I've been reading a lot on here lately about non-continuation for passed over majors in the flying arena, and this is a topic addressed to the rated community only. I would love to see the reaction and hear the great stories of individuals who choose to be the best in the jet, and forego all the queep. A few questions to consider.

- How did this individual affect morale in the squadron, and were they actually credible?

- Would they have been better leaders if they had promoted based on flying ability and officership instead of exec strats and PME completion (in-res selection, etc...)?

- Would it have been better for these individuals to help "run the company" for a while and sacrifice that time in the jet to make our service better?

You get the basic idea, but I am more curious about how these individuals were perceived by their peers, and also their leadership. If anyone is interested, I'm sure a lot of other people would love to hear specific stories about these dudes that choose "to do" instead of "to be".

I know of a KC-135 driver (Active Duty) who just retired in April as a Captain. Not too many Captains with a wreath on their star. Due to whatever reason he never did SOS, was always offered continuation. Retired with 5,000+ of flying, did the typical CP/AC/IP/EP/AIS, etc.

He affected morale of the squadron because he wasn't afraid of anything, he didn't have anything to lose careerwise. He'd been in the USAF/Pilot longer than the DO and Sq/CC. He had seen everything in the book, every student, inspection, every trend item (positive and negative). He was a big picture EP and a very demanding IP and it made the crewmembers he flew with want to be the best. I saw him tell Sq/CC's they were making mistakes, kick people out of upgrade, and utilize the tools that we have in our training and evaluation program that people are afraid to use now these days.

I don't necessarily know if he would've been a better leader had he been promoted, I think his position gave him unique positional power and by being promoted he would be forced into leadership jobs that he probably wouldn't been as successful in.

Most everyone in the OG took his word for gold. However, he did love telling Sq/CC's that he was only a Captain and that those projects and additional queep should be given to those FGO's and young CGO's that need it for OPR fodder.

Edited July 10, 201114 yr by Crew Report

Sounds like an Army warrant.

Sounds like an Army warrant.

Beat me too it, that's exactly what I was going to say

Line up for night one is not the crusty old passed over dude.

Line up for night one is not the crusty old passed over dude.

This. It's definitely the dude with all of his joint credit done and PME completed. No one wants a guy flying on night one who doesn't know Tuckman's stages of group development.

Delete this thread before someone gets hurt with such nonsense.

This. It's definitely the dude with all of his joint credit done and PME completed. No one wants a guy flying on night one who doesn't know Tuckman's stages of group development.

Delete this thread before someone gets hurt with such nonsense.

The commander leads the line-up for night one. He should be the most full up pilot in the unit and be more capable of leading night one than any other pilot in the unit.

I have been in squadrons where this was true (and no one even wondered who would be leading night one) and where it was not (and everyone wondered who would be leading).

The former was absolutely awesome and the latter totally sucked.

Ok, here you go. I'll do my best to decipher exactly what you are asking me to respond to.

Forego all the queep: Not possible and not mature. Get it done or shut up about it. Queep is a pain in the ass but it is required if you want to lead. You are letting the team down if you are a good leader but are unwilling to do the queep. Doing queep (getting the squares filled so you can compete for promotion) does not somehow turn a great pilot into an ass kisser. Quite the contrary, it makes them a good team player who is willing to sacrifice something and take a bite out of the shit sandwich in order to make an impact down the road. Not doing the queep really just means you don't care if you don't get promoted and you don't want to lead.

promoted based on flying ability and officership : People should be promoted based on those things and I believe they are for the most part. An officer needs to be pragmatic and mature enough to know that the system just can't care so much about them personally that it will stop and watch while they effortlessly fly the shit out of their jet. They have to kick ass in the jet and get the squares filled if they want to be promoted. It is simply one of the rules of the game. Deal with it or vote with your feet. This is an age old issue.

Would it have been better for these individuals to help "run the company": Only if they wanted to. There are people who A) want to lead but don't have the skill, B) have the skill but don't want to lead and C) people who have both the skill and desire to lead and are willing to put up with the bullshit the system puts on them.

There are a wide variety of ways to learn how the staffs at different levels work that don't all include spending a bunch of time on the staff. Remember, Robin Olds spent plenty of time on the staff.

You get the basic idea, but I am more curious about how these individuals were perceived by their peers, and also their leadership: In my personal experience it depended on their attitude. Shitting on the current leadership got them a small amount of respect but it mostly made people see them as regretful and petty. The absence of flying skill is a show stopper in terms of a pilot/leader's credibility but being good in the jet only gets you so far.

There are a wide variety of ways to learn how the staffs at different levels work that don't all include spending a bunch of time on the staff. Remember, Robin Olds spent plenty of time on the staff.

Rainman, Rhino, great discussion so far. I ran into a career C-130 pilot in San Antonio International Airport a while back and we had a really great time chatting about all that the USAF has to offer. I attribute the "you have to help run the company" line to him, and it really made sense when I was discussing the Old's bio with him. I think good guys on a staff make a difference, and they can really do that by having a good attitude while there. Most of the people I have talked to who have commanded were on a staff of some sort, ended up being an exec, and then ended up getting command. You have to "play the game" sometimes, but you do not have to kiss ass while doing so.

This thread and the OP were designed to get stories about people who chose "to do" rather than "to be". I have seen a squadron commander destroy two squadrons in different positions and still promote BTZ. I could say the system is broken, manning sucked, or any other excuse, but that does not help at all. As Rainman said, and I loosely quote, "queep is necessary in some form or fashion". I agree wholeheartedly and if you want to stay competitive these days, get that bullshit masters and get your correspondence PME done. Brave your way through it, and see if you can influence change later one down the line.

I hope others will share this story and I really hope members of this board will have stories told about them, and the way that they were awesome in the jet, yet good dudes at heart. If my post is a little off in flow, remember these words "I don't drink it for the taste; I drink it for the numbness in my face."

There are clearly two different methods at play here:

Method 1 - Stand up for what you believe in at your current level and fall on your sword over any issue that goes against those beliefs. The system isn't worth supporting and should be burned down from within in order to enact radical changes.

Method 2 - Play the game to a certain extent but don't lose who you are. Kissing ass is not necessary but job performance is, and the rewards are often greater opportunities to help improve the system from within.

Of course these are my characterizations, but it's how I read what's being said here. One of those sounds like good advice...and is the path most "good dudes" I know have followed. As much as it's easy to complain about the clerks and the practice bleeding and the BS and the queep, everyone who I look up to has both a sh*t ton of combat hours and expertise in the jet as well as has pushed through and completed those queepy thing in order to continue serving and to do good things for the service and the country at the next highest pay grade. They have, in my view, done some outstanding service for their country without taking the Boyd-inspired maverick approach to career planning.

To me, that rare warrant-officer-like flyer who said to the game and shot from the hip while flying the line and retiring as a captain to me is just not a sustainable model to follow and that path is fraught with both personal and professional peril as well as the big gamble of hurting your unit. It would make more sense to have a WO career path so you could have the benefits of the no-nonsense, non-careerist technical officer without having captains burn their careers down when if they are truly good dudes, they could do more good at higher levels of responsibility later down the road.

There are clearly two different methods at play here:

Method 1 - Stand up for what you believe in at your current level and fall on your sword over any issue that goes against those beliefs. The system isn't worth supporting and should be burned down from within in order to enact radical changes.

Method 2 - Play the game to a certain extent but don't lose who you are. Kissing ass is not necessary but job performance is, and the rewards are often greater opportunities to help improve the system from within.

Your summations are spot on. The Rainman method of "do the queep to try to make things better for the dudes that follow" is exactly what every leader should do. In the long run, falling on your sword does nothing but give the fallee a false sense of moral superiority that he can lord over everyone else. That is not to say that at some point you may find something so morally reprehensible to yourself that the only right choice is to vote with your feet and get out.

Your method is absolutely moronic because you will never be in a position to actually make a difference. That is what I'm saying.

Your method is absolutely moronic because you will never be in a position to actually make a difference. That is what I'm saying.

I dunno, man...sometimes you have to take a stand. Boyd did, and yes he never made it about colonel, but would you rather be a colonel who's name is still revered by many, or an ass-kisser with stars who is just another cog in the wheel?

Edited July 12, 201114 yr by 08Dawg

I dunno, man...sometimes you have to take a stand. Boyd did, and yes he never made it about colonel, but would you rather be a colonel who's name is still revered by many, or an ass-kisser with stars who is just another cog in the wheel?

I think what he's saying is that if captains and majors are "falling on their swords" they will never ben in a position to affect organizational change in the AF.

Everyone can make a difference, regardless of rank (to address your post before you edited it). But that "difference" is generally pretty limited for young guys. To change a 300,000+ person, multi-billion dollar organization you have to have more rank. Guys who fall on their swords as cpatains and majors don't ever get to the point where they can influence the big picture.

You don't know what you don't see...dudes are risking EVERYTHING to pass the message higher. Look at the O-6 Command Selection Board two years ago...the board did not have enough people "volunteer" to be considered because people are fed up and tired. Something like 54% of the BPZ dudes declined consideration for command!

Wow. UFB.

Olds was able to throw back a few scotches and tell those above him how it was...he could do so because he had benefactors that would protect him...now throwing back a few scotches alone could end you.

It is exceedingly hard to risk everything when your demise will simply be brushed aside by the system.

Shack.

Olds had enormous top cover. He was able to do and say many of the things he is famous for as a result of that top cover. The support was there primarily because of three things 1) a happenstance of birth, 2) willingness to do the queep and 3) credibility as an aviator.

I would argue his credibility as an aviator was the most powerful of the three and the other two were simply amplifiers. Olds took advantage to lead and be agressive as hell at every opportunity he had in an airplane all the way to the end of his career. He is a model of combat leadership today.

Leading in combat takes some balls if you want to do it well. However, it is possible, even in combat, to be a pussy as a leader.

I saw a shift in focus in the CAF to finding leaders with credibility during the last third of my career. That was primarily because the leadership at the top of the house had credibility in the jet and believed those leading should have the same.

Unfortunately, is sounds like we have reverted somewhat...to be polite.

An obvious correlation to the changes we are seeing over the last 6-9 yrs would be to track the physical changes at Bagram with the changes in the attitude wrt flying credibility required for leadership positions. There was once a laser focus at Bagram on killing the enemy and nothing else. Not a single person on the base had PT gear or a reflective belt. Not one. No shit.

I call it the porcelain and Häagen-Dazs effect.

Now, on a happier note...make a difference whenever and wherever you can, knowing the rules allows you to BFM them as required and always be good in the jet.

You don't know what you don't see...dudes are risking EVERYTHING to pass the message higher. Look at the O-6 Command Selection Board two years ago...the board did not have enough people "volunteer" to be considered because people are fed up and tired. Something like 54% of the BPZ dudes declined consideration for command!

Yup, I know a dude who was in that position and when AFPC saw that they didn't have enough bodies to fill slots, they took away his already lined up #1 assignment and sent him on a 365 command to the desert. Pretty nice way of the AF saying "thanks for serving" during the then "Year of the Military Family," which was an entirely separate joke of a campaign filled with empty catch phrases and programs.

Let me be the first to say AMF. You certainly had interesting things to say and controversial views but you went about engaging others all wrong.

Threeholer, I like your idea to get back on topic.

Here's who I'd want leading night one:

My previous flight commanders (the flight was broken down into 2 parts technically and for rating purposes because it was too large for one person to handle, but we still treated it the same). Both are EPs and former fighter dudes and are excellent pilots and officers. Both are mid-level captains who, despite their focus on the mission, have also done the queep and told their young lieutenants to get it done because that's the game we're all now playing. Young, accomplished leaders who lead from the front and exude tactical excellence, that's who I want leading night one and realistically the way we operate, that's who'd be doing it anyways because in all likelihood the Boss would be in the TOC/JOC.

Edited July 13, 201114 yr by nsplayr

I'd want my first operational Sq/CC out there on night one. He was credible in the jet: an IP who could fly well and teach. He was extremely credible as the Sq/CC: the Sq earned the Spaatz Trophy due to his leadership. It must have sucked royally on the paperwork side to have been one of his execs, as he pushed hard to provide all deserving Sq members with appropriate rewards...he pushed hard to get dudes their PME, promotions to include a many times passed over Maj his promotion to LtCol with just enough time before retirement that he got to keep the rank. The list goes on. The thing that really makes me proud to have been part of such a great Sq was that there are many more dudes at various levels of leadership who taught me a lot.

I'd want my first Chief Pilot. I'll never forget being told to focus only on the jet the first six months of the assignment...and that there would be plenty of time to get the additional duty boxes checked later.

I'd want my third Sq/CC. He was brand new to the jet when he was our DO. But he learned well after flying many different aircraft over his career. He supported dudes in the squadron 100%...he took care of the people and the people took care of the mission.

There are a few then-Captains (now Majors and above) who I'd want out there as well. But the bottom line about each and every one of them is that they were credible pilots, good leaders, and they took care of the queep without complaint (as far as the rest of us knew).

If that is the case, then by all means take it.

Use extreme caution. This maneuver requires great skill and an abundance of luck to accomplish. It is kind of like tying the low altitude record...it has been done but only a very few have lived to tell about it.