Civilian ratings after UPT

[Guest rumblefish_2]

I searched for this topic but didn't find much info. Getting ready to graduate and I heard that you can get your instrument and commercial ratings by taking a written test. Is this true? How much extra work would it be to get the CFI rating? I know I probably won't use any of them much in the military, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have them...

[C17Driver]

Not sure about the CFI thing, but getting the instrument and commercial ratings was as easy as writing a check and taking a test.

[Bergman]

At XL, they offered the Commercial/Instrument/Multi-Engine (w/type rating for T-1 folks) course for $125. Show up some Saturday morning, study as long as you like (a pared-down FAA question bank), take a practice test, then take the actual test.

Assuming you pass (I was told no one has ever failed), they'll give you the test results sheet you need. Take that, along with a letter from your commander verifying your flight experience (this was provided to every graduating student "automatically") to the local FSDO (San Antonio for XLers) and they'll hook you up.

On a side note, the new FAA licenses are pretty sweet...credit card type with a pic of Orville and Wilbur on the back!

[C17Driver]

For the guys at VN, no class. Just pay for the test, something like $70 at the place we were taking it. They had a handout of the test bank and we could just study from that. They gave you the sheet with the results from the test and you took that down to the local FSDO office and applied for the ratings. Two months later I got my card in the mail.

[Tex]

Does this apply to the fighter/bomber guys as well or is it strictly for the heavies and thus T-1s?

[Guest riceowl63]

Yes, I've heard it applies for fighter/bomber guys (I've never done it my self, but I'm sure someone can back me up). I don't think you get the muti-engine though, as the T-6 and T-38 both have center line thrust (even though the -38 has two engines). I don't know if flying the tweet qualifies as multi engine.

[C17Driver]

The T-38 guys receive a centerline thrust restriction.

[Flare]

I did it(sts) when I finished up here at Sheppard.. the process was pretty similar to what everyone else described. If you fly the T-38, you will get AMEL (airplane multi-engine land) rating with a center-line thrust restriction.

Also, ditto what Bergman said about the new licenses!

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

If you go the T-38 track, you cannot get the multi-engine rating based on your experience with the Tweet.

The Tweets got two engines... Two engines = multi-engine.

Sure this is true, but it doesn't count for your ratings.

My understanding, although slim, is that the UPT Navigation checkrides in the T-1 and the Navigation rides in the T-38 count for the curriculum that the FAA presents. The Tweet/T-6 has none of the requirements that the FAA mandates.

Therefore, the only difference between a Talon grad and a Tone grad is that you get the multi-engine in the T-1 and the T-38, and the centerline thrust restriction in the T-38. You would have to get a multi-engine rating with no restrictions to go and fly a *true* 2 engine plane

I can remember reading the actual width apart on the engines to count as multiengine, and if memory serves correct 96" or 7 ft rings a bell. I do know for a fact it is based upon how much yaw is required to oversome an engine inoperative situation though (for a 2 engine aircraft).

[ 31. May 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: C-21 Pilot ]

[Guest Jer105]

The multi engine rating is for aircraft with non-centerline thrust, not dealing with two engines. The multi rating is mostly dealing with an engine failing and the adverse yaw that comes with it. If the aircraft has centerline thrust even when an engine fails, then it will fly pretty much the same with one or two engines, except for the power, so a multi-engine rating wouldn't apply.

[Gravedigger]

Sweeeet, you can fly skymasters with a centerline thrust rating. I want one!

[Flare]

Here is the real deal on the center-line thrust stuff. From http://av-info.faa.gov/data/staticdocs/8710-3c.pdf

D. Center Thrust. A certificate issued for a multiengine class or type rating based on a practical test in a multiengine airplane which has no published minimum controllable airspeed (V MC ) must bear the limitation, "AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND - LIMITED TO CENTER THRUST." (See figure 5-8.)

(1) An To have a center thrust limitation removed from an airman certificate, an applicant must demonstrate competency in an airplane with asymetrical thrust.

(2) The civilian and military aircraft listed below have no V MC established by the manufacturer. Other aircraft not listed, and

for which there is no published data on V MC , are also restricted to center thrust only.

(a) C-336 Cessna Skymaster

(B) C-337 Cessna Super Skymaster

© T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye

(d) T-37 Cessna 318

(e) T-38 Northrop Talon

(f) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom

(g) F-111 General Dynamics F111

(h) F-18A Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas Hornet

(i) A6-E Grumman American Intruder

(j) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II

(k) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle

(3) The center thrust restriction is not placed on the airman certificate when the airplane has a V MC established in its type certificate data sheet or published in its approved flight manual.

(4) If the holder of a certificate with the center thrust restriction can show that the limitation was issued in error, the limitation can be removed upon application by the airman. A new temporary airman certificate is issued without the center thrust limitation.

(5) The FAA may add or delete aircraft models from the list in subparagraphs D(2)(a) through (k) of this section, as necessary. The examiner should consult the supervising FSDO if there is any question whether or not an airplane requires a center thrust limitation. If necessary, the FSDO may route the inquiry to FAA Headquarters, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Airman

Certification Branch, AFS-840.

(6) In the case of an applicant who requests issuance of a multiengine class or type rating in an aircraft not listed in subparagraphs D(2)(a) through (k) of this section and for which the

manufacturer has not provided evidence of a V MC , the examiner should refer the applicant to the appropriate FSDO. The FSDO will forward all available data to FAA headquarters, General Aviation and Commercial Division, AFS-800, for review and determination whether any limitations are necessary.

[backseatdriver]

So what does the centerline thrust restriction mean exactly? Can someone who goes through 38s and gets their multi-engine rating with the restriction not go fly in a multi-engine at their local FBO? Or do they just have to do a couple training rides and then they're good to go?

[ 02. June 2004, 15:57: Message edited by: backseatdriver ]

[Flare]

No..they're limited to multi-engine aircraft with centerline thrust, so you couldn't go and rent an Aztec, Duchess, Baron, etc.... To do so you would have to get the restriction removed by either 1)taking a checkride with an FAA flight examiner just as a normal civilian would, or 2)take a Air Force Form 8 checkride in an aircraft not listed above (probably the most likely for 38 type guys would be the ones who go to a B-1, B-2, or B-52), and then take that new form to a FSDO again---then they would be able to give you the unrestricted rating.

[Guest C21OneDay]

I have a buddy about to finish UPT and she told me about some of her buds from T-1's going to take some tests to get a ton of IFR/type ratings with little effort/money after UPT. I was hoping someone had some info on where to take these tests, the ratings you could get, how much the tests cost..... Also, what's up with some gouge for these tests? I'm a newbie with only 70 hours commissioning next year, so take it easy on me.

DET 590--- How 'bout them HEELS!

[ViperStud]

You have to take a written test, all multiple choice. It's some kind of military only thing specifically for people who have their wings, forget what it's called. Anyway you turn that in along with your pilot rating certificate (copy), a log of your hours (from flight records) and a letter from your sq/cc saying you are indeed a pilot. Give it all to your local FSDO (flight standards district office?) and you get your commercial license and instrument rating. Fighter guys get a centerline thrust restriction I think that's the only catch. Anyone know more of the nuts and bolts?

[Guest C21OneDay]

"Centerline thrust restriction?" Clear as mud, what's that?

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by C21OneDay:

"Centerline thrust restriction?" Clear as mud, what's that?

Means jew can't fly multi-engine A/C with motors

on de wings wiff out mo quizes.

The other post about getting a piece of paper that says you have commercial, ME land, CLT Rest

I think is correct and WORTH the effort.

[Bergman]

At XL the "class" was $125 and you did NOT have to have your wings to take it. My class took it about a week before graduation. You will need to get a letter from the Sq/CC with certain verbage on it about meeting the PIC requirement or whatever (the squadrons are familiar with this letter, so when your class leader asks for it they will know what he/she is talking about). You get to study the question bank for as long as you want, then go take the test. When we took it, no one had ever failed. Perhaps someone has since, but I doubt it.

Once you get the paperwork from the test center you will take it to the local FSDO and they will give you a temporary license. Commerical, instrument, multi-engine (centerline thrust restricted for T-38 folks) plus the MU-300/BE-400 type ratings for T-1 grads.

A guy in my unit spent about 5-6 hours in a Beech Baron getting his centerline thrust restriction removed, FWIW.

Lastly, a question for the more astute FAA scholars out there. On my ticket it lists Commercial and Instrument ratings only under the 'Multi-Engine' section (I was a single-engine land pilot prior to UPT). My understanding is that I will need to take another checkride to get the commercial and instrument privelages added to my single-engine land rating. Is that correct??

[Guest FCI]

Go to this link and scroll to the bottom.

http://www.flyenid.com/ace-testing.html

It will show you the ratings you qualify for by the aircraft you fly in UPT.

[Guest JArcher00]

If you go fly the TC-12 in Corpus, you can get a BE-200 type rating for an aircraft that does not require one in the passenger configuration but has one issued for the cargo configured aircraft. Just a fun one for people to question you on and then prove they have no idea what they are talking about.

[ 14. April 2005, 07:48: Message edited by: RedDog ]

[Chuck17]

Bergman,

YES, you will have to. I asked the same question of the FSDO guys, mostly for you all...

I left SLU with a Commercial, Multi-engine Instrument ticket, but I got the SE, then the Inst, then the Comm, then the Multi. Thus, my last check was to add the multi, but also to cert me as a ME-Com-Inst pilot. After UPT, I only got the type rating. If you had an SE rating prior to UPT, then added on ME-Com-Inst ratings, in order to fly a on a SE-Com-Inst ticket, youd have to get another check, from my understanding.

Chuck

[Bergman]

Originally posted by FCI:

Go to this link and scroll to the bottom.

http://www.flyenid.com/ace-testing.html

It will show you the ratings you qualify for by the aircraft you fly in UPT.

There is one error on that link. It has the T-1 down as having a centerline thrust restriction as well as the -38. That is incorrect. I don't know when, but the FAA has reclassified the T-1/B400 as non-centerline thrust.

Thanks for the info, Chuck. Guess I will have to get back into the bug smasher training routine if I want to use my instrument ticket for civvie flying.

[Sneedro]

Guess I will have to get back into the bug smasher training routine if I want to use my instrument ticket for civvie flying.

Not exactly...you will be a Comm ME pilot with an instrument rating. With that being said, you will only have private pilot privileges when it comes to SE flying. Basically, the instrument rating is a rating and not a certificate so it applies to all your certificates regardless off commercial or private pilot. This means you can fly civilian in the wx in a SE or ME a/c. The only thing you cant do is make money flying SE airplanes. Not planning flying SE for hire?? Dont need to go get the SE commercial certificate. Either way, it is a very easy checkride and doesnt take long at all should you decide to get it anyways. Like Chuck, I also had this situation in college so if you have any other questions I can try and help clear things up.

[Guest JArcher00]

Not if they fly the T-6. Then it is Commercial on both.