RC-135 (Rivet Joint) Q&A

[Guest dude]

How is the base housing at Offutt? Do most married people in the flying squadrons prefer to live on or off base?

[Scooter14]

When I was there, the base housing was kind of old. I have heard they are renovating some of the older units, and building some newer ones.

That being said, I lived "on base" (the housing is technically off base, outside the main gate) for almost 5 years. I know it was luck of the draw, but I had the absolute best neighbors in the world. It was the best support system for my family. When I was TDY, I knew my lawn would get mowed, the driveway would get plowed, and my family was safe because all my buds were keeping an eye on things. If any of us wanted to go out for a night, we had 5 sets of babysitters where we could drop off the kiddo. We'd all sit outside in the summer and drink beer and smoke cigars and build a fire and laugh our asses off. I still keep in touch with most of the old neighbors. Just saw one of them in Guam last winter, and stopped in on another family passing through Mildenhall.

No garage, no attic, no basement, but I wouldn't have traded it for anything.

To answer your question, it is totally up to you.

[barney]

I am trying to do as much research as I can on any of the RC-135's. I have an elementary education on some of the basics of the missions of the different types and trying to compare and contrast these aircraft with others that include a Nav or EWO as part of their crew. I also understand that this can be a sensitive subject do to the nature of the beast, so I understand if I recieve little information on the following questions, so here goes.

-What kinds of locations can you get deployed to? Is there any chance of seeing some third world countries up close? How likely is it to get PCS'd over seas if you wanted it?

-I would think that the missions would be fairly boring considering that your in an orbit most of the time. Is there any chances of getting your hands dirty on an RC crew? Any chance of an adrenaline rush that would compare to a low level air drop?

-How about career progression and job security? It seems that these A/C are in high demand, I would think that would open alot of doors in the future.

-What about family life? I've heard the 55th is pretty good about taking care of their people, any expansion on this would be great.

-Also, what is the deal with "advanced beatings" at Fairchild?

I am in the middle of SUNT and looking at my options. I understand if those in the know can't talk to much, but any info would help.

Thanks!

[Scooter14]

I'll answer the questions XtnderBoom so eloquently extracted...

1 - Ditto.

2 - it's a 40+ year old airplane that just spent it's 6000th consecutive day in the AOR. It's also a -135 with a lot of sensitive stuff on it that needs some infrastructure to be effective. You probably won't be burning your shit in a 55 gal drum if that's what you mean by "hands dirty." I did have friends go do non-flying jobs in some real garden spots, however.

3 - Do a google search for Shane Osborne. Read all about what happened to his reconnaissance aircraft. Go to www.silent-warriors.com and draw your own conclusions.

4 - You could be wrong? Nope. You are wrong. I can't go any details on the course other than you will spend an extra week at Fairchild working with some really "hands-on" people. Think of it as an opportunity to get an extra $3.50/day. Again, draw your own conclusions.

[old crow]

I am trying to do as much research as I can on any of the RC-135's...

I am in the middle of SUNT and looking at my options. I understand if those in the know can't talk to much, but any info would help.

Why don't you try talking to the instructors at the 563d? Most are former RC guys who can answer all of the questions you just posted. That would be my first stop if i was "trying to do as much research as I can on any of the RC-135's"

[JVBFLY]

Why don't you try talking to the instructors at the 563d? Most are former RC guys who can answer all of the questions you just posted. That would be my first stop if i was "trying to do as much research as I can on any of the RC-135's"

It really shouldn't be that hard at all to find some RC-135 navs and ewos down there. I know there are at least a half dozen that have gone down there in the last year. There are more on the way. If you need names, send me a PM, but if you so much as mention it down there, someone should be in the room to answer you. As far as advanced beatings...what advanced beatings? Don't worry about that, that is a while down the road, and nothing more than training to accomplish before you become mission ready.

Also, you need to be a little more specific here on whether you are asking about the nav or ewo job. On this airplane, they are totally different animals.

[Cooter]

I'm currently a Tactical Coordinator (Senior EWO / mission commander) onboard the RC and am currnetly in the desert (plan on lots of trips here). Missions are long and sometimes mundane but we provide very unique capes for the war on terror that the bros on the ground love. PM me for info if you wish I'm not sure how much experience the other RC guys on here have on deploymetns etc. There's other locales that we go to that are WAY nicer than going to the desert and a hell of a lot more busy but those trips are reserved mostly for more experinced types or if you just get lucky. Force shaping is tkaing its toll so deployment time is going up (thought we were supposed to get rid of people not serving a purpose...cough...shoe clerks). If you like to deploy and fly its good. If you want to stay home and deploy once a year, well you can do that too, it just screws all your buddies. Any ?'s let me know.

Cooter

PS The war on morale continues out here...NO morale patches period...YGBSM. Good thing I don't pay attention to such things.

[Bergman]

I'm currently a Tactical Coordinator (Senior EWO / mission commander) onboard the RC and am currnetly in the desert (plan on lots of trips here). Missions are long and sometimes mundane

I thought I told you to go Combat Sent or Cobra Ball? I thought I even called up there to put in a good word to help make that happen? Do you believe me now??? Nobody ever f_cking listens.

Barney: There is more to life in the RC-135 than the Rivet Joint. Of all the airplanes at Offutt, that would be my LAST choice. Check out the Combat Sent or Cobra Ball. Much better deployment locations, lower TDY rate, and IMHO a more interesting "EWO-centered" mission.

The RC-135 community has some of the best career broadening opportunities out there, bar none. You could get stationed at Kadena or Mildenhall in one of the attached squadrons, you can go to weapons school, there are a metric ton of NSA, NAIC, nav school, AIA, etc etc jobs out there. That is on the EWO side at least. You only need to read the AF headlines with all the talk of ISR and future missions to see the writing on the wall. ISR is where it's at.

I never believed that until I was assigned to the AFOG post-9/11. I was able to do some work on the CSAF's morning brief, and it utterly amazed me every day. There would be 1 slide (of ~30 or so) that covered ALL airlift and refueling missions...probably 300-400 missions all lumped together. There would then be 1 slide each for the RJ, CS, CB, and U-2....which would equate to about 10 sorties total. Do the math. What was the CSAF interested in? It sure as hell wasn't the 690th KC-135 sortie or C-130 trash haul.

[barney]

Thanks a whole lot for the inteligent insight I recieved from you guys. I have been talking to alot of guys down here and getting good information and alot of my questions answered. I just thought that this would be a good forum to get some other wheels turning. I tried the search function and google and got some stuff but I got alot out of this post as well. Thanks again to the two PM's and if there is any other info in your nogans I'd appreciate it!

Thanks!

[Guest Jackonicko]

Inside the Rivet Joint?

The plethora of officially released photos from inside the RJ would lead me to conclude that the simple facts of where folk sit is no longer sensitive.

When Mike badrocke drew his RC-135W cutaway (probably for one of the Aerospace Publishing partworks, and certainly used in International Air Power Review (Volume 10, pp 69-70) in 2003, it showed just six operator’s positions in a compartment that ‘began’ roughly in line with the main undercarriage.

By the time the IAPR article was published there was a real disparity between the artwork and the text, which listed 21 operator stations, three Ravens, two technicians, and a 16-man communications team, divided between five supervisors and eleven operators.

Jane’s ‘Electronic Mission Aircraft’ went into more detail.

The Baseline/Block 7 'RJ' aircraft provided accommodation for a flight crew of up to five (pilot, co-pilot, relief pilot and two navigators) and a mission crew of between 21 and 27 dependent on specific mission requirements. Within a 21 man crew, the operators were understood to have been divided into ELINT subsystem, in-flight technician and COMINT subsystem groups.

Jane’s listed three ELINT operators ‘next to’ two maintenance techs, with 16 'intelligence operator' (analysis/cryptology) and communications workstations further aft.

It also detailed the expanded crew complement of the latest ‘Baseline Eight’ aircraft, with two extra technicians but two fewer on the Comint team.

The Baseline 8's mission crew comprised three electronic warfare officers, four in-flight maintenance technicians and 14 'intelligence' operators (including linguists). An additional six personnel could be accommodated if required and the configuration's flight crew comprised three pilots and two navigators.

But where do they actually sit?

In a great long row of 21 starboard facing stations ELINT at the front, then technicians, and then COMINT? Or in a row of 19, with the technicians back to back with the ELINT team, facing to port?

These options seems unlikely, looking at recently released internal photos of the RC-135, which seem to show at least one lot of seats arranged across the fuselage – with a bulkhead suggesting that these are aft-facing at the very back of the cabin.

ELINT team?

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...ST-92-04323.JPG

COMINT supervisors?

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...SD-02-00977.JPG

COMINT ops?

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...ST-92-04324.JPG

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/pho...F-1014W-008.JPG

Rear facing – systems maintenance stations?

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...SD-02-00975.JPG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...ST-92-04315.JPG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...ST-92-04316.JPG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Stil...ST-92-04317.JPG

What seating is there for relief crew members and these ‘additional six personnel’ referred to in Jane’s?

Where is the toilet? Where is the galley? Are there any crew rest facilities? If so, where are they and what do they consist of?

[Guest Matt Damon]

Jacko-Those pictures are old as hell. There are a few updates: For example we have LCD monitors now, and new flight jackets, they are pretty sweet. But something of a side note, the interior of the RJ smells like urine and burnt electronics (nature of the beast I suppose). And I think you all might be making the aircraft and its mission more sexy than it really is.

-How about career progression and job security? It seems that these A/C are in high demand, I would think that would open a lot of doors in the future.

Like a few dudes were saying before it is wide open for progression, including Weapons School.

I am still relatively new here to Offutt (I graduated from Randolph last spring) Barney if you have any questions feel free to PM me. But the instructors at the 563rd are probably your best source.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Toro

[Guest Boom]

Are RC/RJ's PACER CRAG modded?

[PET-Shot]

Here are two news segments from FOX News that are Air Force approved. You can see the interior in several of their shots.

No disrespect to Jacko, but lets not get into too much detail here.

[Steve Davies]

Jacko

Welcome to Baseops.net.

Here's one of a series of shots that the AF released not so long ago - this is the only one I can find, as it appears they have pulled the others, but at least it shows the LCD and a couple of crew stations.

If you search these forums, you may find more information. ISTR Scooter talking a while back about the layout of the crew stations in reference to the toilet... it might help MB update the schematic.

[Scooter14]

If you search these forums, you may find more information. ISTR Scooter talking a while back about the layout of the crew stations in reference to the toilet... it might help MB update the schematic.

Steve,

You recall me talking about the crapper on my old jet?

There's a case for OPSEC right there. Now, Al Qaeda knows where the finest ISR crews in the world relieve themselves. The war is now all but lost.

Seriously, though. The tanker as most well know has the lavatory just aft of the flight deck. The RC had "torpedoes" or portable urine tubes up front with a curtain around it and the full service lavatory was in the back. In the past, it was just a honey bucket, but right before I left Offutt, the first one with a no shit (no pun intended) airline type lavatory showed up.

Tankers are now showing up with the new airliner style lavatory as well.

BTW, I love that picture. Especially the big map on the screen. Way to go Air Force.

Boom,

Negative on Pacer Crag. The RJ has a system called Rivet Glass.

As you can see, it's two much bigger MFD's side by side. I never got a chance to fly in one, but it seems a lot better than the tanker. You can pull up all sorts of info, fuel in tanks, etc. You could e-mail via some commercial network and you could even pull op Jepps plates in the test version.

Still kept the nav, though.

[Guest rivet_doobie]

-I would think that the missions would be fairly boring considering that your in an orbit most of the time. Is there any chances of getting your hands dirty on an RC crew? Any chance of an adrenaline rush that would compare to a low level air drop?

Don't know if I'd compare something to low level. Then again, low level was fun but I wouldn't call it an adrenaline rush. It is just flying lower so your allowable time to f*ck up is less. Not that I'm putting it down, cuz like I said, it is pretty fun. There is some excitement when you're supporting troops on the ground and it can feel pretty hectic when you have to rush to a new location to support them.

The real fun is when we do the nat'l tasked recon missions. It's awesome to look over and see two fighters from your target nation off your wing and following you for 20-30 minutes. I've been way closer to foreign fighters than any of my F-15 buds have ever been.

Cool thing about being in the RJ community is that the longer you in the more you start to get into the know of a lot of things. You're exposed to a lot more ops as you could be supporting several on one mission. Plus the security clearance that comes with the job opens up a lot of doors even if you decide to get out the AF. During that nasty force shaping business last year I had several good friends either get canned or voluntarily took the money and ran. The three that kept in touch with me all had jobs before their mandatory seperation date.

[Guest Jackonicko]

Jacko, the photos you linked to look very different to those inside of the RJ published on af.mil in the last few years.

I'm quite relaxed to get the pre-glass layout correct - and don't want to signpost the best free, released photos of the Baseline 8 interior to my competitors!

In answer to the Pacer Crag query, here are both, to be compared side-by-side (or top and bottom!):

[Guest Jackonicko]

Like this .............

[Guest Jackonicko]

I believe that these pics (from a Japanese spotter's site) show that the RC-135 interior is regularly put on public display.

Obviously I hope that this might encourage someone to answer my queries about cabin layout - by PM if necessary.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Jackonicko

[Guest Boom]

What's up with the Pilot/Co individual altitude alerters?

[Guest rivet_doobie]

What's up with the Pilot/Co individual altitude alerters?

There are actually three of them. One each for pilot/copilot/navigator. They can be remote operated, meaning that if someone adjusts one altitude alerter it also adjusts the other two. I guess two up front prevent reaching but the nav does need one as many times they will be the one to set the altitude we're going to.

The RJ's cockpit is named, creatively (note the sarcasm), RIVET GLASS. Unlike PACER CRAG, the RJ's flight management systems are independent, but can copy data from one to the other. Thus if one FMS goes tits up, we can still use the other one. Does make it a little of a pain in the ass since we usually keep the same flight plan on both. Any change to one you gotta do to the other.

Edited February 21, 2008 by rivet_doobie

[Guest Boom]

Do you guys have Datalink/Satphone?

[Guest Matt Damon]

Do you guys have Datalink/Satphone?

The RJ has all of the bells and whistles of a Cadillac then some.

[busdriver]

Jacko, I don't think a layout that just says: "Computer with fancy shit here, and here and here" is a big deal and if that's all you're looking for I'm sure the USAF PA system could get that for you. That said, once you start describing what each of those stations usually does you start getting into the realm of throwing out the puzzle pieces that when put together can build a pretty good picture of classified capabilities. Even as I type this, I can see how number of crew stations could be in that realm. Think of it this way, if you know generally speaking what the RJ's capes are and you know how many crew stations there are, worst case they can all do every job, now you now how many different tasks a single crew can manage and you've built a pretty good picture of what an RJ brings to the fight. The problem is the enemy can use this data against us, and they haven't used anything more than Google to get that info.

You're probably thinking we're being paranoid or unrealistic or just overly sensitive and you may be right. The thing is our lives depend on OPSEC, and being overly secretive makes us seem like weirdos, but at least we know we've done everything we can to keep our brothers and sisters in arms alive. But you being a military specific journo tells me you're probably an enthusiast as well, so you already know all that. So like I said, talk to PA you may get what you want and you may not, but people on this site would be out of their lane to give you info that isn't available from them anyways.

[Guest Jackonicko]

Point taken. Ages ago.

All I'm after is what I'd already have if my editor had sent me to do the press day for the Baseline 8 at Andrews, or had I been at one of the air shows where an RC-135 was 'open to all comers' - or even if the Fox News people had edited their piece differently.

And I'd be as happy with an accurate summation of what it used to be like under Baseline 7 as what it is now, with Baseline 8.

And I'm not concerned with delving into what the different COMINT positions do - the existing knowledge of who does what is enough.

Jane’s ‘Electronic Mission Aircraft’ went into some detail.

The Baseline/Block 7 'RJ' aircraft provided accommodation for a flight crew of up to five (pilot, co-pilot, relief pilot and two navigators) and a mission crew of between 21 and 27 dependent on specific mission requirements. Within a 21 man crew, the operators were understood to have been divided into ELINT subsystem, in-flight technician and COMINT subsystem groups. Taking these in order, the ELINT subsystem group is reported as having been housed in a compartment directly aft of the flight deck and as having been operated by three individuals designated as 'Ravens 1', '2' and '3'. Of these, 'Raven 1' handled the platform's AEELS equipment, while 'Raven 2' acted as the tactical co-ordinator between the architecture's ELINT and COMINT sections and maintained an overall situational awareness picture. 'Raven 3' operated the platform's manual ELINT subsystems. Moving down the fuselage, two in-flight technicians were located in a compartment next to the 'Raven' station and were tasked with monitoring and (where possible) maintaining the functionality of the aircraft's ELINT and COMINT subsystems, taking temperature readings throughout the crew compartment and logging any problems encountered for post-mission repair and maintenance. The remainder of the aircraft's main cabin is thought to have been occupied by a total of 16 'intelligence operator' (analysis/cryptology) and communications workstations that were located to starboard. Starting from the front of this section, crew functions/locations are believed to have been as follows:

Station 5 Reported as having been manned by the aircraft's data link operator who monitored the quality of the aircraft's external communications links

Station 2 Housed an operator who was tasked with data reporting to external customers, allocating communications access to Stations 6 through 16 and controlling the platform's communications radios

Station 1 Manned by an airborne mission supervisor who was responsible for 'collection analysis and co-ordination'

Stations 3 and 4 Occupied by collection supervisors who assigned specific collection tasks to Stations 6 through 16

Stations 6 through 12 COMINT collection positions

Stations 13 and 14 Housed 'special signal' operators who, amongst other things, designated received signals as falling into the 'special' category

Stations 15 and 16 Understood to have been COMINT collection positions.