15 hours ago, frog said:

It’s not even close to the same thing.

Yes, the fire crew is part of the accident chain and will bear some responsibility.

They are also on a very strict response clock, responding to an emergency that they don’t have all of the details on, working multiple frequencies, in a vehicle with poor visibility, in a vehicle formation, at night.

Again, that isn’t an excuse for one of the many failures in the accident chain. However, glossing over situational and human factors issues isn’t going to make things safer. This is more than just a “too lazy to look” moment.

It’s a tough situation all around. Everyone needs to take the lessons learned, integrate them into training, and be better.

100% disagree. This line of thought of "I gotta get there right now because its an emergency" is almost certainly a root cause of the pilots' deaths. All first responders should have the first duty to "do no harm" just like doctors. This is not the first time that a fire truck in a hurry has killed innocent people on at an American airport. Fire trucks do not have that poor of visibility and they can see more than the pilots can from the cockpit windows. The lights are a problem, but that should only make them more cautious, not less.

Part of the emergency call on the red line is the nature of the emergency. The driver of the fire truck either knew or should have known that this was much more in the lines of an annoyance emergency than a plane on fire.

6 hours ago, Smokin said:

100% disagree. This line of thought of "I gotta get there right now because its an emergency" is almost certainly a root cause of the pilots' deaths. All first responders should have the first duty to "do no harm" just like doctors. This is not the first time that a fire truck in a hurry has killed innocent people on at an American airport. Fire trucks do not have that poor of visibility and they can see more than the pilots can from the cockpit windows. The lights are a problem, but that should only make them more cautious, not less.

Part of the emergency call on the red line is the nature of the emergency. The driver of the fire truck either knew or should have known that this was much more in the lines of an annoyance emergency than a plane on fire.

I’m not saying how it should be, I’m saying how it is. Relax the response time requirements and don’t hold people accountable for missing them if you want to go in the direction you suggest.

And, the visibility from a fire truck absolutely sucks except out the front window. The driver has very little visibility out the side window.

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by frog

10 hours ago, frog said:

I’m not saying how it should be, I’m saying how it is. Relax the response time requirements and don’t hold people accountable for missing them if you want to go in the direction you suggest.

And, the visibility from a fire truck absolutely sucks except out the front window. The driver has very little visibility out the side window.

It is a tough situation, stepping back what do fire trucks do when responding to a ground emergency...they have their lights on, they have the right of way but so they blast through a red light without looking? The situation is terrible all around.

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

It is a tough situation, stepping back what do fire trucks do when responding to a ground emergency...they have their lights on, they have the right of way but so they blast through a red light without looking? The situation is terrible all around.

To be fair to the firefighters in this incident, they blasted through a green light without looking. That's why it's so absurd that the airport with simultaneously operating crossing runways didn't have the automated system for preventing runway incursions installed at the crossing points.

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

To be fair to the firefighters in this incident, they blasted through a green light without looking. That's why it's so absurd that the airport with simultaneously operating crossing runways didn't have the automated system for preventing runway incursions installed at the crossing points.

Brother in law is a Deputy Chief of police and I have ridden with him on many occasions over the past 30 years. Even with a green light he checks when blasting through an intersection. You bigger point it valid, this is a terrible set up with the runways...numerous opportunities to break the chain of events and a lot of blame to go around.