CAS

[Beaver]

Ok, time to have an actual tactical discussion and leave the foot rubs to the SNAPs.

CAS platforms: did you know that when a JTAC (ETAC, TACP) is giving you a real world type 2 control, there is a distinct possibility that he is sitting in a brigade command post 100 miles from the target?

[Guest Animal]

Some things never surprise me.

So theoretically it is possible that the JTAC is sitting in a room without a window speaking to an aircrew who is also sitting in a room without a window aboard an airborne CAS platform? HA!

Anybody want to go Blue to Green?

ANIMAL

[ 27. July 2005, 21:14: Message edited by: Animal ]

[viperpunk]

So what is he basing his clearance on? Doesn't he need to see the target but not the aircraft under type 2?

[Beaver]

No, he only needs reliable intelligence on the target. That can be imagery or a relay from somebody with eyes one (forward observer).

[Guest Rainman A-10]

As long as he can point out the friendlies and the target I don't care where he is.

[Toro]

Interesting, didn't realize that. That seems to contradict the definition of Type 2 (from JP 3-09.3.

Type 1 control will be used when the risk assessment requires them to visually acquire the attacking aircraft and the target under attack.

Type 2 control will be used when the JTAC desires control of individual attacks but assesses that either visual acquisition of the attacking aircraft or target at weapons release is not possible or when attacking aircraft are not in a position to acquire the mark/target prior to weapons release/launch.

Type 3 control may be used when the tactical risk assessment indicates that CAS attack imposes low risk of fratricide.

The way I read it, and the way we've always been briefed is that the JTAC has to either be able to see me or the target. So you're saying that his method of 'seeing the target' is through some sort of relay?

We did a good deal of Type 3 (which I guess may have been Type 2) with guys who were obviously going off some sort of chart for our talk on. One of the scariest experiences was when a two ship from our squadron was being told they were cleared to drop on what appeared to be a couple of no-threat huts in the middle of nowhere. The radios were totally trashed - pilot talking to CAOC on the main, WSO talking to JTAC in the aux - and neither sources were apparently talking to each other because the aircrew were getting conflicting clearances. In the end, they seem to have everything sorted when two A-10s flew through their targeting pod field of view at low altitude - turns out the A-10s were talking to a totally different JTAC for the same target. KIO KIO KIO - what a clusterf*ck.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Toro:

In the end, they seem to have everything sorted when two A-10s flew through their targeting pod field of view at low altitude - turns out the A-10s were talking to a totally different JTAC for the same target. KIO KIO KIO - what a clusterf*ck.

Sounds to me like OIF standard. The whole damn war was a big playground pick-up game of basketball in which there was no real control...unless you were physically over a known target, getting shot at, and waiting for permission from 'dad' to drop your ord. Then there was so much damn close control it was unbelievable.

I had a FAC of some sort, after giving me a lengthy talk-on to a building with a big meeting of what *he* told *me* were Saddam Fedayeen, as me "so, confirm those guys are hostile?"

I just about came unglued on the radio..."you want ME, up here at 15K, to PID hostile troops for *you* on the ground??"

Same situation...he was nowhere near the actual location, but giving a talk-on to a target he couldn't see based on some type of reference material other than actually being there.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

You have to be careful. Some guys take whatever the JTAC says as gospel. That would be a mistake. Huge mistake, unless I'm your JTAC since I don't make mistakes.

My OIF experience was probably a little different than most. It helps to know and train and live with the JTACs you are going to be working with every night. It's differernt when you know the name of your JTAC as soon as you hear his callsign or his voice. It's also different when the casualties come back to your base and get stabilized in a hospital tent 100 meters from your tent. There was far less freestyle and far more danger close kind of work.

Even when they were close they often couldn't see the targets detail as well as we could from overhead with a targeting pod. That's why you need to be helpful, not hungry. Being hungry just tempts fate and you may kill someone that doesn't deserve it. It doesn't get any more wrong than that.

We had to slow the JTACs down at the beginning of the war. They wanted everything destroyed and everyone killed. We didn't do that if we couldn't PID it ourselves as hostile. Many times the guys on the ground would be talking to the folks 6-9 minutes after they had told us to kill them. We know you're excited boys but lets not overreact. DA hit, no problem...POO PID. Stumble up on a family in their car, big problem...they are stupid to be out here driving around at night but the penalty for their stupidity should not be death. They are human souls, just like my family.

We also had to make sure the JTACs were really communicating with one another. We had a couple incidents where we slammed GBU-12s into buldings in an urban environment only to have another JTAC come up on the radio and ask who was dropping near his team. From that night on the standard check in was followed by "You need to tell us where all the friendlies in this vicinity are, not just you and your team. I can standby until you sort it out."

Again, I don't care where the JTAC is as long as he has valid targets and can deconflict the freindly positions. I don't need him to have LOS eyes on the target.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Again, I don't care where the JTAC is as long as he has valid targets and can deconflict the freindly positions. I don't need him to have LOS eyes on the target.

I guess, stupid non Hog-guy-me, I thought the "terminal" part of JTAC implied being somewhere close to the target.

[Guest SATCOM]

I have conducted Type I and II controls in OEF and OIF. Being the only boots-on-ground person so far to respond in this forum, please allow me to digress. If I call up pre-planned 1972's, I have spent time actually looking at the target. In OIF, I was living with the Kurds before the war started and had good intel on Iraqi Army targets. Good intel meant that at night I changed into Kurdish clothing and (at great risk to me and my team) reconn'd front line targets. I would personally Laze those very targets and work up a detailed, prioritized target list. In excruciating detail I would sit up till late hours in a mud-caked safe house and chronologically account for the MGRS/Lat Long and pictures of said targets.

I take my duties seriously and never "wanted everything destroyed and everyone killed" as told above. Even when I was being mortared, and ran around urinating on myself, I took great care to ensure that my troops-in-contact call destroyed ONLY the Iraqi Infantry fools trying to end my existence. When the situation warrented it, I made a few Type II calls. We had strict kill boxes where I was (in the north) and I knew where my friendlies were 24/7. 90% of my calls were in front of my face, witnessed by me and double-checked by the team (SEAL/Army/OGA).

A lot of problems arise when inexperienced JTAC's are sent out with not enough calls or seasoning. Also, just prior to 9/11, I personally dealt with a lethargic fighter CAS community in the ANG/Reserve. I actually had a F-16 pilot tell me on the strike freq that he no time to play because he had a Delta flight to get to. He was merely checking off his one point five at FL 350. OEF pretty much changed all that, I think we'll all agree.

The answer is more training and better comms. Data link technology and improved Lasers are improving the odds also.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Hacker:

I guess, stupid non Hog-guy-me, I thought the "terminal" part of JTAC implied being somewhere close to the target.

I think it normally does but it is not required.

The JTAC's #1 priority is not killing targets. His #1 priority is protection of the friendlies. If he can do that from his tent with a MAP and a picture...fine. The biggest problem with not having eyes on (unless the picture is real time) is not being able to confirm CDE. In that case, the pilot must be responsible for PID and CDE.

In fact, all the responsibility falls on the pilots. Some guys like to talk about the JTAC buying the bomb but that's total bullsh!t. Don't drop it if you can't pay for it. Simple.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by SATCOM:

I take my duties seriously and never "wanted everything destroyed and everyone killed" as told above.

I'm sure you do. All the guys I've worked with in OEF and OIF took their jobs seriously. They were the sh!t AND they were my friends. I am not bad rapping them or any other ground JTAC here.

All I'm saying is that sometimes guys on the ground get excited and the pilots need to slow it down if it starts to feel a little out of control.

I will also add that often pilots show up and just want to clean the wings. That is a dangerous attitude. They need to be told to safe 'em up and RTB.

[Beaver]

The answer is more training

You are absolutely right there. The only problem is money. Us poor TACP guys don't get the money or support we need to train effectively.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

I'm sure you do. All the guys I've worked with in OEF and OIF took their jobs seriously. They were the sh!t AND they were my friends. I am not bad rapping them or any other ground JTAC here.

All I'm saying is that sometimes guys on the ground get excited and the pilots need to slow it down if it starts to feel a little out of control.

I will also add that often pilots show up and just want to clean the wings. That is a dangerous attitude. They need to be told to safe 'em up and RTB.

[Guest SATCOM]

Rainman:

You speak volumes! Sorry if I gave an impression of doubting your observations. We're all in this together and I have nothing but R-E-S-P-E-C-T for you that bring the goods. Truthfully, I have had a few moments of "excited voice syndrome" even after 20 plus years of doing this. I wasn't really afraid of the enemy, I was afraid of:

A. Looking bad in front of the team.

B. Hurting friendlies

I'm sure that we've authenticated each other somewhere before.

Beaver: Keep on your chain to get you the training needed. There are GWOT funds set aside for CAS trips. We're lucky in that there's a CAS range nearby for our team.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by SATCOM:

Truthfully, I have had a few moments of "excited voice syndrome" even after 20 plus years of doing this.

Everyone gets excited, especially when they are getting shot at. I listen to guys tell stories about doing "TIC" all the time. I ask them what the first words the JTAC or team on the ground said when they checked in and if the guy doesn't remember I know he has not yet done TIC. In a true TIC the first thing the JTAC says when you check in isn't "go ahead with your lineup" or "say position from CP 542" or "call ready for your first 9-Line"...it's "ROGER THAT WARTHOG, YOU'RE CLEARED HOT!" If the target and the friendlies aren't both in the HUD FOV when you hammer down, you haven't done TIC. TIC is when you have to be right or you have to go home.

Rule #1 for CAS...First do no harm.

Originally posted by SATCOM:

I'm sure that we've authenticated each other somewhere before.

I'd bet a case of beer on it. Hopefully I didn't let you down.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

the pilot must be responsible for PID and CDE.

I still get nervous ticks when I think about the comm I heard every time..."With PID and CDE, cleared to release."

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Hacker:

I still get nervous ticks when I think about the comm I heard every time..."With PID and CDE, cleared to release."

[Beaver]

Satcom,

They're footing the bill for the trips, but my pilot brethren seem to have forsaken me when I call up looking for air.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Beaver:

Satcom,

They're footing the bill for the trips, but my pilot brethren seem to have forsaken me when I call up looking for air.

Where are you going and who are you calling?

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

"...work it in".

No can do.

[Beaver]

We usually go to Dare County Range in NC, Atterbury in IN, Avon Park FL, Razorback Range AR, Camp Shelby, Ft Stewart.

Our scheduler is on the phone everyday begging squadrons to come work with us.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Hacker:

"With PID and CDE, cleared to release."

Amen. I normally told the CAOC "Sorry, unable. I'm leaving your freq and I'll check in on RTB if I have anything left just in case you guys can figure it out yourselves". I figured if was that it important they could find a way to do the PID and CDE on some POS target they got from smoking the Predator crack pipe. I'm was in the air to find some guys on the ground that actually need my ordnance, not waste time and our nation's treasure like I'm flying a FSWD sortie on some TAC range back in the states.

That's the bullsh!t comm from the CAOC wanting to wash their hands of any responsibility after they get pilots all lathered up with an "investigate" call. The JAGs came up with that crap for the O-6+ that wanted to run the push button war, thinly veiled as TST. I hate that whole clown act. For example, the bombers are relieved of any of the PID/CDE responsibility but you are going to hang by your nuts if you screw up because you have a window and a targeting pod. Bullsh!t.

Unfortunately, we have raised a bunch of pilots who think it is normal to ask permission to hit targets in a killbox because they want help with PID and CDE. Guys found what they thought were targets in killbox and they would call and ask permission to engage. Is it a target or not? We sent you to that killbox to find valid targets and expend ordnance...go for it. The pilots were doing this because they wanted the CAOC to tell them it was ok so they didn't get in trouble for making a mistake. Sad.

JTACs should never be doing that unless its some sort of killbox short of the FSCL Type 3 friendlies no factor scenario where you are just checking in as a formality. They don't do that for a real TIC, it's obvious to everyone (at least everyone who can look out the window of their jet) that people are shooting at one another. Once you sort the friendlies you can just use gun barrel orientation to target the bad guys. The problem is often having weapons that can be employed that close.

[Mitch Weaver]

For example, the bombers are relieved of any of the PID/CDE responsibility but you are going to hang by your nuts if you screw up because you have a window and a targeting pod. Bullsh!t.

We see this everyday. If there's a no-sh!t TIC with casualties and we're the only game in town, then we'll drop. Otherwise, they'll wait for guys who can put eyes on the target to show up. It's frustrating for us, but I sense that the fear of calling a GBU-31 targeted with JTAC-passed coordinates PID is strong enough now to warrant waiting the extra time for a hog or gunship- and if the guy on the ground can live with that then it's ok w/me.

[Guest SATCOM]

Originally posted by Beaver:

We usually go to Dare County Range in NC, Atterbury in IN, Avon Park FL, Razorback Range AR, Camp Shelby, Ft Stewart.

Our scheduler is on the phone everyday begging squadrons to come work with us.

Atterbury is the closest range to my unit. We have a serious relationship with the Indiana ANG. The best thing to do (in my humble opinion) is to go to Atterbury and stay about a week. You can do this on-the-cheap by staying in billeting (ten bucks a night). Each day at 0700, the range brief is held. The day's air is discussed and AFAC upgrades, GFAC calls etc are detailed. Battle Creek A-10's and Illinois F-16's are prevelant. Sorties are to be had. You must be proactive and call the various units and coord with the flight lead.

Do not take 300 swinging dicks with you, as this cuts into the quality of training. The RSO's in the range tower are all professional and will gladly give you debriefs on your talk-on's etc. They also have a tape-recorder that records everything, you can use to listen to your um-aahhh's on the mike.

Last but not least, ensure you thank everyone for their assistance. I know this sounds gay, but pro's remember pro's, not turds.