F-15C v F-16D low speed turn radius/turn time

[Guest Jimmy]

Just a quick question:

Without going into classified information, at any given equivalent air-to-air configuration, would I be right to assume that an F-15C can outturn an F-16D at a given low speed and altitude? According to the USAF Fact Sheets (lol), The Eagle allegedly has a higher thrust-to-weight ratio 1.12/1.30 compared to the Block 30 Viper's .0898/1.012 (depending on powerplant) and lower wingloading (only 83%) than the Viper (Block 30, at least). I assume these figures are for an equivalent configuration, and I'm assuming they're not skewed.

So if someone with some aeronautical knowledge could tell me if higher t/w and lower wingloading necessarily translate to a shorter turn time and/or turn radius for two aircraft at the same initial IAS? If so, would this apply for instantaneous turn rate or sustained turn rate or both? Or are there other factors that need to be considered?

Edited May 1, 2007 by Jimmy

[Guest Jimmy]

Thx Rainman.

I mean given the information. Substitute F-15 for Piper Arrow III and F-16 for Cessna 172. Just wondering if higher thrust-to-weight and lower wingloading contribute to faster turn times and tighter turn radii whether instantaneous or sustained and whether or not there are other non-environmental factors that go into this.

You're an experienced aviator. Can't ya give a chump like me some help here?

Edited May 1, 2007 by Jimmy

[GreasySideUp]

Without getting too classified The F-16 beats the F-15 in every regime of every arena every time period dot. Substituting an Arrow or a 172 for the F-16, the F-15 has a slight advantage only negated by the skills of the average private pilot in said arenas.

-j

[Guest rumblefish_2]

NERD!

[Whitman]

the F-15 has a slight advantage only negated by the skills of the average private pilot in said arenas.

-j

I heard something confirming that from a friend. He said when he was at IFF they would have competitions and the F-15 guys would win the BFM flights and the A-10 and F-15E guys would always win the bomb drop contests. He said the poor LGPOS pilots never won a thing. If F-15 pilot trains for his sole mission, air to air, and F-16 pilot trains for A/A and A/G it makes sense that Eagle guys would rule the sky in air to air engagements. I'm curious to know how it would end with two F-15C pilots in different jets.

[Ram]

Oh man...this thread is just chock full of happy knowledge goodness.

Where's my popcorn?

[Hacker]

I heard something confirming that from a friend. He said when he was at IFF they would have competitions and the F-15 guys would win the BFM flights and the A-10 and F-15E guys would always win the bomb drop contests. He said the poor LGPOS pilots never won a thing. If F-15 pilot trains for his sole mission, air to air, and F-16 pilot trains for A/A and A/G it makes sense that Eagle guys would rule the sky in air to air engagements. I'm curious to know how it would end with two F-15C pilots in different jets.

Interestingly, it's not that simple in the AT-38. Being a good BFM'er in the Eagle does not translate directly to the T-38. Similar can be said for dropping bombs.

I think that in general, all IPs were able to perform the IFF missions at an equal level regardless of what MWS they came from. The two exceptions were in some of the CT missions: A-10 guys had a little less proficency at ACM, and F-15C guys had a little less proficiency at CAS.

As far as the standard multirole IFF missions....based on what I saw with IPs dropping "nerf bombs" at IFF, there were two factors that offset each other:

- IPs that came from bomb-dropper MWSs had an immediate ability to "see the wire" and it was easier to make corrections to parameters. On the other hand, the habit patterns established in the individual MWSs did not necessarily translate directly to the AT-38C (especially with Hog guys but also to some extent with Strike Eagle guys).

- IPs that came from Eagles had no pre-established habit patterns and had to learn how to do it from scratch. Once they learned, they had no pre-established habit patterns that detracted from the AT-38C TTPs.

[Steve Davies]

Just a quick question:

Without going into classified information, at any given equivalent air-to-air configuration, would I be right to assume that an F-15C can outturn an F-16D at a given low speed and altitude?

Jimmy

The information you need to get an answer to your question is not classified.

What you need are the 'energy maneuverability' or performance charts for the F-15C and F-16D, and these are contained in the aircrafts' flight manuals. If you want the F-15C and F-16D flight manuals, then you can buy them from eFlight Manuals. Their prices are extortionate, but you'll have the answer you want.

It's all a question of how much you want the answer to your question! Good luck.

[Steve Davies]

Interesting.

I thought the -1 (and -1-1 and -1CF and everything else) was OUO. I wonder why they always made us turn in our old pubs to stan eval to be destroyed.

The website says some of the -1s are unavailable for export. I wonder why that is?

I didn't remember the Ps diagrams being in the -1 series but maybe because that's never where I went to look for that stuff. Can you buy the -34 series on the internet, too?

Can you also buy 3-1.4 and 3-1.5 to get your hands on the Ps diagrams as long as you don't export them? I mean, I would think it would be fine to sell that stuff as long as a person was only trying to satisfy their curiosity.

Curious.

Rainman,

Yes, it is a very strange situation, but one that the US Government has decided to ignore.

Actually, it's a position that the government has had for decades; when I first started collecting flight manuals the inter-web didn't exist and it was all done through collectors - I recall one of my US collector friends telling me that American citizens could actually order Dash-1s from the Air Force's printing office, so long as they were prepared to pay for them.

Of course, that was a long time ago, but things have not change that much. Even though the manuals carry a no export notice on the front, the US government has so far done nothing to those who have exported them.

I've never seen anyone selling MCM 3-1 or Dash-34s on the internet, although I know the latter can be obtained if you know where to look.

The EM diagrams for the F-16 and F-15 are in the Dash-1s, so Jimmy wouldn't need to find the -1-1 to get an answer to his question.

[Steve Davies]

FWIW, the best BFM pilot I've ever seen just happened to be an F-15 O-6.

Can you recall his name, or the year?

[EvilEagle]

Without getting too classified The F-16 beats the F-15 in every regime of every arena every time period dot. Substituting an Arrow or a 172 for the F-16, the F-15 has a slight advantage only negated by the skills of the average private pilot in said arenas.

-j

Wow. Here we go...

Clearly a wealth of knowledge and experience.

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Wow. Here we go...

Clearly a wealth of knowledge and experience.

And clearly sarcasm

[Guest Rainman A-10]

And clearly sarcasm

Sarcasm is a perfectly valid weapon when used within parameters.

Evil's shot was in the heart of the envelope.

[Guest Jimmy]

16 replies and no answer? Bummer.

[osulax05]

Why do you need this info anyway jimmy? If it's that important, why not stroll into the aero department and ask them using the figures you already found?

[Guest Jimmy]

Why do you need this info anyway jimmy? If it's that important, why not stroll into the aero department and ask them using the figures you already found?

Because I'm curious about airplanes, and if this makes me look like a north korean spy who is resorting to asking questions on forums due to intel budget cuts, then I apologize. I'm seriously just wondering if high t/w and low wingloading are the main key to turning ability, because it made sense to me at the time when I tried to visualize this on the standard "four forces of flight" free body diagram. I used the F-16 and F-15 example because it seems counterintuitive that the Eagle being a significantly larger airframe could outturn the F-16, assuming the whole t/w ratio and wingloading thing is right. What I'm thinking right now is that the F-16 might have a higher instantaneous turn rate due to less inertia/mass, but the F-15 may have a better sustained turn rate being able to produce proportionally more thrust and lift per weight. I was just curious if this holds water or not, and since my university doesn't have an aerospace dept., I figured I'd ask you guys.

[ClearedHot]

Jimmy, I am truly sorry no one is willing to answer your question. In reality, they are all wrong…clearly nothing can out turn the AC-130, particularly in a left turning fight.

[Guest rumblefish_2]

The answer is it depends. All the posts above say that.

[aspec]

Jimmy, I am truly sorry no one is willing to answer your question. In reality, they are all wrong…clearly nothing can out turn the AC-130, particularly in a left turning fight.

Haha, nice.

[Guest nstallion]

Why the F-16D and not the C?

[FlyAF]

Rainman,

How well does the A-10 usually fare in BFM? I'd imagine with that straight wing you could maintain a pretty tight turn radius at low altitude, but couldn't make much use of the vertical for very long.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Rainman,

How well does the A-10 usually fare in BFM? I'd imagine with that straight wing you could maintain a pretty tight turn radius at low altitude, but couldn't make much use of the vertical for very long.

A-10s are not allowed to do BFM.

[Beaver]

Any Eagle drivers in here want to fight a big inlet Block 30 at 5000'?

Anyone?

[Guest dtfl]

ClearedHot Posted Yesterday, 02:26 AM

"Jimmy, I am truly sorry no one is willing to answer your question. In reality, they are all wrong…clearly nothing can out turn the AC-130, particularly in a left turning fight."

When you WIC homos start performing the famous "Middleton Manuever" you can out-turn a seagull. :-)

Edited May 4, 2007 by dtfl

[Hacker]

How well does the A-10 usually fare in BFM? I'd imagine with that straight wing you could maintain a pretty tight turn radius at low altitude, but couldn't make much use of the vertical for very long.

As mentioned, the Hog puts on a pretty cool bat-turn and in a 9K setup with the A-10 defensive this ends up giving the appearance of a high-aspect merge! In the F-15E, the vertical was the best answer -- zoom up several thousand feet while the defender was "circling the Hogs" and point the nose down for slashing attacks. There was really no way to actually get to and maintain the control zone.