Ammo against the shoe clerks!

[Guest Jango]

One time, I broke at least three flying rules to medevac a grunt who had been shot in the head. He lived. I weighed my options and made a sound decision. I guess in hindsight I should have manned up and followed established rules. Feel free to preach to me all you want about professionalism...I don't care, I'm not a professional. You can tug on the koolaid all you want.

Apples and oranges bro, I know you aren't that stupid to think that's in the same league as dress and appearance.

Now,... rather than discuss hats and sunglasses-on-the-forehead of officers, let's morph this discussion into why so many USAF Enlisted can't render a proper salute in a timely manner and with some military bearing, like the other military services can.

I think this one goes both ways, I have seen Es and Os regardless of AFSC avoiding each other in let's say the BX parking lot so that they don't have to salute. These are more than likely the same people that go running indoors when they hear retreat start to play.

[MKopack]

Hmm.

1) Bader lost his legs because he didn't follow peacetime training rules (and it very nearly cost him his life)

2) Bader only got back in the cockpit because there was a a war on and we were exceedingly short of pilots

I suspect that you know better examples to cite, Mike.

I agree Steve, the Bulldog crash isn't a good example for "ranking the importance of individual regulations". It was probably a 'learning opportunity' that I'd bet he'd have rather not gone through, though. (...although given his reputation I don't think I'd have asked him about it...)

"Crashed slow-rolling near ground. Bad show."

- logbook entry for that flight.

I was more thinking about his pushing against the regulations that would let him fly. While it was only approved because of the war, in the end, you've got to admit, it worked out pretty well and in some cases opened the door for others to follow, WWII and beyond.

Sorry to take this off topic, I'm done now.

Edited October 12, 2010 by MKopack

[Guest Jango]

I had almost the same thing happen. Couldn't find my hat. Hung out in the sq until mil clothing opened for the day and then drove over. No more than two steps from my car on a b-line to mil clothing, I get chewed out by some shoe who looks like I just killed his first born child. "What kind of example do you think you're setting, strolling around base without your cover!?!?" ...I explained to him that I couldn't find my hat anywhere and pointed out that I was seconds away from buying a new one until he stopped me. His response was, and I quote: "Well get on with it. You're an Officer, start acting like one!"

Pretty awesome. ...That's what happens when we encourage institutionalized brainwashing at the expense of critical thought or SA.

(Info note: He was a Major [...comm officer, std] and I was a Lt)

You know, that happens....what the Major did, regardless if he is a Comm officer or whatever, he was well in his right as a Major to do what he did. If he hurt your feelings, then it is what it is, you work in a military institution. He could have a little more nice about it I agree with you there, and understood your situation, hell one of your buddies could have hid or frozen your hat. I am rather shocked an officer treated another officer that way.

[TMFan]

You know, that happens....what the Major did, regardless if he is a Comm officer or whatever, he was well in his right as a Major to do what he did. If he hurt your feelings, then it is what it is, you work in a military institution. He could have a little more nice about it I agree with you there, and understood your situation, hell one of your buddies could have hid or frozen your hat. I am rather shocked an officer treated another officer that way.

go away

[Guest Hueypilot812]

You know, that happens....what the Major did, regardless if he is a Comm officer or whatever, he was well in his right as a Major to do what he did. If he hurt your feelings, then it is what it is, you work in a military institution. He could have a little more nice about it I agree with you there, and understood your situation, hell one of your buddies could have hid or frozen your hat. I am rather shocked an officer treated another officer that way.

That's not the point. The point he was making was it was idiotic and a complete lack of SA for the Major to chew out a LT mere steps away from mil clothing about the lack of a hat. Any moron would see that a guy making a straight run for mil clothing sales minus a hat is probably going there because they lost their hat. In other words, the Major simply wanted to make a big deal out of nothing, much like most of the other uniform Nazi confrontations.

Since you're so big on running up and doing your good deed of correcting people over minor uniform infractions, there's a C-130 wing commander that I know who regularly rolls his sleeves up and wears tab patches while in his flight suit. How about you correct him while you're at it. For what it's worth, he's probably among the best commanders one will ever know...I know, I know...it's hard to believe because, gasp!, his sleeves are rolled up, zipper below his name tag, and he's always sporting those pesky unauthorized tab patches...

Those in the Herk world probably know who I'm talking about and will probably agree that he's an awesome leader.

[Red Devil 89]

I know a Special Operations helicopter pilot who is missing part of his leg due to a landmine blast. Last I saw of him about 5 years ago, he was a squadron commander...

he was the commander of the 20th SOS when they were at Hurlburt.....he was in the 20th as a Captain while my dad was the 1st Sgt. I just can't remember his name

[Guest Jango]

That's not the point. The point he was making was it was idiotic and a complete lack of SA for the Major to chew out a LT mere steps away from mil clothing about the lack of a hat. Any moron would see that a guy making a straight run for mil clothing sales minus a hat is probably going there because they lost their hat. In other words, the Major simply wanted to make a big deal out of nothing, much like most of the other uniform Nazi confrontations.

Since you're so big on running up and doing your good deed of correcting people over minor uniform infractions, there's a C-130 wing commander that I know who regularly rolls his sleeves up and wears tab patches while in his flight suit. How about you correct him while you're at it. For what it's worth, he's probably among the best commanders one will ever know...I know, I know...it's hard to believe because, gasp!, his sleeves are rolled up, zipper below his name tag, and he's always sporting those pesky unauthorized tab patches...

Those in the Herk world probably know who I'm talking about and will probably agree that he's an awesome leader.

You make a good point about the clothing sales, that Major should have been able to add 1+1 and get 2. He didn't. And your Wing/CC...it's his damn base right? Your attempt at goading me failed. Nice lure though, cute back back story and everything. Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse?

[08Dawg]

Now,... rather than discuss hats and sunglasses-on-the-forehead of officers, let's morph this discussion into why so many USAF Enlisted can't render a proper salute in a timely manner and with some military bearing, like the other military services can.

What kinda hacks me off even more is people who render salutes and don't say a damn word. Whether it's me returning an airman's salute, or me saluting a more senior officer, I always, always say at least "How ya doin" or "Good afternoon, sir" or something. But sometimes you get these dudes that throw you a salute, but say nothing at all, almost in a "I'm doing this cause I have to" kind of way. And it's not just once. Almost seems to be prevalent. Anybody else had this?

[Getzen2]

What kinda hacks me off even more is people who render salutes and don't say a damn word. Whether it's me returning an airman's salute, or me saluting a more senior officer, I always, always say at least "How ya doin" or "Good afternoon, sir" or something. But sometimes you get these dudes that throw you a salute, but say nothing at all, almost in a "I'm doing this cause I have to" kind of way. And it's not just once. Almost seems to be prevalent. Anybody else had this?

[shoe]the reg says that you are to render a salute and verbal greeting. when this happens to me I stop and give that young airman a good chewing for as long as I have time for![/shoe]

This bothers me, but more that the airman is shy rather than disrespectful. Normally they see you and are intimidated by the rank, in basic they are taught to fear officers. It just takes a couple times giving them a greeting "in return" for them to get the clue.

[Whitty]

You make a good point about the clothing sales, that Major should have been able to add 1+1 and get 2. He didn't. And your Wing/CC...it's his damn base right? Your attempt at goading me failed. Nice lure though, cute back back story and everything. Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse?

Keep it up, man. I think you're winning everyone over for sure.

[Guest Crew Report]

You make a good point about the clothing sales, that Major should have been able to add 1+1 and get 2. He didn't. And your Wing/CC...it's his damn base right? Your attempt at goading me failed. Nice lure though, cute back back story and everything. Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse?

So you wouldn't point out discrepancies with the Wing King's uniform, but you would with other Officers? You sound like the typical Enlisted Shoe. If Pilot's are in the minority then why do they run the majority of the Air Force? It's sure not Loggie Officers.

We'll be on spot 52, thanks.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Crew Report

[08Dawg]

[shoe]the reg says that you are to render a salute and verbal greeting. when this happens to me I stop and give that young airman a good chewing for as long as I have time for![/shoe]

This bothers me, but more that the airman is shy rather than disrespectful. Normally they see you and are intimidated by the rank, in basic they are taught to fear officers. It just takes a couple times giving them a greeting "in return" for them to get the clue.

I have never chewed anybody out for it, hardly even said anything because I feel like that would just add fuel to the fire. It's just common courtesy to say SOMETHING to somebody as you pass them. I dunno, maybe I was raised different.

[Guest Jango]

So you wouldn't point out discrepancies with the Wing King's uniform, but you would with other Officers? You sound like the typical Enlisted Shoe. If Pilot's are in the minority then why do they run the majority of the Air Force? It's sure not Loggie Officers.

We'll be on spot 52, thanks.

If I saw something out of place with the Wing/CC I would politely mention it, I surely would get an attitude and jump him for it, use your head. And why do pilots run the majority of the AF? Rhetorical question so to speak?

[Guest Crew Report]

If I saw something out of place with the Wing/CC I would politely mention it, I surely would get an attitude and jump him for it, use your head. And why do pilots run the majority of the AF? Rhetorical question so to speak?

You surely would get an attitude and jump him for it? Checks.

Why do pilots run the majority of the AF? Because they do.

[Guest Jango]

You surely would get an attitude and jump him for it? Checks.

Why do pilots run the majority of the AF? Because they do.

Ok. This is an easy question. If pilots run the majority of the Air Force, then why do we still have these nit-noid rules? Another question is, why are they having us enforce those rules?

Case in point, during our last ORI the Wing Commander about had a fit because people were getting caught without reflective belts.....and this guy flies, I see his name on the flying schedule. So what gives?

[Guest Alarm Red]

Ok. This is an easy question. If pilots run the majority of the Air Force, then why do we still have these nit-noid rules? Another question is, why are they having us enforce those rules?

Case in point, during our last ORI the Wing Commander about had a fit because people were getting caught without reflective belts.....and this guy flies, I see his name on the flying schedule. So what gives?

Judy.

[Guest Crew Report]

Ok. This is an easy question. If pilots run the majority of the Air Force, then why do we still have these nit-noid rules? Another question is, why are they having us enforce those rules?

Case in point, during our last ORI the Wing Commander about had a fit because people were getting caught without reflective belts.....and this guy flies, I see his name on the flying schedule. So what gives?

Well for one, not all pilots (or people) for that matter have the same personality type. For two, it's not that we have "nit-noid" rules, it's just the Air Force breeds a culture of subordinates not using tact and being respectful to superiors when correcting something simple like uniform issue. Do you honestly thing a PFC in the USMC would yell at a Major for not wearing a hat and not saluting them on top of it? Yeah, I don't think so.

The Wing King probably had a fit because not wearing a reflective belt could be considered a safety issue, and having a safety issue during an inspection is not good in anyway. I actually remember a time back in '04 at Al Udeid where you could wear whatever you wanted off duty (civilian clothes), the Air Force didn't have real PT gear at the time, and they really didn't care about reflective belts when you were off duty. Now you have wear one around your backpack or the buses that go 5-10MPH might hit you during hours of dusk.

One of the bigger problem with the Air Force is we have a bunch of personnel (usually not in the Ops/MX units) that constantly harp about how they support "the mission." However, they don't know what "the mission" really is. And to me that's a facility. At the northern deployed tanker base the base populous thought we hauled in fuel (tankers) to power the electrical generators. Calling out people for an untucked t-shirt or having sunglasses on their head is not "the mission", doing your duties and doing them well and supporting the actual mission is.

I'm sure any of the current/prior Marines on this board will agree but the USMC is very good at letting the rest of their branch know that their job is supporting that 18 year old grunt with a rifle in his hand. And for the most part their personnel understand that concept. Most of the Air Force non-flyers have a huge complex and biased against flyers and it seems they would rather point out nit-noid infractions with uniforms than trying to work with the flyers to get the mission done. Because even us flyers are support as well, we're supporting that 18 year grunt with a rifle in his hand.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Crew Report

[Guest Alarm Red]

I'm sure any of the current/prior Marines on this board will agree but the USMC is very good at letting the rest of their branch know that their job is supporting that 18 year old grunt with a rifle in his hand. And for the most part their personnel understand that concept. Most of the Air Force non-flyers have a huge complex and biased against flyers and it seems they would rather point out nit-noid infractions with uniforms than trying to work with the flyers to get the mission done. Because even us flyers are support as well, we're supporting that 18 year grunt with a rifle in his hand.

As much as I want this thread to die the slow painful death it deserves, I've seen this sentiment posted twice from two people in the last week. The Air Force does not exist as a support function. It exists to execute national policy. In our present COIN operation, that involves answering the JFLCC's call to support ground operations. But please don't think that all airpower exists to support all ground pounders. Reference Allied Force, Eldorado Canyon, Rolling Thunder, Linebacker I, Linebacker II, etc. None of which involved Joe.

[pawnman]

If I saw something out of place with the Wing/CC I would politely mention it, I surely would get an attitude and jump him for it, use your head. And why do pilots run the majority of the AF? Rhetorical question so to speak?

Because it's the AIR Force, not the "Logistics" force or the "Support" force.

[Chuck17]

...Fact is this, 1.8% of the total AF are pilots already making your group a minority, we can probably extrapolate that a good .2% of you have a disreguard for....well lets just say it...not maintaining standards where approprite. So that .2% are you making things better or worse?

You know what pisses me off? MATH. And not just math but math used in error, to attempt to prove a point. 69% of all statistics are made up on the spot (/sarcasm). Always, always, always do your homework. Now, ASS-uming active duty numbers only:

FROM THE USAF WEBSITE OBTAINED HERE: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/airforcepersonnelstatistics.asp

329,638 individuals are on active duty: 66,201 officers (just a hair over 20%) and 263,437 enlisted personnel (just shy of 80%).

The Air Force has 14,083 pilots, 4,074 navigators, 1,426 air battle managers in the grade of 0-5 and below.

That means ACTIVE DUTY PILOTS (O-5 and below) make up 4% of the total active duty force, and just a bit over 21% of the USAF Officer force.

From Jango's example: 2% of the USAF active duty pilot force is 282 shitbag pilots who fuck it up for the rest of us on a daily basis. And thats being generous since you underestimated the number of pilots in the USAF by a factor of 1319 pilots (that one took me a few mins to gonkulate).

We can expand that to include all aircrew if you want. My minor point is don't throw bullshit numbers around unless you have the right bullshit numbers - someone will always check. Dont give the bastards the satisfaction of making you look like more of an ass by using your own bullshit numbers against you to make you look silly (or more correct as the case may be); always be right. Google is a bitch, math is too. Thats just good baseops.net forum advice - take it or leave it, there is no quarter given here.

Do the math on other career fields - 4% of the total force and 21% of the officer aint nothing to scoff at. When you add the additional rated aircrew types out there, thats a significant portion of the USAF officer force (about 30%) thats rated, running ops world-wide, flying and hacking the mission - dare I say a VAST majority over nonrated career fields in any other AFSC group of three you can find (See what I did there Jango - I speculated, leaving an opening for you to do your homework and prove me wrong). THOSE NUMBERS, THE JOBS THEY DO EVERYDAY ARE WHY AIRCREW RUN THE USAF. This isnt the US Medical Force or the US Finance Force or the US Space Force (yet). If you want to work where bus drivers to run a company, go work for the City Bus company or Laidlaw. Same goes for any other AFSC that SUPPORTS flying "the mission" everyone always talks about... its what you do. Everyone has/had choices. Be proud of yours. There are some dudes running trans, PJs, Cops, EOD that I cant hold a candle to as far as sacrifice and bravery goes. Never. Wont even try. It still doesnt change the fact that aircrew should be in charge of an air force - a fact we learned and relearned time and again since the first battle in the air.

I dont know what you guys are bitching about, this thread entertains the shit outta me. .02 cents all around!

Chuck

[Vertigo]

Apples and oranges bro, I know you aren't that stupid to think that's in the same league as dress and appearance.

If you are too lazy to maintain a professional appearance, what other corners are you cutting?

So which is it, brah? You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth or can't seem to remember your own stance.

[Kuma]

As much as I want this thread to die the slow painful death it deserves, I've seen this sentiment posted twice from two people in the last week. The Air Force does not exist as a support function. It exists to execute national policy. In our present COIN operation, that involves answering the JFLCC's call to support ground operations. But please don't think that all airpower exists to support all ground pounders. Reference Allied Force, Eldorado Canyon, Rolling Thunder, Linebacker I, Linebacker II, etc. None of which involved Joe.

Alarm Red...I don't get you. You have a twisted sense of reality. I have been at odds with other statements that you make, but with this one...I am nearly speechless. EVERYTHING you do is for the 18 year-old grunt on the ground. If you are a BUFF pilot during LINEBACKER then you are destroying the enemy's means to resist. Have you read "Supplying War" or anything by Sun Tzu? If you have any military education at all, you know that our job directly effects the Marines and Soldiers on the ground.

[Steve Davies]

Alarm Red...I don't get you. You have a twisted sense of reality. I have been at odds with other statements that you make, but with this one...I am nearly speechless. EVERYTHING you do is for the 18 year-old grunt on the ground. If you are a BUFF pilot during LINEBACKER then you are destroying the enemy's means to resist. Have you read "Supplying War" or anything by Sun Tzu? If you have any military education at all, you know that our job directly effects the Marines and Soldiers on the ground.

Actually, that's not true. El Dorado Canyon had nothing to do with supporting boots on the ground, nor did the decade-long OSW and ONW.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Alarm Red...I don't get you. You have a twisted sense of reality. I have been at odds with other statements that you make, but with this one...I am nearly speechless. EVERYTHING you do is for the 18 year-old grunt on the ground. If you are a BUFF pilot during LINEBACKER then you are destroying the enemy's means to resist. Have you read "Supplying War" or anything by Sun Tzu? If you have any military education at all, you know that our job directly effects the Marines and Soldiers on the ground.

Noted.

Where was the closest friendly soldier when Fingers Goldfein was shot down in '99? 244 bombs fell on Baghdad during Desert Strom. How many soldiers saw the Baghdad skyline during Desert Storm? Linebacker II was to get North Vietnam back to the peace talks and had about as much to do with the coast guard as it did the army.

I spent a year deployed with the infantry. Only saw a handful of Joes (I'd estimate less than 10) who were 18. The average age is somewhere around 30. I get the sentiment of the whole "18 year grunt" statement, but we don't need to add any more kitsch to it, it's not a bumper sticker.

[pawnman]

Alarm Red...I don't get you. You have a twisted sense of reality. I have been at odds with other statements that you make, but with this one...I am nearly speechless. EVERYTHING you do is for the 18 year-old grunt on the ground. If you are a BUFF pilot during LINEBACKER then you are destroying the enemy's means to resist. Have you read "Supplying War" or anything by Sun Tzu? If you have any military education at all, you know that our job directly effects the Marines and Soldiers on the ground.

Again, we support national policy. While strategic bombing may support the ground troops overall by diverting resources, you may as well say that any American who pays taxes is supporting the 18 year-old grunt on the ground by that logic.

In the current fight, yes, our job is very much to give support to the guys on the ground. But in a large conflict with a peer? Not so much. We're going to be busy attacking objectives far out of reach of the ground troops.