Mather in 1986-7, for both UNT and EWO, I had lots of friends join me there who were from each of the 6 UPT bases (they had their names sewn on vs velcro like SUNT. Some UNT classes were 1/3 of "pre-nav" UPT guys; 3 guys were elim'd on form ck (the last check ride?); and then the one guy from ENJJPT said that his 10 checkrides compared with 6 cks in reg UPT (so he would have been complete, if not for the 10th ck). A few guys were top stick in 37s, then elim'd in 38s. Their gripe was that if they were in USN, they could try for RW/helos. Perhaps that is fixed today with Primary grads going to UPT-H? or is UPT-H a separate pipeline still?

I would like to tell the young guys, I never met a single elim from UPT-H. I have an Army LT friend who just grad'd from KOZR (Rucker), and he liked it; but this is Jun 2011.

From what I recall hearing, the 30-37% figure between 84-88 seems accurate. My UNT class had 8 German AF, and they were screened via sim check, like the Frasca, I think. So perhaps these systems have helped reduce attirition numbers for USAF. After all, the FIP prgm in ROTC gave a PLT prospect 12-14 hrs, a C-152 solo, and then one is in a T-37 1.5 yrs later, perhaps doing ok until mid-phase, instruments; in which a PPL and Instrument rating might have helped greatly. To compare: In 1984-6, my USMC/USN (PLC, ROTC) buds got the complete Pvt Pilot license, then went to NASP, flew T-34, and had the RW/helo option, which was nice for them.

As former AF 130 guy, civilian CFII-ATP, and former regional airliner, it is now my step-son's turn for UPT, and he is with AFRes 130s. Other young guys also ask for my input, so that is why I am reflecting these issues 26 yrs later. I want to advise them right, and pay it forward.

Although this is another topic, I wonder how the USN NA & NFOs get along better then USAF Plts & CSOs. I will post that on the CSO thread. Thanks.

Edited June 24, 2011 by burner

[Smokey]

I wanted to post this following the 37% quote. As someone who was at Mather in 1986-7, for both UNT and EWO, I had lots of friends join me there who were from each of the 6 UPT bases (they had their names sewn on vs velcro like SUNT. Some UNT classes were 1/3 of "pre-nav" UPT guys; 3 guys were elim'd on form ck (the last check ride?); and then the one guy from ENJJPT said that his 10 checkrides compared with 6 cks in reg UPT (so he would have been complete, if not for the 10th ck). A few guys were top stick in 37s, then elim'd in 38s. Their gripe was that if they were in USN, they could try for RW/helos. Perhaps that is fixed today with Primary grads going to UPT-H? or is UPT-H a separate pipeline still?

I would like to tell the young guys, I never met a single elim from UPT-H. I have an Army LT friend who just grad'd from KOZR (Rucker), and he liked it; but this is Jun 2011.

From what I recall hearing, the 30-37% figure between 84-88 seems accurate. My UNT class had 8 German AF, and they were screened via sim check, like the Frasca, I think. So perhaps these systems have helped reduce attirition numbers for USAF. After all, the FIP prgm in ROTC gave a PLT prospect 12-14 hrs, a C-152 solo, and then one is in a T-37 1.5 yrs later, perhaps doing ok until mid-phase, instruments; in which a PPL and Instrument rating might have helped greatly. To compare: In 1984-6, my USMC/USN (PLC, ROTC) buds got the complete Pvt Pilot license, then went to NASP, flew T-34, and had the RW/helo option, which was nice for them.

As former AF 130 guy, civilian CFII-ATP, and former regional airliner, it is now my step-son's turn for UPT, and he is with AFRes 130s. Other young guys also ask for my input, so that is why I am reflecting these issues 26 yrs later. I want to advise them right, and pay it forward.

Although this is another topic, I wonder how the USN NA & NFOs get along better then USAF Plts & CSOs. I will post that on the CSO thread. Thanks.

As an 84 UPT grad, I can tell you it was much tougher in those days based on the feedback I get from current UPT IPs when we conduct base visits. You have a bad few days back then, and you were off to Mather or a nuke silo somewhere...........

Navy is not really a great comparison based on the fact it takes them almost twice as long to make a pilot ready for MWS training. I don't know why that is specifically, but sounds like the hammer isn't being delivered as hard like in the AF. I do know that their IPs are not universally qualified day one like a PIT grad. They can't instruct in formation, instrument, etc., day one. That probably adds to the time to get studs through their program. I can only imagine that provides some breathing room for a student with a lower ops tempo where studs get a day off here or there compared to UPT where you knew you were doing one sortie a day minimum.

I don't have the exact stats, but the AF does send some pilot students through Whiting for the T-6......then they come back to the AF to complete phase 3 of UPT. Takes twice as long as it would at Vance, Columbus, etc.

Smokey

[MSE]

So, there have been many rumors and talks by the senior officers here that if you wash out of UPT nowadays, you will be booted from the AF and have to pay everything back (scholarship money, stipends.. dunno about your actual pay)

Anyone confirm/deny or have heard anything relevant???

I know this is an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one. I heard this for the first time the other day. Is this at all true? What I heard was people who washout from training would have to repay the cost of their training and if they went to the Academy, then the cost for that as well. I can't find any info about this anywhere so I'm thinking BS and you would just get assigned to something else. What happens if your there on a Reserve slot?