Cross Country info

[Rocker]

How much leeway does the student have in deciding where to go on a cross country at pilot training? Does the IP assign a destination or can the student have input? I know it probably depends on the IP and what phase or track you're in, but I'm wondering if the student can plan a XC to somewhere they want to go (within reason).

[Guest lovelacm]

Back in Tweets, you have pretty limited range. Talk with other guys coming through the program ahead of you for cool ideas. If you have an idea, chat with your prospective IP and see if that's kosher.

In T-44s at Corpus we had room to go most anywhere we wanted. We'd talk with the IPs to see if they had any "druthers," put in our inputs, and roll from there.

Flexibility truly is the key to air power.. and to being a STUD.. just roll with it and you'll have a good time.

Cheers!

[Toro]

Generally the IPs would suggest places to go and the students would get to choose from those available options. Occasionally you'll get the student who suggests something out of the way - I remember one class that made it to Vegas from Columbus. They had to double turn Friday and fly once Saturday to make it there, then trip turn Sunday to make it back (didn't get a whole lot of training either). As long as you're within decent range and can get 1-2 guys to go with you, most IPs don't really care where you go.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

We had a dynamic plan to go to Vegas from Vance in the T-1. All of the mission prep was done 1 week prior, we had found low-level routes and got the slot times, etc.

Guess what...the weather turned to shit and we ended up going to Kansas City and Colorado Springs. Others went to Omaha to watch the CWS.

If you can find a place that has good weather, the IP and DO (who is the approval authority) will sign off on it.

[Guest mchollar]

Of course, even if the weather is beautiful, don't expect to go where you want or where you planned. Most IPs try to work with you, but understand there are IPs who just want to go where they want to go.. PERIOD. Happened to me on both UPT X-countries. Even if you had an IP lined up and everything, there are things that happen in the squadron or personal lives or whatever and you end up planning a whole new trip on Friday morning with an IP you've never met before that really doesn't care what you had in mind. That's just what happens. Talk to 'cool' IPs early about going with them somewhere and maybe you'll avoid that.

As a stud.. you have no rights. Oh well.

[Guest CBStud]

You're also limited by fuel contracts and runway length. You can only go to approved airports. In 38's we have a bunch of training requirements to fulfill so yet another limitation was placed on us. You need to get 'x' number of different approaches so you need to go places that can give you multiple approaches and non-standard stuff, ie - you're probably not going to get a circling approach at O'Hare. Throw the weather into the mix and x-country is a huge pain until you get airborne. In Tweets we pretty much went where the IP's wanted to go and in 38's we planned everything out and just briefed them on where we were going.

[Bergman]

You can't forget that BILLETTING will drive your cross country...at least it did at XL! If we couldn't get on-base lodging rates, the DO wouldn't approve it. That may have changed in the last 6 months, but definitely something to ask about prior to spending 40 hours planning that great cross country to vegas (been there done that..in a TWEET!)

One last comment...in TONEs, Chuck and I had a GREAT plan to RON in St. Louis. Decent weather, rooms and transpo taken care of, an FBO with fuel contract and 24 hour service. CNXd by the FAIP..."because I don't feel comfortable flying into Class B airspace". WTF!?! In a $4M jet with every bell and whistle. YGBSM. Guess it was better to make that call rather than getting in over his head (STS) but IMHO any AF pilot can handle Class B at night (vectors ILS full stop).

[Baseops.Net]

NAS Corpus X-Countries:

--Fly anywhere CONUS, From Seattle to Maine to San Diego to Key West... and even sometimes you can go to Canada!

--Land and/or refuel wherever you want, Mil, Civ, Unicom, whatever... (gov fuel required).

--IPs can fly them as many times a month/quarter/year as they want (i.e. everysingle weekend like some guys do)

--Fly out Friday, NO FLY Sat, Return Sun night. If you plan early enough you can even scuba dive on Sat and still meet the 24-hour rule for Sunday!

--5000'x100' is all you need.

--Stay on OR off-base - simply meet perdiem rates and you are full-reimbursed for lodging + meals.

Overall the absolute BEST X-Country policy in the military.

[Guest Jer105]

If your IFR it doesn't really matter what class the airspace is. I just flew an Army C-12 to Andrews AFB, within 15 min of a ramp freeze for the president and it was the same as flying to a class D airport when your IFR.

[JS]

Another thing to consider (in Tweets) if you go far is that there is a good chance that you will break down and have to drive home. Some IP's will caution dudes from going from CBM out to Texas because when you break, it is like a 12+ hour ride home. There is a chance that if you break down you can get two IP's to fly a jet out to you, but don't count on it.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Jer105:

If your IFR it doesn't really matter what class the airspace is. I just flew an Army C-12 to Andrews AFB, within 15 min of a ramp freeze for the president and it was the same as flying to a class D airport when your IFR.

I'll disagree there. I've flown into all classes of airspace, CONUS and OCONUS and I can say that it has a lot to do with the type of airspace - which will generally have a higher traffic load - not just whether you're IFR. I also went into Andrews once and after they tried to send me to the opposite end of the field to fly a star, we declared min fuel. No response (it won't get you traffic priority, but we tried). We waited until we were no kidding going to be emer fuel before we said the word. You have zero priority when you start getting into airspace with a lot of commercial airliners flying - it gets extremely expensive for them to be be vectored off course or (God forbid) broken off an approach.

[Guest HueyPilot]

I had the same situation at Laughlin about Class B airports. I don't know if it's just a culture they breed down there or what.

The T-1 is made for flying into Class B airports. Ironically, on my Tweet X-Country we flew into Ft. Worth NAS, and even though the airport itself wasn't busy, the airspace was extremely busy. So there I was in an old 1950s cockpit flying around DFW airspace.

Yet, in T-1s, I had to beg my IP to fly into Albuquerque because it was "too busy". And remember the VFR leg and arrival? I wanted to do mine to New Orleans Lakefront airport, where I used to fly Army Guard helos. I had all the VFR corridors memorized, and they damn near shot that one down too if it weren't for me convincing my IP it would be ok! When he decided to go with it, all the other IPs thought he was an idiot to try and fly VFR near a Class B airport.

We're flying a multi-million dollar jet with dual VHF, UHF, TCAS, GPWS and an awesome autopilot with FMS, and we're afraid to fly into an airport where people regularly fly little spam-can Cessnas!

[Guest mfont]

I wanted to do mine to New Orleans Lakefront airport, where I used to fly Army Guard helos.

HueyPilot,

How long ago was it that you flew for the 1-244th? I fly out of LA Regional (L38, about 30 miles west of Lakefront.) Anyway, my first semester at LSU they flew their blackhawks on campus and landed on the parade grounds to recruit for ANG. It was a pretty cool stunt they pulled-- all the students were amazed! That day I spoke with the Co. Commander; I believe his name was Capt. Plunckett. He almost talked me into flying with the Army as a WO (hey, it sounded good at the time.) Thank Goodness, I've decided to pursue AF aviation instead.

PS- I agree with you on your comment about NO class B being not "too busy." I've flown my spam can in their once or twice.

[Gravedigger]

Toro, I know just what you mean. Here in Atlanta, unless you are Delta, don't call.

"N12345 declaring an emergency"

ATC: "N12345 Standby, Delta 123 say request"

It's hard to get a call in Class B. I've flown several approaches where I was told no need to acknowledge further calls.

[HerkDerka]

One place I hate to fly into is KMEM. Those approach contollers are real dicks. If you don't have Fed Ex somewhere in your callsign, they view you as the low man on the totem pole. MEM is normally not that bad, it's just when you show up during the big Fed Ex departure and arrival times. On the lighter side Washington DC's controllers are generally pretty helpful, but you gotta watch out for all the damn TFRs.

HD

[Guest Metalhead]

I think I need to "Mentor" some of these XL faips.

Their giving the IP's a bad name!

I'll go anywhere a stud wants to go ==> provided they've planned it out and I mean planned everything. Often I've been working with the studs planning and they overlook a show stopper, like, oh what do they call that stuff... feather, heather, oHH, Weather!

And occasionally the ADO's or DO will shoot down a good plan for other factors. Like mass buffoonery on the part of other XL squadrons that aren't the 84th, 86th or 87th!

[Mild]

John Thompson,

Back to the original question. If you're XL 05-11, you're in the T-6. The biggest limitations are that as far west as you can go in Albuquerque and they want you within one state away (generally). The reason for that is maintenance, if you break our mx dudes will come fix you. They want you within one state because if you start going farther away you are getting less training and longer for the mx dudes to travel if you break. You should be able to plan wherever you want within those constraints, keep in mind as the end of the fiscal year approaches you might be limited to mil fields for on-base billeting.

[ghost_ttu]

Can someone tell me the minimum runway requ. for 38's to full stop? Just curious.

[Flare]

Originally posted by ghost_ttu:

Can someone tell me the minimum runway requ. for 38's to full stop? Just curious.

8,000 feet..... if can be waivered by your OG/CC to 7,000 feet.

[ghost_ttu]

I was just wondering because at Mathis Field in San Angelo, they have T-1's coming in full stop all the time, but the 38's never full stop. I was told by one of the CFI's out here that the 38's can't full stop out here.

The runway is 8,049. Anyone out at XL know what's up with that? I guess EN could possibly come out here also.

[Mild]

Chuck is right about the PA and the TOLD factors (critical field length)that the temp affects that might let a T-38 land there but not be able to take off until its cooler in the morning. Don't forget about the displaced threshold on 18 either, IIRC that brings the landing runway couple hundred feet below 8K.

[Guest Broncopilot943]

Are there any cross country lessons during UPT in the t-37 / t-6 or the t-38? If so, how far do people usually go and what are the limitations on the airports you can go to?

[Guest pcampbell]

Obviously, you'll need a suitable runway for the aircraft (5000' x 75' for the tweet). I think the max for each leg in the tweet was 300 nm. However, the whole point of the x-country is to get a bunch of approaches in, so you don't want to waste all of your gas on the leg. We (Sheppard) had dudes go to New Orleans, CSprings, St. Louis, and one dude went to Offut.

[ 27. February 2005, 00:25: Message edited by: Razorback ]

[FourFans]

In tweets at Laughlin we got a cross-country that departed on friday morning/afternoon and returned on monday. Standard is two flights for each day (roughly 1.5-2.0hrs per flight): one night flight, one day VFR and the rest simple IFR flying.

We stayed overnight in Austin, Dallas, and Oklahoma City, then returned back to Laughlin on Monday. I've heard some dudes make it to Vegas. Not a lot of party time, but a lot of flying. We got 25 approaches total.

As for airports, that'll depend on what you're flying, but mostly semi major airports (don't plan on flying home and landing at grandpa's airstrip in his back yard)

Tweet: like Razorback said

T-6: not exactly sure but a smaller runway than a tweet.

I also know (obviously not first hand experience) that the 38 sylabus in standard UPT has a x-country and possibly a solo out-and-back (one day). I'm sure there's a 38 dude here somewhere who can fill in those details

[Guest Walter_Sobchak]

Typically it's one XC per phase in T-37s and T-38s. Out of SPS I flew my T-37 XC to New Orleans Lakefront and my T-38 XC to Tyndall. We had a unique limitation on the T-38A (iirc, C models with PMP may have changed this) where high density altitudes would give us very low refusal speeds (er, S1, now that I speak BUFF) relative to runway length. The result is that during the summer it was almost impossible to be fly west and be legal (well, pre-wings student legal, at least), between the expected temps and the higher airport elevations. I believe the only place going west with a compatible barrier was Holloman, and it's a safe bet that more people would want to go to Panama Ciy. Case in point, I remember sitting in an FBO at Gulfport, MS (almost 0 MSL field elevation) running numbers to make sure we could legally takeoff and having about 2 degrees and 5 knots to play with.