Ammo against the shoe clerks!

[pawnman]

In that same billeting AFI, it talks about aircrew rooms and crew integrity - another issue that I seem to have to fight with billeting every time:

2.2.7. Transient Aircrew Lodging. Lodging provides a private room/private bath to transient aircrew

members 0-1 and above (accommodations may include a shared kitchen and/or living area). For

enlisted transient aircrew members, lodging provides a private room and a private or shared bath. Aircrew

members are defined as anyone on the flight crew order. Ensure gender is considered when

assigned lodging to aircrews. Crew integrity will be maintained--all members of the same crew will be

housed together, either all on base or all off base. If a crew is divided into multiple buildings on base,

no more than two stops will be required to pick up all crew members. NOTE: Exceptions may be

made during contingencies.

2.2.7.1. When construction or maintenance in the vicinity of aircrew quarters could interrupt crew

rest, general managers will not assign aircrew members to buildings in the area.

2.2.7.2. Lodging may assign other TDY personnel to transient aircrew accommodations if not

required for aircrews and other on-base lodging is not available. When assigning other TDY personnel

to aircrew accommodations, advise them of the varied aircrew members sleeping hours,

and ask them to refrain from making any noise or disturbance that could interrupt crew rest.

2.2.7.3. Lodging will maintain aircrew integrity by housing the entire aircrew either on base or off

base. If housed on base, lodging will house them as close together as possible. If lodged off base,

lodging will house the aircrew in one commercial establishment.

2.2.7.4. The installation commander or the aircraft commander may waive aircrew lodging

requirements on a temporary basis for reasons of military necessity.

2.2.7.5. Transient aircrews may use AF Form 2282, Statement of Adverse Affect--Use of Government

Facilities, at Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps installations when available temporary

lodging does not meet Air Force standards for aircrews. When adequate government

lodging is available, but does not meet special mission support requirements or crew integrity

requirements, or the host installation commander has determined that the requirements cannot be

24 AFI34-246 17 MAY 2001

supported, the members may obtain commercial accommodations at their own expense. In these

cases, the general manager will not issue NA numbers. The TDY member is responsible for filing

the AF Form 2282 at their permanent duty base.

My stepfather pulled that card more than once with an AWACS bird. "We're on alert, you have to lodge the whole crew together...we'll be staying at the Marriott downtown, since you don't have enough rooms for the whole crew here at the base."

[Guest dtfl]

Entitlements are part of your pay. There's no shame in claiming what you are owed.

However, don't be a douchebag when it comes to vouchers. The other day, I had one of my crew from a TDY come up and complain to me that he didn't get reimbursed for laundry. Laundry? WTFO? He had put four quarters into a washer and four into a dryer and he claimed it. It kills me when I see people do shit like that. Usually these are the same people who draw a new flight suit every month and complain about the sq not having any funds.

BTW, this thread was a great idea Xtndr.

HD

What is wrong with claiming an actual expense? You will be bent over by travel pay many times in your career..and if you haven't been in long, you will learn. If you are owed reimbursement - claim it.

You are allowed $2 per day, depending upon the length of your stay.

[HerkDerka]

What is wrong with claiming an actual expense?

Nothing. I just don't think it's worth the effort to hassle with leadership and resubmit travel vouchers over two bucks worth of laundry.

HD

Edited August 11, 2007 by HerkDerka

[Finance_Guy]

Background... Billeting at Kadena and Ellsworth (sturgis, baby!) have both refused to give me a non-A number

Most all entitlements come from the JFTR. In regards to a Non-Availability statement, per the JFTR it's not really required. See U1045 reference below. So what I get from this is the traveler can make a certification and the Order approver concur and approve, then you don't need a Non-A statement or confirmation number.

NOTE: If using DTS to prepare authorization and voucher, use the JFTR, Appendix O for guidance.

JFTR Web Link

What the Finance Office uses in conjunction with the JFTR:

TRAVEL-POLICY AND PROCEDURES FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES OFFICES AND FINANCE OFFICES-RESERVE COMPONENT

DoD Fin Mgmt Reg - Travel Policy and Procedures

U1045 GOVERNMENT QUARTERS USE/AVAILABILITY

C. Travel Order/Voucher

1. Documentation. A travel order/voucher must document availability/non-availability by:

a. Confirmation number provided by the Service’s lodging registration process;

b. The date the member attempted to make reservations, and the phone number and name of the billeting

office PoC; or

c. Member certification that Government quarters were not available on arrival.

2. Authorization/Approval. When a member provides acceptable documentation on a travel order/voucher of

Government quarters non-availability, the AO must authorize/approve reimbursement for commercial lodgings.

[Guest A.M.F.]

"In regards to a Non-Availability statement, per the JFTR it's not really required."

The JFTR may say it's not required, but in my squadron it is

More restrictive, not less

[slacker]

I used to keep a copy of the relevant JTR pages in my flight suit pocket. I've used the 24 hour rule plenty. I've had billeting clerks and finance guys tell me "the 24 hour rule" doesn't exist. It's always nice to see their faces when I would unzip the pocket and pull out the reg. I would only use it in a situation where billeting was screwing us and I felt I could defend my actions to the OG/CC. I haven't had to use it in years, but it is good to know the rules.

[Finance_Guy]

I've had billeting clerks and finance guys tell me "the 24 hour rule" doesn't exist. It's always nice to see their faces when I would unzip the pocket and pull out the reg.

It doesn't exist in one aspect. If vouchers are filed using DTS (which is mandated for Active Duty), the JFTR Appendix O is the governing regulation. Once you take a close look at these new "Simplified" rules, you will note the 24-hour loop-hole no longer exists. However, the non-A documentation rules in U1045-C are still referenced. It all depends on how your vouchers are paid. Eventually when DTS can process ALL travel vouchers, it will be completely gone unless Appendix O is changed. But since the traveler can certify QTRs were not available and your Approving Official (AO) can approve, no change there. Your DTS AO can also approve Actual Expense up to 300% which is a change from the JFTR rules (for the traveler's benefit). The old rules required Wing CC approval for 150% and MAJCOM FM for 151-300%.

Be sure to use Appendix O if your voucher is filed in DTS or FAST.

JFTR: U1039 DOD TEST OF SIMPLIFIED ALLOWANCES

Simplified travel and transportation allowance rules in Appendix O govern TDY for DOD Components listed in

Appendix O and for those locations where DTS has been fielded, or DTS-Limited software with computation

module is used, and at USAFE locations where FAST software is used to transition to DTS-Limited.

Pages_from_AppO.pdf

[brabus]

Just a friendly update...Finance is still batting a 1000. Went in the other day to ask why the fvck I hadn't been paid for my TDY over a month ago. Their answer: "uh, we lost your paperwork." And of course they didn't think to tell me about this...apparently standard procedure is to just wait till I go in and ask. Finance Guy...you know anyone who can get these fvckheads at Vance to get their shit together? Man I hate these guys.

[Finance_Guy]

Just a friendly update...Finance is still batting a 1000. Went in the other day to ask why the fvck I hadn't been paid for my TDY over a month ago. Their answer: "uh, we lost your paperwork." And of course they didn't think to tell me about this...apparently standard procedure is to just wait till I go in and ask. Finance Guy...you know anyone who can get these fvckheads at Vance to get their shit together? Man I hate these guys.

Talk to the Financial Service officer or your SQ resource advisor. I hope you don't talk to them the way you posted here. If so, I would suspect the paperwork was not "Lost"...you know what I mean.

If you have a scanner, scan all your stuff to PDF before submitting. There is nothing in the reg that says they cannot accept it, but local policy may override that. So just in case the voucher gets lost next time, shoot the PDF to the FSO or Comptroller and file a polite complaint and ask them to process the voucher. There's no reason why the voucher should be lost...they just can't find it.

Is Vance using DTS???

[brabus]

I'm always very polite to them. I've never been irate and it's true I only bash them on here or in the SQ. I firmly believe being nice gets you a lot farther than blowing up at people, even if it's completely warranted. However, it just makes my blood boil that EVERY time I deal w/ them, they lose something, completely screw it up, things magically change (for the worse of course), they never have a good reason for why somethings screwed up, etc. Yes, they're using DTS, but for some reason we had to do the old school way this time (I heard it was b/c Holloman wasn't in DTS, which is where we went TDY...but I don't know for sure). At least w/ DTS the screw-ups are minimized.

[Finance_Guy]

Yes, they're using DTS, but for some reason we had to do the old school way this time (I heard it was b/c Holloman wasn't in DTS, which is where we went TDY...but I don't know for sure).

Sounds like they messed that up too, but can't be sure not knowing all the details. Appears that Holloman may have funded the trip, but just because they are not on DTS does not mean you can't load their funds to your DTS. There's a new functionality in DTS called X-Org funding where the funding unit can allow other units (or down to a individual person) to use their funding line. They also could have sent your unit the fund cite, your RA would then load it for you to use. One disclaimer is with AETC TDY-to-School funds--If you were using those funds, then no joy.

Sorry to hear of all your problems. I don't know their story at Vance, but appears they need to work on their customer service.

[brabus]

they need to work on their customer service.

They're nice people, it's just they're horrible at their job...or at least they're horrible w/ my stuff, but I'm sure there are many more here w/ similar problems as I. It's frustrating when perfection is expected out of the Ops side of the house (as it should be), but mediocrity seems to be the goal on the support side (as far as Finance and MPF go). It's good to know level-headed people who don't suck at their job exist in the Finance world, just apparently not at Vance.

[HerkDerka]

I hope you don't talk to them the way you posted here.

If someone can't do their job, they deserve to be yelled at.

HD

[Guest Globetrotter]

Great topic. Obviously, it can be construed into many different facets but I think the boom's original aim is spot on - I think he was saying that often certain people don't know the regs that drive their own career field and it's total BS. However, they aren't the ones that are held accountable or screwed - it's YOU.

For us, when an aircrew member F***S up we can be damn near HUNG because of regs. If a shoeclerk doesn't know em' it's the customer that loses.

You have aircrew who works 18-24+ hour days on a mission and a shoeclerk who works 7-4 (except for training, lunch, internet surfing, gym time etc). Yeah, we should hold the fact that they don't know their own regs against them.

And I know they often don't know the regs:

when I crossed from the E side to the O side, it was on scholarship. Therefore, since I was going to school for the AF and further committing myself to the AF, I was pretty damn sure they had to pay for me to move somewhere other than my home of record.

Finance (a MSGT, craftsman in the career field, and the NCOIC) : "you would only get your household goods shipped if you moved back to your home of record."

Me: "I believe that the JFTRs say differently." I show him the regs, even highlighted in the proper sections which I had looked up in 5 minutes.

Finance NCOIC: "Oh.......uh, I guess you're right." I get my entitlements.

Hell yeah, we should know these things and have some good gouge to share with each other. That's the boom's idea. For combat and sucking it up, definitely there's a time and a place for pulling your BS cards. On the other hand, we can keep sucking it up but the shoeclerks WILL NOT!

[Stiffler]

If so, I would suspect the paperwork was not "Lost"...you know what I mean.

Cool, Ill be sure the next time someone from the "other buildings" gives me attitude, Ill forget to let them on the plane.

;-)

[Finance_Guy]

If someone can't do their job, they deserve to be yelled at.

HD

Not in a Customer to Customer Service Rep. environment. That's not the place. I've seen the attitude before and trust me, there's no special treatment, just a black mark on your name. Now on the subject of lost paperwork, we have to get to the root of the problem, but yelling don't help anything. For all we know the voucher was mailed back and was thrown out in the junk mail.

[Finance_Guy]

Cool, Ill be sure the next time someone from the "other buildings" gives me attitude, Ill forget to let them on the plane.

;-)

Do you personally greet each passenger?

[Bergman]

I'm always very polite to them. I've never been irate and it's true I only bash them on here or in the SQ. I firmly believe being nice gets you a lot farther than blowing up at people, even if it's completely warranted. However, it just makes my blood boil that EVERY time I deal w/ them, they lose something, completely screw it up, things magically change (for the worse of course), they never have a good reason for why somethings screwed up, etc.

After you've listened to their side of the story, just repeat after me:

"That's great Amn Snuffy. Can we go talk to your OIC now?"

I generally consider it very bad form to pull rank on someone, but this seems to be the only phrase that works with these people. 90% of the time you will never need to actually talk with the OIC, because your problem will be magically corrected. The rest of the time, the other O is usually more than helpful. At least that's been my experience.

[HerkDerka]

Not in a Customer to Customer Service Rep. environment. That's not the place. I've seen the attitude before and trust me, there's no special treatment, just a black mark on your name.

It's exactly the place. If I am the "customer" and the "customer service rep" isn't doing his job, I'm going to call him out. What you don't seem to understand is I wouldn't be looking for special treatment, I'd be looking for the rep to do his job correctly. If he still doesn't my next stop is his supervisor's office.

HD

[DigDug]

Not in a Customer to Customer Service Rep. environment. That's not the place. I've seen the attitude before and trust me, there's no special treatment, just a black mark on your name.

[RANT]

Holy Crap!!! Are you serious? It's not like I'm trying to return a pair of shoes at WalMart or something. I think most people here are talking about a military professional!!! I agree, the airman that you are talking to is probably (well I can say probably can't I?) not the one that "lost" your paperwork, but if they were, then they deserved to be yelled at. If that embarrasses them, tough. It's the military!!!! That same airman can be doing convoy ops in an ILO tasking next week. If they can't get the voucher thing right, what makes you think they can follow orders and execute the convoy plan?

And what is this black mark you speak of? It better be putting my crap on the top of the stack and making sure someone who knows what they're doing QC's the airman's work. If you are insinuating that you'll flag me and provide me with less that your best service - you sir should receive a NJP for failure to do your job (and possibly insubordination).

Sorry, that's just one warrior airman's perspective and an example of why the ops guys express such frustration with the so called "shoe-clerks".

[/RANT]

For what it's worth, I've had MOSTLY good experiences with finance. That's because I've watched them like a hawk. I've also found that a polite email or phone call to the section OIC will work wonders with "lost" paperwork. I had one "lost", resubmitted it directly to the section OIC. Here was the kicker - I dated all forms for the original submission. They kept trying to get me to change it, but I explained to the OIC that I did it so their bean counters would know the REAL time it took to process the voucher. Those sections LIVE and DIE on metrics, and I wanted to make sure the Colonels saw a red flag on the briefing slide.

Edited August 16, 2007 by DigDug

[Guest SATCOM]

Cool, Ill be sure the next time someone from the "other buildings" gives me attitude, Ill forget to let them on the plane.

;-)

Over the last few months we've had both MPF and Finance "lose" essential paperwork. So we instituted the old school "receipt" method. The first time you roll this tactic out will be priceless! Here's how it works:

1. Prepare a clipboard with a tally sheet complete with blocks, name/rank/date/etc. The last block is where the details of the paperwork are written. If you're taking an OER/EPR to MPF you'd write "OER, Capt. Wingnut, Sep 06-Sep 07."

2. Walk confidently up to the MPF/Finance technician with the said article in standard blue folder. Open said folder and have the technician read/review the item. Take it away from them and quickly slide the clipboard with item in front of them and advise that they must sign for the article in the appropriate slot. They WILL look at you with a rare combination of disgust and awe (the brow wrinkled at a perfect 46.8 degree angle). The first time they will refuse to sign it. Ask to see their supervisor. They will not sign it either. Ask to see the OIC. They will take you into their office and talk with you about WHY you are requesting a signature for an OER/Travel Voucher. You'll calmly and with great precision explain that the OIC's section has consistently "lost" or missplaced numerous forms etc and that if they are confident in their squadron's work and professionalism, there SHOULD be no problem with signing for the said article. With that final sentence, they usually "see" the merit in siging, and take it as a challenge.

3. You must be consistent in this. Each and EVERY piece of paper that enters MPF/Finance must be receipted. They will soon EXPECT this procedure and soon you'll notice that their accounting for your items will be most precise. At my base, the MPF Commander actually has an put old school time clock, so that the receipt can be date/time stamped quicker and he's even instituted this for every unit! Finance is not too happy, and bitches about it at Wing Staff meetings. The Wing CC said this to the FM CC a few weeks ago "Major, if your people are doing their job and not losing things, then WHAT do you have to worry about?.

4. In case of outright refusal to sign for the documents, simply write (in front of them) "TSgt Shoe Clerk refused to sign, 0900 hours 17 SEP 07". Do NOT give them the folder. Recon back to the safe house and e-mail all interested parties. Soon they WILL sign for it.

5. This tactic recently saved our bacon. We had submitted a bunch of medals for the squadron, and you guessed it....they are missing. But with the new newly enacted "receipt" procedure, we knew who/what/when/where they were last seen! So the MPF folks searched high and low. scoured the building and found them all hidden in a Shoe Clerk desk that was on leave for 30 days. But of course, they said we NEVER turned them in first.

Hope this helps!

Edited August 16, 2007 by SATCOM

[Stiffler]

Do you personally greet each passenger?

You would be shocked, but usually I do go back and say hello. But my point is, if you wanna "black mark" someones name and not provide them service, I can not provide you service as well.

I love the discussion that happened a few months back. Next time finance (or whomever) makes you do their job, make them plan their next flight with you in PFPS and tell them that until they get it right, they dont get paid.

Finance guy, thanks for discussing with us. Hopefully you can see our frustration and make a difference in your squadron.

[Stiffler]

Satcom....perfect. That is a great story.

[Karl Hungus]

Can the mods create a separate pinned post that lists only the useful regs and such... it would be helpful to have a reg-only thread rather than have to sift through this thread, which has turned into more of a justification of having a thread. Not that this thread is bad or anything, just to make the info more easily accessible.

[JS]

It doesn't exist in one aspect.. ...Once you take a close look at these new "Simplified" rules, you will note the 24-hour loop-hole no longer exists.

I love how the 24-hour RULE, that was designed to simplify and streamline short TDY's, is now considered a loophole that needs to be closed. Being that this is the Air Force, and it's main goal is to get aircrew and airplanes to move efficiently from one place to another, it has to be a bad thing or a "loophole" for aircrews to not have to wait at billeting for 2 hours when they only have 16 total hours on the ground anyway. I guess all of the aircrews need to remember that we are here to support the finance and services people, and not the other way around.